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Discussion Starter #1
We have had Kimber for two weeks and Kelsey still seems to be irritable with her. She doesn't like play with Kimber and is still territorial. I don't usually mind but a few minutes ago Kimber was playing with a ball the rolled over to where Kelsey was sleeping and when Kimber went to get it Kelsey gave her Kujo growl. Kelsey mostly ignores Kimber but Kimber wants to play and she won't which I understand but I don't want her being so territorial and grouchy. What if anything should I do?
 

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My memory is good, but it's short :p

How old is Kelsey? I'm thinking with an older dog, a puppy is really irritating.

That being said, Mikey is only two, and seriously feels it's his responsibility to beat up every pup at the dog park and show 'em manners. If he's growling 10 times out of 10 it's at a pup, and he's snarking at them.

So I guess what I'm asking:

Is Kelsey old enough that puppy antics are just plain tiring her out, and she's growling to tell puppy to find something else to do and leave grandma alone?

Is she growling to teach pup manners (ie. she's telling pup that is not appropriate behavior-even mom's growl at pups ;) )

Is she growling because she seems to want nothing to do with the pup?

And is it posssible she's jealous at all?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Kelsey is 8 YEARS old and Kimber is 8 MONTHS old LOL so yes it is possible she just doesn't want to play. I understand that she is probably trying to teach Kimber some manners (he certainly needs it LoL) He jumps around and has a lot of energy and she mostly sleeps. It just gets tiring on me LoL to have Kelsey growling at Kimber all the time. Plus she is so irritable sometimes I think she wants to play but I can never tell if she is playing or fighting.

But this morning Kimber was just trying to get his ball that rolled near her and she growled...
 

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AHHHH I thought my 'leaky seive memory' was tingling about age there :p

Ok-it's VERY possible the pup is way too high energy for her and annoying the crud out of her :) Even cute pups annoy us sometimes right? And we can shut a door to get away from them :)

I'd GUESS it's a combo-

she may be annoyed and tired of pup (so in this case, try to give her some down time, like put her to bed where the pup can't bother her) due to her age.

She is likely bossing pup around, playing mom :) This is fine, and actually good for pup. But watch for signs she's really FED UP with pup so you don't have an incident. For instance, low growling at a pup to warn -fine. That crazy eyed ongoing growling-that basically says "I have no choice but to rip you apart if you don't stop that right now" that's the end of her rope, and watch for it.

Also she could be a little jealous ;) Hard not to pour over a cute pup :) Try to give her individual attention like you used to. Have visitors ignore the pup and greet her first-make a big fuss, give a cookie; then play with the pup :)
 

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mikey's advice is good, make sure that you are still giving kelsey attention, and she is most likely just annoyed and telling him that she doesn't want to play...

you really want kimber to learn patience...try this
http://www.youtube.com/user/RallyJud...30/WrRrp1QYYqA

hopefully this is a link of how to train "leave it" or "it's your choice" (can't double check right now cuz i'm at work, but let me know if it's wrong and i'll find it for you)

once he is good at it, you can try doing treat sessions with he and kelsey, i do this with my dog and my cats. i ask all 4 of them to line up and sit patiently while if give a treat to each in turn...it helps them all to associate good things with each other and being patient for food and treats....

otherwise, i would try to tire excited little kimber out just a bit whenever he is pestering kelsey...maybe give him an extra play session during her nap time...maybe some high speed fetch or a game of tug...

during training sessions with kimber, you can "include" kelsey by asking her to sit/lay patiently and tossing her a treat or two...

try not to correct her for telling kimber off as she will only associate being corrected with kimber...just distract kimber from bugging her, after all, she has earned some peace and quiet, and doesn't need this little upstart disrupting that...but it is good for her to learn that kimber isn't so bad, and that kimber= some yummy treats from time to time...



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

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hahha....Tippy HATED Chili...so I sat them down and started hand feeding them together over a weeks time ....then having them eat closer and closer together....then they had to be touching to get the click/treat...did that for a while.

