Are you referring to breeds in general or specically to extremes w/in a particular breed? It's one thing to generalize that breeding a particular breed is cruel and quite another to say that breeding animals within that breed who are extreme is wrong.

 

You can decide that for yourself. I'm just looking for opinions : )

 

I think it's cruel to breed dogs within a breed to extrems, example the GSD. Some breeders go to far and end up with dogs that walk on their hocks. I've also seen chihuahua's that have been bred to be so small, that there eyes almost pop out of their head. So breeding brachycephalic dogs, in my opinion is the same as the other 2 examples I gave. Basically your breeding a dog to die early. It should not be done, and those that do should be ashamed That is my opinion.

 

Thanks for your reply!

Do you feel the same way about breeding super large dogs?

How about breeding dogs that are extremely susceptible to bloat (large dogs with deep chests)?

 

Hmm.... breeding large dogs doesn't bother me, unless it's puppy mills or BYB's that are breeding "king sized doberman, GSD" or "giant malamutes"...ect... I could shoot those types of people in the leg. As for breeding dogs that susceptible to bloat, also doesn't bother me since that is a possibility in larger domestic animals like a dog, horse, or cattle. The only time it bothers me is when someone is breeding a dog with known higher risk (from lineage) just for money, not to further the breed.

 

Cool, thanks for your input : )

 

i heard that an english bulldog that won best in breed or something like that actually had to be c-sectioned from its mother because they bred his head to be so big... that is morally wrong and stupid, personally, i dont like "designer breeds either, labradoodles for instance or any of the breeds mixed together purposefully for looks... i dunno my opinion

 

Yeah, a lot of breeds have to be C-sectioned a good percentage of the time:

Border Terrier
Boston Terrier
Boxer
Brussels Griffon
Bulldog
Bullmastiff
Chihuahua
Cocker Spaniel
Dachshund
Dogue de Bordeaux
English Toy Spaniel
French Bulldog
Neapolitan Mastiff
Pekingese
Pomeranian
Pug
Scottish Terrier
Sealyham Terrier
Yorkshire Terrier



A lot of those breeds are brachycephalic, but some just have narrow hips and some are prone to uterine inertia. Bulldogs have to have C-sections 90% of the time.



It's the same way with miniature horses. Although people don't typically give horses C-sections, they do have a lot of foaling problems. The death rate for miniature horse foals is 36%!

 

I'm not a fan of a lot of the extremes in dog breeds.

Pushed in faces is one I personally find unattractive (while I recognize that lots of people think it's cute), and I feel sorry for the dogs who can't breathe properly.

 

I don't have much use for any breeder who breeds dogs to the extreme
Being brachycephalic doesn't automatically mean you have breathing problems or that your life is shortened.

A good breeder will try to improve the breed while trying to stay as close to the standard as possible, but NOT at the expense of their health. Breeders who are oblivious to the comfort and long term health issues that come with going to the extreme are not in it for the breed, they are "in it" for themselves; fame, prestige, results and the almighty buck.

I have 2 very well bred brachy dogs who come from a very thoughtful breeder who has been breeding for over 30 years and the vast majority of her dogs do not suffer any ill health and are not impaired by breathing /eye /heart problems. This is not achieved by luck or by chance. The dogs in her lines outlive the normal life expectacy for the breed by about 4 yrs as well. She still wins in the ring, but not at the expense of the dog's quality of life. I believe that some "standards" should be re-written to allow for more compassionate guidelines for those to adhere to, but ultimately the choice is there; to breed thoughtfully and win often with healthy dogs or to breed with greed and a strong lack of compassion and win all the time. I believe the UK has adopted such a policy in regards to pug-nosed dogs and the handlers are either penalized for the dogs condition (too flat - breathing difficulties) or they are disqualified from the ring. I could be mistaken but I remember reading something to that effect a few years ago.

I just wanted to point out that there are extremist on the other end of the spectrum too. There are those who think all brachycephalic dogs, dogs with heart problems, dog with higher HD occurance, unnatural whelpers etc should all be eradicated and those people are IMO just as dangerous to the world as those who breed to the extreme. Destroying a living creature that needs improvement is not the answer...education, altering certain aspects of the more harmful "standards" and proper, thoughtful and ethical breeding practices are.

