Was it a designated off-leash area or are dogs supposed to be on lead in that park?

 

Yeah, the whole park permits dogs off-lead, as it’s far from roads, etc. I’ve rarely seen a dog on-lead there, though obviously, that assumes that they are under control while off lead.

 

I assume she yelled at you because she knows her dog has issues with other dogs, she was scared of the outcome when she saw your dog approach, and her fear translated itself to anger. It's hard to reason with people who have gone over threshold.

 

It sounds like you obviously didn't mean anyone any harm and, unfortunately, some lessons are learned in the least comfortable way.

From personal experience, I'll admit that the owner's reaction could very well be one of fear for her own dog. As the owner of two "pitbulls", I can openly admit that there is always a fear for our dogs when out in public.

My dogs are VERY well behaved, but - honestly - I always ensure that their interactions with other dogs are very tightly controlled. Neither of my dogs has ever aggressed another dog, however, any time a fight breaks out among dogs, it is ALMOST ALWAYS blamed on the "pitbull" - regardless of whether another dog initiates it. Uncontrolled interactions with an off-leash dog could, in that sense, possibly result in the confiscating and / or euthanizing of our beloved dogs. So -yes - that fear can absolutely result in yelling, even if not entirely deserved.

It could possibly be due to experiences the dog has had in the past, too. I know Loki (while on leash) was attacked by a small off-leash dog at a dog beach. Fortunately, he handled it well and just shook the little devil off (who had, of course, latched right onto his face), but his trust in smaller dogs has certainly been altered from the experience.

Personally, we (my dogs and I) don't do dog parks (the dog beach was a one-off and certainly did nothing to change my opinion on the whole thing)... you never know what kind of training (or lack thereof) other dogs will have... or what kind of bad behaviors or injuries your dog's could pick up as a result of such interactions.

I know it's easy to get excited and focused on your own dog and their new experiences, but always remember that other dogs (and owners) come with other personalities... all of which might not be positive or safe for your dog. Granted, if someone feels their dog it not safe, it's probably not the best idea to be at an off-leash dog area either... but who knows? Maybe they're trying to build upon exposures for their dog, too? It might be your safest bet to introduce yourself and talk to the owners of prospective playmates before unleashing your pup.

Either way, don't be so hard on yourself. Raising pups comes with all kinds of new experiences and we learn something new with each of them

 

Was the reaction really proportionate? Is there any responsibility to train bigger dogs not to react aggressively, even when little dogs behave badly?

Should the other owner not been cussing a blue streak; sure. However, considering how bad it could have been, with one dog mauled, a fight, or an euthanasia, etc., it makes sense the other owner was so upset.


But I really want to point at the second part. Yes, a significant chunk of dog owners do try to ensure to not have their dogs react aggressively/reactive. Yes, it is a responsibility. But not everyone does it effectively, it's not something that is rehabilitated or conditioned away with the snap of our fingers (it takes consistent work!), and surely you don't expect dog reactive/aggressive dogs to be locked inside their houses and never allowed outside or just to their yard until they magically stop doing it.

And as someone who is working on reactivity after multiple attacks, this could have sent their training back significantly.

But at the end if the day, no one was physically or irreparably hurt. It might take some time to decompress, but it will be ok. We've all made mistakes, part of being human.

 

I've been on both sides of this as the handler of a bum-rushed reactive dog (plenty of times) and as the handler of a bum-rushing dog (rarely, but just enough to keep me honest and a bit humble). What helps me is not to dwell on who was right or wrong, and just accept my part of the responsibility and be accountable (including training my own dogs, picking environments wisely and practicing how to communicate with other owners, if necessary walking away if they make me feel uncomfortable).

I do feel very strongly that dogs in need of more space have every right to be out and about with their people, if they are under control, and that they have a right not to be bumrushed by other dogs, whether they are friendly, curious or just plain impolite. I assure you that a lot of us work very hard to get our dogs to be neutral and safe. I really appreciate it when owners of friendly dogs keep their dogs under control and give me space to keep my dogs feeling comfortable and safe - if I happen to be working with a reactive one or even if I just want to practice being neutral and calm around other dogs with a non-problematic pup.

