The only breed out of that list with which I have personal experience is the Brittany.

I think the most easy going of your choices is the Munsterlander. From what I have heard, they are fairly similar to setters in temperament and less bouncy than Britts, softer/more sensitive than pointers. They are bred for "versatility" meaning fur and feather, though, so be prepared for prey drive for anything that moves. Brittanys are awesome and very likely in my future. I call them bouncy (literally but also think high energy, on the GO). Britts are bred for upland birds, but are going to be prey drivey towards other small animals as well. I can't give much input on Pudelpointers--I've read about them but have never met one or known an owner of one.

I think the main thing that I wanted to point out was that if you get field or dual bred, you're going to have to work on an off switch and even then... good luck. Upland dogs are bred to go out on their own and seek game, which means whether it's on a walk or on a hike or in their backyard--they are hunting. If you like to hike, great--your dog will love the "hunting" opp; just don't expect them to stay on a hiking trail if they are field bred.

Of course, a dog out hunting *has* to be able to be recalled, but you will always be "fighting" so to speak their instinct to keep going. Recalls for upland dogs take a lot of training, and constantly needs to be reinforced. Be prepared for a lot of premack type work.

My advice would be to inquire about how far the parents range naturally. It's going to vary from line to line and dog to dog, but use that as a gauge for how far to expect your dog to wander off leash regardless of where you are.

Honestly, unless you are really wanting to do upland hunting instead of just considering it to satisfy your dog, I would suggest something like a Novia Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever for you. Similar size/coat/looks (although different color of course) to a SM or Britt. In general, retrieving breeds are more biddable when off leash because they aren't bred to go seek live game; they're bred to hang out with their person until they are signaled to go get dead game. Much easier to satisfy that retrieving drive (fetch), easier to keep close (again not bred to range), and usually more reliable (with less work) at recalls. Retrievers tend to have a more natural affinity to water, too, since a lot of their game is duck/geese/etc.

 

I've considered the duck toller, it's just the massive shedding that's put me off of the breed but maybe I'll rethink that.

I have no need for my dog to stay ON a trail, it's really just an issue of how far she would go, and whether she'd respect recall. I don't want to be fighting a total uphill battle with recall which is my concern with say a hound.

Layla runs off trail and she's often out of my sight but not for terribly long, and if I call her she usually returns pretty quickly. It's a wonderful characteristic.

I love your suggestion to ask how far the dogs naturally range. In fact I've read that French Brittanys tend to stay close compared to the really fast American dogs but it's not at all easy to find a French Brittany from what I can tell. The American Brittanys are gorgeous but I feel like I'd likely be setting myself up for a mismatch.

Thanks so much for the reply and suggestions. I'll take another look at retrievers.

I'm also open to other types of working dogs if you have any input. Ideally not an extremely heavy shedder. A medium coat that needs the odd bath and daily quick brush is great. I do have a local ****** breeder but not convinced she's all that. Seems many of the herding breeds enjoy water. I love that Layla will swim when I go in, and she'll chase a stick into the water, but she's not in love with every mud puddle.

 

You're welcome. Similar to a Brittany but less "Americanized" would be a Boykin Spaniel. Pretty much the more American field bred you go, the quicker and farther ranging, one of the results of field trial trends (converse is true for European lines). You can find close ranging American & field bred, just look for "foot hunting" sort of descriptions and if they do trials, NSTRA, AKC hunt tests, or NAVHDA for versatiles. AKC and American Field trials tend to be where the speedier/rangier dogs come from.

And of course, the more show bred you go, the less focus there's been on hunting traits, so you might find an ideal companion there.

Are you specifically looking for a puppy? You could consider hunting "washouts" ie sales/rehomes by owners/kennels who didn't make the cut for the field.

BTW, I have a great contact in Brittanys--she shows, trains, trials/tests, and hunts. If you'd like to talk to her more about them, feel free to PM me.

 

I've looked into Boykins but not extensively and the breed is nowhere in Ontario that I know of.

My research into pudelpointers and small munsterlanders says that their range is smaller (dependant on terrain of course) and that they typically "check in" a fair bit which is great. Would you say that can be true of Brittanys too?

Based on your mention of Brittanys I just emailed another breeder near me who seems to show her dogs as much as hunt (or more) and I think she may be more willing to sell to a non-hunter than the other nearby breeder.

Brittanys are truly gorgeous dogs, I really admire their looks. But I remember a friend of mine as a kid whose family had one (that was horribly untrained and completely not exercised) and the dog was just totally bonkers. I'd never considered them since, until recently.

To clarify my timeline - this is research for the future - like after Layla (who's four) most likely.

