Is he neutered? Marking behaviour often starts around this age in un-neutered males. Don't let it become a habit or it will be really hard to break, so if he is indoors, he must be supervised closely. Block access to 'favourite ' places too, and use an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell. Leave it down for 10 minutes to get to work before you wipe it up to let the enzymes do their job.

 

He is currently un-neutered but the vets have said he may need to be neutered if the antibiotics do not work and a urine test doesn't show anything.

We do use enzymatic cleaner that came with our carpet cleaner but I think we may need to revert to Simple Solution or Out! Pet and Stain which we used during toilet training

 

Its not unheard of for dogs, especially young dogs to regress, as yours has done. Once your Vet has ruled out any medical problems, you just need to go back to house training 101 as a refresher.

 

Why haven't they done a urine test already? It's not as if it's a big deal. I've never had a dog that was suspected of having a UTI where they didn't take a urine sample (or I brought them one) and take a look at it right at the vet clinic. It's not some super expensive test that means sending a sample out to a lab. That comes if indeed it's a UTI and you decide it's worthwhile to get a culture and sensitivity test to see exactly what bug it is and what antibiotic it's most sensitive to. Usually vets just prescribe an antibiotic that's generally effective against common bladder infections and don't do more unless that first prescription doesn't clear things up.

If it's not a UTI but a behavioral problem, the best thing to do is go right back to treating him the same way you did for original house training -- confine him any time you can't keep an eagle eye on him, take him out often and go with him to make sure he empties his bladder, etc.

Good luck. Some boys really can be determined about this kind of thing.

 

We couldn't understand why the vet didn't do a urine test either. The vet wouldn't examine him as he was 'distressed', she even made us put a muzzle on him which I wasn't a fan of (he is normally very friendly and likes people and other dogs, just not vets it seems).

Now it's a few days since the vet appointment I personally don't think he has a UTI - this morning he was let outside first thing, he did a wee and poo, ran around a bit, came back in and had a drink, because we had closed the door he weed in the kitchen. He loves being in the garden but generally we have to call him back in as he wants to stay outside and play. It appears to be tactic to let him outside?

 

There's a few things in your post above.

First, lots of dogs that are friendly are not happy in the vet surgery. The smells, unfamiliar person, and being handled while possibly in pain all make it a challenging experience for them. You can help with that by making sure you get them accustomed to handling, by regularly checking teeth, feet, ears etc.

Second, a muzzle isn't a bad idea - introduced properly, a muzzle is no different to any other piece of kit, like a harness or collar. And it keeps the vet safer with nervous dogs. If you are interested in doing this, The Muzzle Shop has a great selection of nice, lightweight muzzles and this video will help -

Third, you know what I said upthread about watching him like a hawk, supervising him closely?

because we had closed the door he weed in the kitchen.

If necessary, until you have broken the habit, keep him on a lead in the house so you are even more aware of what he is doing and can prevent him before he starts. There will have been some warning - a pause, a look at the peeing place, a sniff - but it may have been very subtle, so learn his 'tells'. If you can't recognise them, confine him to an area that is easy to clean.

Fourth, if he loves being out in the garden so much, does he get enough stimulation? What does a typical day look like?

 

Do you have a Pets at Home near you? Their vets work supermarket hours so you might be able to get something with them.

 

His vet is a Vets4Pets, Pets At Home affiliated.

 

I just meant that the ones that are based in the Pets at Home stores work the same hours, so evenings and weekends. It might have been easier to get an appointment .

 

Hi all, an update:

My dog stopped doing this for a while after taking antibiotics, but now he's doing it again and it's worse than ever. He wees indoors every day, despite having access to outside, the door can be wide open and he'll still wee indoors. He even weed indoors immediately after his walk today. He does wee outside aswell, he often shows no signs of needing a wee but actually cocks his leg and wees, in all different areas, once up the frame of his food bowl. We clean with enzymatic cleaner spray and carpet cleaners, he goes outside regularly. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks

 

If he stopped after being on antibiotics, that would point towards it being an infection. And, as you likely know, if the first course of antibiotics doesn't kill off the bacteria, you may need a second course.