Train your pup, use a long line if you're not sure she is ready for a certain environment, and try not to dwell too much on mistakes, your own or other people's. Ideally, mistakes can energize you to commit and do better.

 

I hear what you’re saying and I obviously take responsibility for my error, which is why Nina won’t be off the lead there again - at least not for a long time. I don’t know, I’ve never had a situation before where an error that I have fixed without damage, and which I was sincerely sorry for, has led to me being verbally abused, and all the sympathy has been with the person yelling. (Including like, when I was learning to drive, and a mistake might have put people in danger. Or even when working with kids - usually it feels like accepting you were wrong is enough for most people.) It just doesn’t feel like there’s much grace for people making this kind of training mistake with dogs..

It feels like there’s a mindset of, “this is what a good/responsible dog owner does, and anyone who doesn’t do it is bad and wrong”, that seems to justify total disgust if someone screws up - even when they’re trying to learn. It makes me feel like I can’t take Nina out around people because any slip up will mean huge judgement (and it’s a fairly small community, so it will be remembered). Usually I have this sense of safety to make mistakes and not be perfect because I can go, “it’s ok, you’re learning, and if you screw up, you can apologise and people will understand”. But it feels like that isn’t the case here, and it makes me really, really nervous.

FWIW, I can’t take Nina out on a long lead because she has slipped out of all the extra small harnesses I’ve tried for her, and when I altered one to fit her, I then couldn’t get it off and had to cut her out of it. But would one have really helped? If she had the length in it to rush the staffy, I wouldn’t have been able to shorten it as quickly as I called her back, would I?

 

FWIW, I can’t take Nina out on a long lead because she has slipped out of all the extra small harnesses I’ve tried for her, and when I altered one to fit her, I then couldn’t get it off and had to cut her out of it. But would one have really helped? If she had the length in it to rush the staffy, I wouldn’t have been able to shorten it as quickly as I called her back, would I?

A bit of a side note, but yes, there is a bit of an art and a learning curve to using a long line effectively.

If you are interested in using it (I use long lines a lot, so it's one of the first things that comes to mind, but there are also plenty of other ways to train if that's not your preference), the key is to first teach the puppy/dog to accept the harness with a slow introduction and a lot of work in a low distracting environment. Once they are ok with the harness, I introduce a very light long line and again, I go very slow. Once the puppy doesn't even really notice that they are wearing a harness and a long line anymore, and when they can respond to light leash pressure by redirecting to me and coming to me, still in a super calm environment, this is my cue that I can try a slightly more challenging situation. I try to never give them a reason to try to wiggle out of a harness. If they start trying, I just pick them up and leave or find a calmer spot - trying to wiggle out of a harness is not a disaster, but it is information for me that I went too fast and that they are actually not ready for that level yet, i need to back up a bit.

As far as the distance from triggers goes, I think about it this way: I want to be far enough so that if the puppy makes it to the end of the line, they are still far enough from the thing of interest that they can still focus on me and respond to me, and not loose their puppy brain. That means some things I will let them reach and explore, and others I will keep a lot of distance from, not just so that they can't reach them, but enough distance so that they don't lock their focus on them, lunge at them, bark, try to pull towards etc. When they reach the end of the line, they need to be far/close enough to be able to still be calm. (I do my best to stop them slowly, so that they don't hit the end with full strength.)

Of course it's very important to have a harness that fits and that they can't wiggle out of, just to be safe. We've used kitty harnesses for very small dogs - depending on the shape of a dog, they can work great.

 

Perspective.

Nobody got hurt or damaged. Nina came back to you. You got yelled at, but don't let one person's canine equivalent of road rage put you off. Chalk it up to experience, and celebrate your wins with Nina because there are plenty of those.

 

Thanks! I am oversensitive to be honest, especially about this because it feels important to be a “good dog owner”. But I think I’m finding that, much like anything else, you do your best and are a good dog owner most of the time. But no one (or very few) manage always.

 

Emma Judson, the behaviourist we often refer to, has a saying.

As soon as you say 'my dog would never ...' along they come, nevering like they've never nevered before.

 

I love this!

 

@lulu05 , that person shouldn't have yelled and sworn at you. That is virtually never called for, and was entirely inappropriate, so you are not in any way wrong for feeling that they shouldn't have done that. You did not "deserve" to be yelled at, nor did you deserve to have your little dog attacked.