 

I know someone here who breeds, hunts, and trials Small Munsterlanders. Let me say, if you get them from hunting stock, they NEED something to do. The ones I have seen have almost as careful of a breeding program as Drahts do. Again, I can't speak for all, but the ones I've seen I've called the Border Collies of the Gundogs. People and master oriented as far as gundogs go, but very drivey and they have that NEED for something to do. As crock suggested, maybe a trial washout or former hunter in need of a home may be better depending on your needs (Are you or a family member/friend planning on letting the dog hunt?)

I think I could offer a bit more suggestion if the 50 lb weight limit was a bit higher. I have met some Viszlas with LOVELY temperaments and definite off switches, and as they become more popular (around here they have, at least), it is more possible to find a more "pet quality" dog. Some of the females will be around 55-60 lbs. Shedding is comparable to any similar coated dog. No blowing of coat or undercoat, but average constant little hairs.

Personally Brittanys are hit or miss with me. I don't care for their hunting style, or any flusher for that matter, but temperament wise, I have never met a mean one or one with many inherent psychological issues, save for a few that could have used more excercise.

Water breeds or retrievers are generally easier to handle than pointers, flushers, hounds, or versatile breeds. Breeds for retrieving in my experience tend to exhibit less prey drive and a slightly better recall. That's not to say a Labrador won't chase deer, Ive seen some who would.

That being said, have you thought about an American Water Spaniel? Standard calls for males to be under 40 lb and females less. They are also, from what I have seen, one of a few of what I call "adaptable" gundog breeds, meaning they can have outlets other than hunting and still be mentally satisfied. From what I hear, they can be good at flyball or agility.

American Water Spaniel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, if the weight were more than 50 lbs I would be a lot more help. Or if you decide to go with a hound

 

Thanks BigC I was hoping you'd weigh in.

I might reconsider a viszla. Many are actually tiny. I met a gorgeous pair the other day - the girl was 35 lbs and the boy was 45 or so. I've been trying to find a breed with a bit more coat - just because I kind of hate those little pointy hairs. But no dog is perfect lol!

I wouldn't say the dog would absolutely not be able to hunt but we're not hunters per se.

To be totally honest, I'm not a huge fan of a lot of retrievers, or spaniels so much.... they have their strengths and many people love them. I do appreciate them. Maybe a Duck Toller.

I might meet some of the Brittanys near me. The breeder sells many of her dogs as companions and seems excellent overall. I just need to start meeting some of the dogs I'm interested in - including the small munsterlander and pudelpointers.

Frankly I'd probably be considering a Portuguese Water Dog because they're essentially a retriever but they worked with nets. Not a super high prey drive, non-shedding, good size, smart and fun, like water, good recall. My husband isn't so interested though.

 

You're welcome

If you are able to find them near you, a lot of the French or Italian upland breeds would probably fit your bill as well. If you like a Viszla or something similar, Bracco Italianos, or Braques Francais may work for you. Braques Francais top out around 55 lbs for males. They look similar to German Shorthairs but from what I'm told work closer and are more master oriented. Strangely enough, in Iowa they are developing quite a following. Bracco Italianos run slightly larger than your 50 lb requirement but again, finding a small female may not be impossible. I LOVE the looks of those dogs, somewhere between a hound and a pointer. VERY interesting and versatile breed. But around here they come with quite the price tag.

I guess really, my advice would be this - if there is an interest in a breed that you just can't seem to shake (maybe Brittanys in your case? ) spend the most time looking in that direction. Even if there are moments of uncertainty or areas of your checklist that they don't meet, if you find yourself at least wondering or questioning one breed habitually, it is probably in your best interest to at least seriously consider.

 

I'll take a look at some of those other breeds (thanks again!).

This won't be happening anytime soon so the awesome thing is that we'll find out if we actually do end up getting into hunting. Hubs is really keen on it. But I also know how divided his attention is! So we'll see. He's been thinking about venison but if you're hunting fowl there are so many more options.

On an unrelated note - if you have a hunting dog can you feed them any of what you shoot? I think I've heard that you're not supposed to but I wonder if that's actually based in anything.

As far as the breeds I'm interested in - well yeah you're right I might have to meet some Britts because I am attracted to them, and I think the right dog would probably work. But same goes with the right dog of another breed. I'm still interested in meeting the guy who breeds SMs. He's not far from us and such a nice old German man and very serious about his breeding but also really adores his dogs -- and frankly, if nothing else I'd just love to see them do their thing. Same thing with the guy near me who breeds pudelpointers.

I may end up going back to looking at herding breeds who knows. Or hell if I'm considering a viszla why not a smallish coonhound? Lots of them are pretty petite from what I've seen. Gorgeous dogs, athletic and sweet.