 

I agree with the post above. Very often more than one course of antibiotics is needed to completely clear up a UTI.
Also...has your vet done a culture on your dog's urine in order to determine exactly what strain of bacteria is causing the UTI?
This is a very important step to take at this point, in order to make sure that the correct antibiotic is being given.
(Actually, I always ask for this when there's a UTI, so that the vet knows from the very first that the antibiotic is the right one to eradicate the specific bacterial infection).

From what you are describing, it definitely sounds to me like a physical problem with his not being able to hold it, rather than a behavioral one.

 

Unfortunately one of the big issues with UTI's both human and canine, is the bacteria has become resistant to many of the tried and true antibiotics. Often that is why the first round of antibiotics doesn't knock it out and a second round, usually of a different antibiotic will. Antibiotic resistant strains of bacterial is becoming more and more of a problem.

 

Hi, vet hasn't done a culture yet. He's currently using a UTI medicine/supplement by Immal that i purchased online and if it continues he'll go back to the vet. As previously mentioned in this thread the vet hasn't impressed me so far with how they have treated him but unfortunately I do not have another accessible vet in my area.

 

Just throwing this out there, but I used to have a female that was prone to UTIs and found that adding a tiny bit of apple cider vinegar to her fresh (not kibble) food stopped the UTIs in their tracks. Alternatively, you can add it into their drinking water, instead. I think this works for some dogs because their urine is too alkaline, typically from a diet too high in plant ingredients (her diet at that point was still too high-carb), and the ACV helps acidify the urine so the bad bacteria causing the infection can't survive.

 

Sounds like something worth trying. The very worst it could do is cause no harm, even if it didn't in this case resolve the issue.

 

We had a very similar situation, only he was a little less than a year old. His behavior was almost the same - he asks to go outside, plays, sometimes does his business, but then a few minutes later at home he suddenly starts marking again. Like you, we first thought about UTI, consulted a veterinarian, took tests - everything turned out to be normal. After that, we came to the conclusion that the problem was behavioral. A consultation with a dog trainer really helped us. It turned out that our dog started marking territory because he felt too responsible for the house - as if it was his "post". We were advised to temporarily limit access to the areas where he marked (the sofa, kitchen, etc.), use pheromone diffusers and increase control when going outside - not just letting him out, but accompanying him, praising him specifically for "pee", and not for playing.

 

We had a very similar situation, only he was a little less than a year old. His behavior was almost the same - he asks to go outside, plays, sometimes does his business, but then a few minutes later at home he suddenly starts marking again. Like you, we first thought about UTI, consulted a veterinarian, took tests - everything turned out to be normal. After that, we came to the conclusion that the problem was behavioral. A consultation with a dog trainer really helped us. It turned out that our dog started marking territory because he felt too responsible for the house - as if it was his "post". We were advised to temporarily limit access to the areas where he marked (the sofa, kitchen, etc.), use pheromone diffusers and increase control when going outside - not just letting him out, but accompanying him, praising him specifically for "writing", and not for playing.

Thank you, this all sounds like good advice

 

Hi everyone - I have an update on this:

Unfortunately the weeing indoors has continued. It still weeing and scent marking (not leaking out, actually cocking his leg), at no particular time or place.

Today we collected a urine sample for his 1st appointment at his new vet. The sample was tested - all clear.

He was aggressive towards the Vet to the point of the vet not being able to touch him. After explaining the indoor weeing issue (and mentioning another lesser issue - stealing our possessions and resources guarding them with aggression) the new has said the following:

• all issues (including weeing indoors) point to behaviour issues. He is behaving the way he is because he thinks he's 'the boss'.
• he has told us he needs to see a dog behaviourist / trainer as he could get worse and cause someone injury.
• he is marked as 'aggressive' at the vets for their safety and will only be seen if necessary (or behaviourist refers him)

I must stress that he only shows these signs of aggression at the vets (and occasionally when hes resource guarding) and it only started after a particular appointment at his previous vet.

Does anyone have any experience of this or similar? Thanks

 

He is behaving the way he is because he thinks he's 'the boss

I'm afraid your vet is a bit outdated. That theory was thoroughly debunked and disproven years ago. But, in fairness, you consult a vet for medical issues, not behavioural ones, so you don't need him to be an expert in that any more than you would expect a plumber to be able to fix your car. As long as you don't pay attention, there's no harm done.

I agree though that it may well be behavioural BUT I suspect a lot of this may be rooted in anxiety.