You made a mistake that many new dog owners make.....thinking the dog is farther along in their training than they are. It was only a mistake, and since no one actually got hurt it's best if you can put this incident behind you. You learned from it and you won't be letting Nina off lead again.

Personally, if I were in your place, I'd never let my small dog off leash in an area where unknown dogs are, whether they are on leash or not, because you never know who will be there, with what kind of dog. Since not everyone is responsible with their dogs, I feel I have to be 200% responsible with mine to keep them safe. This is why I never go to dog parks, or let my dogs off leash in a place where there are known to be other dogs. dogs, mine included, are just too unpredictable.

I think the person with the other dog screamed at you out of fear......fear that their dog might hurt yours, and then there's be hell to pay. I don't blame the person for being afraid but yelling and swearing at someone is never the right response.

Just chalk this up to a learning experience, and try not to let it bother you too much. It won't happen again, so you can feel OK about that.

 

@lulu05 , that person shouldn't have yelled and sworn at you. That is virtually never called for, and was entirely inappropriate, so you are not in any way wrong for feeling that they shouldn't have done that. You did not "deserve" to be yelled at, nor did you deserve to have your little dog attacked.

You made a mistake that many new dog owners make.....thinking the dog is farther along in their training than they are. It was only a mistake, and since no one actually got hurt it's best if you can put this incident behind you. You learned from it and you won't be letting Nina off lead again.

Personally, if I were in your place, I'd never let my small dog off leash in an area where unknown dogs are, whether they are on leash or not, because you never know who will be there, with what kind of dog. Since not everyone is responsible with their dogs, I feel I have to be 200% responsible with mine to keep them safe. This is why I never go to dog parks, or let my dogs off leash in a place where there are known to be other dogs. dogs, mine included, are just too unpredictable.

I think the person with the other dog screamed at you out of fear......fear that their dog might hurt yours, and then there's be hell to pay. I don't blame the person for being afraid but yelling and swearing at someone is never the right response.

Just chalk this up to a learning experience, and try not to let it bother you too much. It won't happen again, so you can feel OK about that.

Thank you! I think this is right. It’s hard too, when you get defensive of your own dog, and yourself. You sort of want to go, “hey, it wasn’t that bad!” (No matter what “it” was.)
And that is probably the feeling of the other dog’s owner too - “well how is it my dog’s fault when other dogs… He’s not that bad - it’s them!”

After a day to think about it, I think it was just the fear, plus the total mortification that overwhelmed me a bit. Really, it just means I need to take a bit of a step back and help Nina with listening and hearing commands when there are doggy distractions about. Luckily, after searching for ages in vain, I have found a puppy class starting in mid-July, 15 minutes away from us. So, even though Nina will know many of the cues and commands, she’ll be able to practice them around other dogs, safely.

She’s been excellent today at resisting her desire to run up and mob every human that comes her way (on the lead this is just a lot of pulling and jumping around, but still not great.) But she is for sure making good progress at being willing to sit and wait with me, which is good! (Though, basically as soon as I say the release word, she goes bounding off after the humans and gets caught on the end of her lead again… I need to work on making her forget, while she sits, and takes a treat gently, etc!) Still, the point is, it all feels much less hopeless today.

 

@lulu05 , you took this incident hard and are thinking about it because you care so much for your dog, and are working so hard on trying to make sure you are doing everything right. This is a fine quality you have, and is something to be proud of. I only wish that more dog owners were as conscientious as you are.

Just remember that everyone makes mistakes. I have trained dogs in several different ways for many decades and I know a little bit about dogs. And I still make mistakes, even with my own dogs. When I do, I feel like the worst fool on earth, because I think I have no excuse for making a mistake with as many years and trainings and classes and seminars and just experience as I have had. But when I mess up I just have to chalk it up to more learning, and learning is always good. When the lesson comes soft, meaning that no one is actually missing or hurt, then I just focus on being grateful for the lesson.

 

I agree with everything that has been said so far in this thread, but just wanted to address this one statement from maybe a different perspective.