 

I can't do anything but ditty Mischiefs post 100% (minus the me having brach dogs )

 

^^ I agree, also wanted to point out that what I mean by brachycephalic dog, is the extreme cases were the dogs brain gets squished, I have no problem with the ones that breed to further the breed and do it responsibly, making sure that the dogs are healthy.

Also wanted to say, what I meant about a shorter life is that a lot of people that have extrem dogs, will not be able to pay foer costly surgeries if their dog gets ill/injured. even if they can, these surgeries can be tricky and surviving the surgery might be a ratio of 70% dead -30% survive. bnot that they will have a shorter life span, but that the way they are might increase that chance that they need surgery that people can't afford and either give the dog up or euthinize it, or they do surgery and might not survive...

Just wanted to clear that up... If what i said was confusing before... I don't know if this is any clearer... but you get my point right?

 

Thanks for all the replies! I was very interested to see how people feel about this. I'm also interested to see if anybody doesn't know about the health problems associated with brachycephaly.





You guys should hear about HYPP (Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis) in horses. It's a terrible disease that causes horses to have periodic attacks of muscle spasms, during which they have no control of their body, often fall down, and have to gasp for air. Most eventually die a horrible death of suffocation. They can't be ridden because they could fall down on top of you at any moment and not be able to stand up.

And get this - people actually breed for this disease. You see, the side effect of the muscle spasms is huge muscle mass. Huge muscle mass is what Quarter Horse people look for in conformation classes.

HYPP is a dominant trait and is 100% avoidable. It all came from one single stallion, and horses with him in their pedigree can be tested for a mere $50. The test will tell you if your horse is homozygous, heterozygous, or negative. There are SO many stallions standing at stud that are homozygous for HYPP.

This is an extreme example of a horse that's homozygous for HYPP:
http://www.bertonqh.com/images/sir_cool_skip_running_1_6_06.jpg

I would go into the joint problems caused by all that extra weight put on those fine bones and tiny hooves, but most of the horses don't live long enough to experience the joint problems.

 

And get this - people actually breed for this disease. You see, the side effect of the muscle spasms is huge muscle mass. Huge muscle mass is what Quarter Horse people look for in conformation classes.

I had a quarter horse growing up and she was NOT what you posted below.

This is an extreme example of a horse that's homozygous for HYPP:
http://www.bertonqh.com/images/sir_cool_skip_running_1_6_06.jpg

That is extremely disgusting and disturbing and I have no clue how that is ok and humane to breed for this disease....Is this happening in the U.S?

 

I had a quarter horse growing up and she was NOT what you posted below.

Most Quarter Horses don't have HYPP. It's mostly found in halter horses.

This was the world champion halter horse in 2005: http://www.midgehavenfarm.com/images/graphics/readyfortheweekendphoto2.jpg

They basically just pick the horse with the most muscle and the biggest butt. The horse actually has terrible conformation and would never hold up in any sport.

That is extremely disgusting and disturbing and I have no clue how that is ok and humane to breed for this disease....Is this happening in the U.S?

Yeah, I'd say the US is where you find 99.99% of HYPP cases.

The stock-type halter horse industry is insane. Even the horses that don't have HYPP are bred to have enormous amounts of muscle sitting on top of stick-straight legs and tiny hooves.

I just did a quick google search and as of 2007 the AQHA requires testing for the trait and will not register them is homozygous for the trait

Yes, but they can still be bred and the foals can still be registered if they're heterozygous. Some breeders have a "Get-a-homozygous-foal-and-get-free-breed-backs-until-you-get-a-heterozygous-foal" deal. And then you have homozygous foals getting dumped or sold to unsuspecting families.

APHA and PtHA have done nothing about it, and neither has AHHA.

And the most frustrating thing is that if nobody bred a horse that was positive for HYPP (either homozygous or heterozygous), the disease would be completely eradicated after one generation.

 

I just did a quick google search and as of 2007 the AQHA requires testing for the trait and will not register them is homozygous for the trait

 

A couple links I found awhile ago that I keep at hand for when people tell me keira isnt a purebred because her back isnt angled like "normal" ones...