Behaviour at the vets - a frightened dog will behave aggressively, to frighten or drive off what they see as a threat. Its a pity your vet doesn't know that. Did you consider the muzzle, suggested earlier? If not, please do. It won't fix his behaviour, but it will keep everyone safer. To address this behaviour, I'd try to find a sympathetic vet who understands this is based in fear, not thinks your dog is trying to be boss, and do lots of non-appointment visits for ear rubs and treats (so his ears are touched), giving a paw for treats (so his feet are touched), getting pets for treats (so his body is touched) etc.

Resource guarding - again, an unconfident animal will guard because he fears it's going to be taken away. To be fair, guarding what you have is a deep rooted survival instinct, it could be the difference between life and death, but in a dog lacking confidence it may be more pronounced.

The marking could also be based in a lack of confidence (although the fact it stopped when he was on antibiotics makes that either less likely or coincidence). But, for some dogs, marking their 'territory' is their way of telling others it's theirs, not out of dominance but out of a need to stake a claim in case someone else comes along, if that makes sense. Have any of the other approaches, like blocking access, helped at all? It may even be habit now.

Whether you need a behaviourist - it wouldn't do any harm, and your insurance may cover it. But please, please find someone who is more up to date than your vet. If you find someone, and would like us to check their web page for red flags, please shout out. Or, if you say roughly where you live, we might know someone in your area.

 

I agree with everything that JoanneF says above. Your dog sounds not aggressive to me, but frightened. He is not trying to "be the boss".

If you do get help from a trainer, please be sure that it is someone who understands this. Do not use any aversive corrections with him like a choke collar, electronic collar, or harsh words or punishments, as that will only make things a lot worse. I have a dog who tried to bite one vet tech, and now I put a muzzle on him when we go to the vet. All the people are more relaxed this way and while my dog is not necessarily more relaxed at least the people are not making him more frightened because of their own fear of getting bitten.

 

Thank you both JoanneF and Madra. My feeling is that he's frightened of the Vet too. His behaviour at the vet seemed to change after a particular appointment at his previous practice where he was taken into the back room for a couple of hours and ever since then he has shown reluctance to enter and will be aggressive towards vets.

With regards to weeing indoors, I have no idea. He wees indoors and outdoors. He does it most days now.

The resource guarding seems to me to be triggered by boredom. He often does it more regularly if we haven't been anywhere of interest for a while or we're not paying attention to him for a period. We can usually coax him away with a distraction (toy/treat).

We have been looking at trainers / behaviourists today and we're struggling to make an informed decision. I asked the vet if he could refer us to someone and he said he couldn't as it would show bias towards a separate business. Just to reassure you Madra we wouldn't use anyone that would use any of the punishments that you have mentioned.

Admittedly I have shouted once or twice at the worst, most frustrating occasions at home, most recently when he weed in the middle of the sofa (knowing it doesn't work!) and regretted it afterwards.

Despite all of this he is mostly a well behaved dog who sleeps well on the whole, walks well and interacts in a friendly way with me, my family, strangers and other dogs - although he wants to play all the time! Lol

 

I may be way off base with this but didn't want to not mention it, just in case.

triggered by boredom. He often does it more regularly if we haven't been anywhere of interest for a while or we're not paying attention to him for a period

Does he have an 'off' switch, can he settle calmly if asked to?

 

I forgot to say - we are in the WS10 area of the West Midlands. Behaviourists seem to want to do a video call and then sessions at my home, which is difficult for me to do as im usually at work weekday daytimes and I'm not sure what benefit a video call with someone will do. I'm going to go with a behaviourist or trainer but it's just deciding which one.

 

I asked the vet if he could refer us to someone and he said he couldn't as it would show bias towards a separate business

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Many vets will work with behaviourists.

However in this case, maybe not a bad thing.

we are in the WS10 area of the West Midlands

My geography isn't great but I really, really recommend Sarah Shelton Porter at Through the Dog's Eyes.

You really couldn't get much better. Tell her I suggested her, it won't get you a discount but hopefully she will be pleased.

https://throughthedogseyes.com/

 

Thanks for the recommendation - Burntwood is a bit far for me but I may need to weigh up my options first.

 

It might help a bit; if he resource guards when he is bored, learning to self settle might give him another choice.

Kikopup has a couple of good videos on training it -