And also, not to be awful, but if her dog only refrains from attacking smaller dogs if they behave well, which I assume was her concern, that’s also problematic… Like, I was wrong to let that happen, but surely her dog shouldn’t attack smaller dogs regardless?

You shouldn't expect any dog to just tolerate other impolite dogs, especially if they are complete strangers. And there is a big difference between attacking and correcting, but to an untrained eye they can look similar. I have a dog selective dog, who is very good with other dogs as long as they mind their manners. If the new company acts impolitely, she will correct them appropriately. However, new dogs can take this correction differently and the situation can escalate quickly if not monitored (which you can't do from a distance). The dog doing the correcting can be seen as problematic, but as long as they aren't overcorrecting then really its the rude dog that's the issue.

Think of it this way - if someone you didn't know approached you and offered to shake your hand, you'd likely accept it and return the gesture. However, if someone ran up to you and tried to crash tackle hug you, then it would be socially acceptable for you to shove them away and not act as enthusiastic. Just some food for thought

 

I agree with everything that has been said so far in this thread, but just wanted to address this one statement from maybe a different perspective.


You shouldn't expect any dog to just tolerate other impolite dogs, especially if they are complete strangers. And there is a big difference between attacking and correcting, but to an untrained eye they can look similar. I have a dog selective dog, who is very good with other dogs as long as they mind their manners. If the new company acts impolitely, she will correct them appropriately. However, new dogs can take this correction differently and the situation can escalate quickly if not monitored (which you can't do from a distance). The dog doing the correcting can be seen as problematic, but as long as they aren't overcorrecting then really its the rude dog that's the issue.

Think of it this way - if someone you didn't know approached you and offered to shake your hand, you'd likely accept it and return the gesture. However, if someone ran up to you and tried to crash tackle hug you, then it would be socially acceptable for you to shove them away and not act as enthusiastic. Just some food for thought

To be honest, her dog was angelic (while Nina wasn’t) and I’m certainly not criticising him. I would also understand correction of Nina’s behaviour, if she didn’t get hurt.

I’m not a person who thinks small dogs should get away with murder because they’re small and unthreatening - Nina will (if I can possibly manage it!) be trained to the same standard a big dog would need to be. But, if you see what I mean, while it doesn’t excuse it, she’s so, so tiny and so, so, obviously a puppy, that no one could expect it to escalate. What I mean is, she was far out of her weight class - so if she got swiped at or nipped (is that what you mean?) she would definitely have immediately cowered. Though, obviously she didn’t get close enough.

In any case, I understand the fear - I was pretty scared too! Remember for her dog to be at risk of getting hurt, mine would have to have been hurt already! I just wish she’d had the resources to try to give me some grace anyway, when it was so clearly a mistake. But, clearly, she didn’t, and it’s all over now.

 

Can I just add a note too on long lines - I personally prefer a proper long line, I don't like flexi leads. I find the handles cumbersome and in a panic, the fingers and buttons might not connect. The retracting and braking mechanics can fail - and importantly, they work by the dog actually pulling out the lead. If we are also trying to teach loose lead walking, we probably don't want to teach the dog to put pressure on the lead.

 

I don't like flexi leads

I strongly dislike flexi leads, for all the reasons given, most especially the fact that you cannot hold onto them as easily as you can a regular leash which has a loop you can put around your wrist. Additionally, if you have a dog any larger than 10 pounds or so, and the lead gets wrapped around any part of your body, and the dog takes off suddenly, it can cut into flesh very deeply. People have actually lost a finger or been cut deeply in their legs or wrists by a flexi-lead. They can be equally as dangerous for the dog, if they get wrapped around the dog's legs.

 

I'm partial to simple biothane long lines. Easy to clean, wet-resistant, a nice grip, you can have a loop at the end or not, unlikely to tangle. I got used to them through mantrailing and pretty much never used anything else since.

 

I used a flex lead for our former dog, who virtually never was out of control. In almost fifteen years it was never once an issue or problem. For our current dog, I use only a standard five or six foot non-flex lead, as she needs frequent reminders of where its OK to walk and where it isn't. I would not even dream of using a flex lead for this dog, ever. My point being, flex leads do have their uses and are OK to use, but it depends on the dog and his or her behavior characteristics.