I built this up SLOWLY to me rubbing them together like scrubby sponges...click.treat.

after the rubbin'....They were best friends from that day on.

basically I taught Tippy that having the puppy in her space meant good things...so I counter conditioned her to his touch/presence...once that was done the ice was broken. ;)


I think you dogs are too big to rub together well lol



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I think you dogs are too big to rub together well lol
lol

Crio you totally made me think of stress bonding. We do it with rabbits, because initially, many rabbits hate the other rabbit; but with time can become good buddies.
For stress bonding you put them together on a drier that's turned on (loud and movey) or in a bathtub, run the vaccum or take them for car rides.

At any rate-what do you think of stress bonding dogs? The principle is they get stressed out and worried, and cling to each for comfort/support -and don't fight because they are already worreid about something else...and they realize while cuddling-'hey he's not such a bad guy' It really works...but with dogs? I dunno?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Could it be me?

I yi yi...I just don't know about these dogs LoL...Maybe I am just too nervous. We are at the office now and they were playing you know nipping growling all that stuff but Kelsey makes me so nervous because she looks like Kujo when they are playing...atleast I hope they are playing...The only time she will engage with Kimber is when we are at the office I'm not sure what thats about. So anyway I let them play for a few minutes but then I think maybe they aren't playing so I make them stop. I don't know maybe it is all me and Kelsey and Kimber are fine. What scares me is if they aren't playing and I let it escalate I wouldn't be able to break them up. Also, I am just not sure if Kimber understands that Kelsey doesn't want to play. Or again, maybe it is me and Kimber and Kelsey are fine and I am the one with communication problems LoL.
 

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Crio had a great suggestion in a thread-seperate the dogs, and the let the one who was 'getting beat up on' go-if he goes back, they are playing :)

Wonder if they get on fine at the office because of the time of day, or because your distracted, or? That's probably key-figuring out why they get on so well in that environment. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Crio had a great suggestion in a thread-seperate the dogs, and the let the one who was 'getting beat up on' go-if he goes back, they are playing :)

Wonder if they get on fine at the office because of the time of day, or because your distracted, or? That's probably key-figuring out why they get on so well in that environment. :)
Neither of them are "losing" they are both just nipping and jumping but Kelsey just sounds REALLY mad....

I am thinking they get along better at the office (well they get along at home too Kelsey just ignores Kimber though) because we recently moved offices so Kelsey was only here for 2 weeks before we got Kimber so maybe this is considered nuetral?? But I am not sure. And its not that get along better its just that Kelsey doesn't ignore Kimber.
 

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Brittany...like I said before if they were fighting you would know it.;) There would be blood by now...sounds like loud play. Kiwi sounds like a hell hound when playing...Chili too...can you take a video for us to see?


lol

Crio you totally made me think of stress bonding. We do it with rabbits, because initially, many rabbits hate the other rabbit; but with time can become good buddies.
For stress bonding you put them together on a drier that's turned on (loud and movey) or in a bathtub, run the vaccum or take them for car rides.

At any rate-what do you think of stress bonding dogs? The principle is they get stressed out and worried, and cling to each for comfort/support -and don't fight because they are already worreid about something else...and they realize while cuddling-'hey he's not such a bad guy' It really works...but with dogs? I dunno?
interesting concept never heard of that. Sorta Sounds like flooding to me. Or perhaps being together is less aversive so its a form of negative reinforcement. Once again interesting.

I'd be more concerned about the dog associating the scary thing with the presence of the other dog tho. I think the distinction lies in the prey animal/predator distinction. Prey animals default setting is likely different. Two dogs in an inexcapable situation would probably turn on each other or shut down.


think ceasars pack...they are two crowded to fight...same goes for aggressive fish...over threshold so behavior is suppressed.



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Discussion Starter #12
Brittany...like I said before if they were fighting you would know it.;) There would be blood by now...sounds like loud play. Kiwi sounds like a hell hound when playing...Chili too...can you take a video for us to see?
Yes I will take and post a video. I just have never had two dogs so I don't know. Sometimes I think they are playing...I know Kimber is....but sometimes I wonder if Kelsey is trying get him away from her and he just won't listen. I can't read her.
 