 

Ooh, I love the French Pointers! They are on my dream list.

Layla, do you like wire hairs? Viszlas come in wirehair type but I have never seen a small one (like some smooth coats).
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I've always like pointers (sometimes called English Pointers or just 'bird dogs') since they were the "hunting dog" when I was growing up in south Georgia. Too many people are rough with them, thinking that it makes them "tough" for hunting but, when given a chance and proper training, they're great pets and hunters.

 

I met a Brittany the other day. She was a nice, pretty, active but not hyper little dog. I liked her. She was pretty little! I'd say 28 lbs? Though they do have a boxy torso that's very short so she may have been heavier. They're such a nice compact breed. Her mom says she doesn't like swimming.

I just talked to a guy who lives a few hours from us who breeds Munsterlanders. He's German man who's really serious about his dogs, and just loves them. I asked him every question I could think of.

I even asked him about how drivey their personalities are - after reading BigC's comment about them being the BC of gundogs. He feels they're relaxed in the house and definitely have an off-switch. I'd have to meet his dogs, but it sounds like the breed is great at compartmentalizing - they're in work mode when they're out in the field, and they're not when they're home.

He's open to selling to non-hunting homes because as he says, you really don't know when you sell to a hunting home if they're going to be hunting very actively, and what they'll do with the dog the rest of the time. It seems he'd be as happy to sell to someone who will train the dog to hunt (and/or do other things) and be working with it/taking it out daily rather than hunting a few days a year and then doing nothing with it the rest of the time.

He says Munsters are dogs who will exploit a weakness shamelessly, so although I don't think they're "hard" per se, it sounds like they're not exactly "soft" either, and need a lot of consistency and no bending of the rules. Though he did say some are easier going and some are more challenging in that way.

One thing I was happy to hear is that this breed is naturally inclined to have a relatively close range and check-in regularly. He says his biggest challenge with training for NAVDA is to teach the dogs to range out further and follow their initiative to pursue a scent with some independence. He said if I drove to a trail with one of his dogs, even though that dog doesn't know me, it would stick around. So not velcro dogs by any means but I certainly feel more comfortable that this is a breed that would not be difficult to train a reliable recall.

I've heard that American types of versatile hunting dogs tend to range further and faster than the European dogs. So his feedback supports that. I like that very much.

The other thing is that although he has a non-breeding contract, he doesn't care if or when I spay/neuter.

Seems like bitches range from 38-45 lbs and dogs are a bit bigger. I like the size.

They also shed very little. No double coat. And the hairs they shed are not those tiny spiky hairs that embed themselves in fabric and upholstery.

These are dogs that love to swim as well.

 

Now I just have to meet some dogs. And then forget about them for another 10 years and hope this guy is still alive and breeding when I'm ready lol.

 

Be honest to him that you're looking at getting the dog several years from now. And (assuming he continues to check out) you'd love to get a dog from him, but could he put you in contact with anyother breeders so that you're in the community making contacts.

Can't input otherwise, I don,t know tons about any of these breeds, tough I really liked the Tollers I met!

 

I've let him know this is research for well into the future. So no one is being misled. The breeders I've dealt with all seem happy to hear from someone who's really trying to educate themselves.

He did mention a breeder in New York that he really respects. I'd found the kennel's site and thought their dogs looked great. One of his bitches went to this kennel and she looks like a lovely dog.

As far as other breeders - munsters are essentially a rare breed so there really aren't many options! However I do feel this breeder is excellent. He is adament that he breeds for health, and performance. I wouldn't say that he's breeding to change or advance the breed - he follows the standard rather than setting it. But for a breed that's being revitalized in general and introduced to North America, I feel that's appropriate.

There are around 3,000 munsters in North America. I was surprised to hear that his pups are $1,300, I thought that to be very reasonable. Though a pup would need to be reserved before birth - it would probably take a year or more to get your pup. They come dewormed (twice) with first shots, microchipped, imprinted in the home. I don't think he has dewclaws removed but I've never cared much about that.

 

As far as other breeders - munsters are essentially a rare breed so there really aren't many options! However I do feel this breeder is excellent. He is adament that he breeds for health, and performance. I wouldn't say that he's breeding to change or advance the breed - he follows the standard rather than setting it. But for a breed that's being revitalized in general and introduced to North America, I feel that's appropriate.

I will say that there are definitely other options as far as breeders go - however I would find it hard to justify buying a dog that will be primarily companion from a breeder in another country. There are a number of breeders in the U. I thought that quite a few of these kennels looked pretty good but I haven't contacted them because I'd probably not be buying a pup from any of them.

 

There is a fairly large munster following where I am from. If you are interested I could pm you some contact info of a really great lady who LOVES munsters, trials, hunts, keeps them as pets, etc. Let me know. Glad you had fun looking at breeds and are meeting some great dogs

 

Hi!!:wave:

Can I pipe in for Brittany's ... praise their awesomeness and convince you to get one?!? Brit's are awesome bird dogs... but of all the bird dogs I personally know... dogs my friends have... Brits are THE best family dogs! Sweet personality, very loyal, eager to please, easy to train... and love to sit at your feet and chew a toy. They call Brits the "velco dog" and they are the are THE best companions. Very healthy breed! A Brit is one of those dogs that are just SO cute people can't help but come up to you and ask you about your dog. If you are willing to put the effort into owning a sport dog, then Brits IMHO will give you the most back as far as respect, love and companionship. :happydance:

 

Plott Hounds if you can tolerate tenacity and stubborn dogs. Mine is not a "hunting" dog but she is great with my 7 year old daughter, ignores the cat, loves chew toys, loves being outside, requires lots of exercise, easy to train and is smart as a whip. Outside she is a beast the instinct switch flips. Inside it turns off and she is laid back and mellow. She's happy just to lay on the couch and nap with you.

 

Well, I'm in love with the viszla. Ours died this year at 13 but he was an amazing dog. He didn't shed much. He was really great with our toddler. He could find anything. I miss him like crazy because our other dogs are absolutely worthless at hunting. I watch our weim and wonder what went wrong with him, couldn't find a chicken if I tied it to his nose. I know they are hard to socialize with other animals because they have an exceptionally high prey drive. Ours didn't grow up with cats and he'd eat them if he could catch them. Some people do say they are fine with cats they grow up with. Our viszla was only 50lbs. He was a pretty small guy. Very lean. I never had a problem with recall for him. He was very very smart and extremely eager to please. He was my shadow. They call them velcro dogs. Great, now I'm depressed. Good luck picking!

 

As a kid I secretly liked Viszlas. I say secretly because in our area we were Weim enthusiasts and the Viszla circle were our rivals lol. Kinda like Pepsi vs coke. In all honesty in all the performances I've seen out of both breeds I do think they are equally good dogs I have seen a few duds of either breed.

 

We had both:

I'm not sure if it's because our vis was older or what but he was great and the weim has always been the laziest dog on the planet. Absolutely worthless as a hunter.

We took these 2 to Japan with us and they did really well. They've been country and city dogs. They prefered the country but they did well in Japan. They just didn't like it when a mob of school children swarmed us in amazement. Dogs that big don't end up in Japan. Anyway, our weim is blue which obviously isn't breed standard but he's also 113lbs. He's massive.

 

Both breeds are beautiful dogs. I'd probably go with a viszla since it's easy to find petite dogs. With that said, it looks like we're not staying in the country so this is pure fantasy as it turns out. Sigh.

 

FWIW we had a couple Weims that did ok in town.

Idk how small you could find them though, the ones I'm talking about were some real bruisers, about 85-90 lb a piece...females do run considerably smaller but I'm not sure how small, as we never had any.

ETA: Also FWIW, I don't live on a farm or in the country either, but I will be getting a Draht. Neither the breeder nor any breed enthusiasts are worried though, as it sounds my energy outlets will be more than sufficient. If you tire the dog out enough, he will just need enough room to sleep at home

 

German Shorthair pointer, I have been a pheasant hunter for quit a few years, I"m on my 3rd pointer, All my dogs performed well in the field with minimal training, They will hold a point til the cows come home, When they flush with a command you can almost see the dissapointment when i miss, I never have to pull burrs out there coat because of short hair and don"t shed much. The best part is they are a super family dog and don"t have a mean bone in there body, But they need a big yard to run. If they cant burn off there energy they will get a little ancy. They love the water, I have a pool that she is in most of the day in the summer. First thing in the morning she goes right to the pool, She was swimming at just 3 months old like a pro, But all 3 of mine did also. But this just my opinion

 

I know this is an ancient thread but I just wanted to reply once more because I've been strongly leaning toward a viszla for next-dog. Or a small standard poodle. There are some great breeders in Ontario for each breed. It's actually easier to find a small viszla than a standard poodle - viszlas seem like they can be more compact actually, and more "square" in proportion (even though spoos are supposed to be square).

I suspect a spoo would be a little easier to satisfy in terms of exercise, and I adore spoo faces. Non-shedding would be nice, but I also like the idea of a dog that requires very little grooming.

Might someday get one of each, probably when we're back in the country. Or just do another rescue lol!