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that description definately sounds like playing to me...probably they are playing most of the time and then when at home kelsey wants to chill out and kimber just wants to play so she may be telling him to cool it...almost every dog i know will growl when playing...i know it sounds scary...
a video would be great...



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Neither of them are "losing" they are both just nipping and jumping but Kelsey just sounds REALLY mad....
Hard to tell not seeing it. Like Mikey was playing with this dog this evening at the park-and it was dog (the owner told me) who's unsafe with other dogs due to an attack she suffered earlier in life (DUH don't take her to the dog park) and that was the FIRST time in two years she's seen her play...Mikey did awesome and nothing went wrong but you should have heard this dog.
And Mikey with a lot of dogs that he gets on really well with-the snarl, the teeth the growl-it sounds like they are going to kill each other and they are just playing...but you know, without being there..hard to tell..


Sorta Sounds like flooding to me
Nope not flooding, but I am unsure how you'd work it into learning theory (Eww dog fart-sorry had to share!!) ?? Umn..Basically, rabbits are prey animals and stress easy right? Soo it's almost like a distraction for them-focusing on the noisy drier or the new place or whatever-and they are not going to bite because this scary thing is much more important...and then if it's high stress enought they'll just huddle up with anybunny (even one they HATE!!) and eventually (A few sessions) they are just like-oh this dude won't hurt me.

I dunno-prey animal vs. predator right? It's a concept for bunnies (That really works) that may totally not work for predators-like dogs... *confused*

I'd be more concerned about the dog associating the scary thing with the presence of the other dog tho.
Good point!! That's why I asked you!! ;)

Actually really good point. Often 'bonded' animals can never be seperated, because putting them back together after results in fighting (Bunnies, cats, horses...) and so vets are quite comfy with taking a pair in for the day when only one needs something done...but the RISK is that if it's a spay/neuter...sometimes they may associate the pain with the friend, and it breaks the bond. It's tricky!


think ceasars pack...
I've been meaning to start a ceasar thread...I need to discuss him!!!

Sometimes I think they are playing...
It's hard to tell but honestly-I generally let them work it out. I think in a real dog fight I'd know -I'm over protective though so I just can't even think 'what does he mean by that' 'why is she doing this'

I'd say-if no ones bleeding and they are cohabitating-they are likely having fun.

I have to get a camera, and video Mikey with his two good buddies-from the noise and the faces they make-you'd think one of them was going to get killed!
 

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Soo it's almost like a distraction for them-focusing on the noisy drier or the new place or whatever-and they are not going to bite because this scary thing is much more important.
thats what flooding is ;)

biting is suppressed because the animal is overwhelmed.



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I did this same thing when Pandora, my shih-tzu passed away. I thought I would get another shih-tzu girl,(Payslee) for my 10 year old Lhasa (Rally) to play with. I brought her home at 8 weeks and he just DESPISED her..She was wild, and running everywhere trying to play with him and he wanted NOTHING to do with her. Everyone kept telling me, "Oh just give it time, and he'll grow to love her".. Well its a year later, and Nope, he still doesn't.

Now, he's not MEAN to her all the time..he will still snap at her, or growl at her if she gets close to him, but he never took to her like I had hoped..So what did I do? Well I got another boy tzu, Sawyer, for her to play with, and guess who loves him too? Yup, my 11 year old. I think its because Sawyer is very laid back and sweet. Now he and Rally will run and play, and chase each other, all the while Payslee is chasing after Sawyer, and they are playing..but Rally will never chase after Pays, or let her chase him. He has NO tolerance for her..So while I do think sometimes they grow to 'tolerate' each other..I don't think they always grow to love each other. Its like with some people..there are just some I can't stand to be around! lol..

Now because of that I always try to tell people when getting a new pack memeber to bring on in that is less than, or equal to the same temprement of your dog. Payslee was too high energy, and bossy for Rally, and as a result he doesn't really like her..but Sawyer who was low energy, and sweet, made for a perfect balanced family! Now Pays & Saw are Best friends, and Rally & Saw are best friends..
 
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