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Why do shock collars have such a bad rap?

18K views 98 replies 24 participants last post by  kmes 
#1 ·
Hi all!

This is my first post on the forums. I'm Philip, proud dad to Simba (pic) , a 7 month old lab. Simba joined our family when he was just 5 weeks after my girlfriend's friend had to give him up. Since we weren't planing on adopting a dog so we didn't have much time to research training techniques and we've been winging it. So far so good it seems, Simba is very well behaved and there's not basic training that we need to do and we're moving on to cool tricks like fetching Dad a beer. One of the basics that is still pending is having him not eat the neighbors trash.

We live in an urban area and people take their trash out to the curb every night for pick up. I'm pretty sure that Simba will eat absolutely anything but the putrid garbage seems to be some sort of doggy ice-cream. Simba knows that he's not supposed to eat the garbage and if he's close to me he usually won't even try and if I tell him no he'll stop and drop what ever he's managed to stuff in his mouth, but if he thinks I'm not looking or if he's far enough away he'll try and gulp it down before I can catch him. I figured that I could get a remote electroshock collar in order to try and work on this issue and I joined the forum in order to get recommendations on the different models (there is a huge range of prices between different ones). After doing some searching I was shocked (pardon my pun) by the negative opinions about these training collars and indeed some of the techniques I've used (which were just common sense applications of basic pavlovian conditioning). I even saw someone mention that people who use training collars are actually closet sadists! :eek:

Why is carrot and stick conditioning not recommended? Like I mentioned, having not studied anything about dog training specifically I just relied on my vague recall of freshman psych, I mean Pavlov was famous for his dogs after all. In our case it's certainly worked well. What's the reason not to use remote collars and the like? If not a remote collar, what would be another good technique to change this behavior?
 
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#2 ·
Firstly, welcome!

Basically, using a shock collar runs the risk of the dog developing aggressive/reactive behaviors since he is unlikely to associate the shock with the behavior and more likely to associate it with something in the environment, like a dog across the street or a jogger passing by.

"Stick and carrot" is really dangerous. Punishment is inevitably clumsy and messy and inaccurate. Reward is much more precise and effective. Your dog likely simply wants to avoid punishment from you and that's why he sneaks trash. It'd be more effective to build up good associations with not taking things from the trash. Same principle as this video:



Is simple management an option? Like just keeping him on a leash? No access to the trash, no issue. It's also pretty dangerous to have your dog off leash in your neighborhood.

Check out these stickies, hopefully they'll clear a few things up:

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/suppression-modification-shutdown-fallout-4776/

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/4-quadrants-operant-conditioning-23702/
 
#3 · (Edited)
Thanks for the reply.

First of all this is not a major issue so I'd rather not do something drastic like putting him on a leash just for the occasional nose in the trash. While I certainly own a leash and recognize that sometimes they're a necessary evil, they've always seemed like putting shackles on a dog (treating your dog as a prisoner) and I prefer to avoid it whenever I can.

Secondly I don't really understand how this could possibly be true
... he is unlikely to associate the shock with the behavior and more likely to associate it with something in the environment...
I think if the collar is used on occasions when he's got his nose in a trash bag it seems really unlikely that he won't be able to make the association.

I'll take a look at the threads you linked.

Edit: I'm not sure what you mean by "build up good associations with not taking things from the trash"? Does that mean give him a prize for not eating trash, something he only does for a brief second on every other day? It seems like it would be a lot harder for him to make the association between the reward and the trash than a jolt and eating the trash.
 
#4 ·
It is proven that shock collars cause undo stress and do not improve the effectiveness of training. I would directly you to the "cases" towards the bottom of this article in support of my earlier claim that you found fault with:

The Unintended Consequences of Shock Collars - Dog Behavior and Training - Green Acres Kennel Shop

and this one:

Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

and this one:

https://positively.com/articles/every-dog-owner-should-know-about-this-new-shock-collar-study/

Also, leashes are a safety tool. If trained properly, they cause no psychological damage and can save a dog's life. Please re-consider your stance on leashes. It will make your life and your dog's MUCH easier. I like what Victorian Stillwell (not perfect, but excellent in her way) said about leashes in one of her videos they are indeed a "canine life preserver".

A good leash and a great "leave it" cue are a much safer, less traumatic, and ultimately more effective solution for this problem.

Best of luck.
 
#7 ·
Also, leashes are a safety tool. If trained properly, they cause no psychological damage and can save a dog's life. Please re-consider your stance on leashes. It will make your life and your dog's MUCH easier. I like what Victorian Stillwell (not perfect, but excellent in her way) said about leashes in one of her videos they are indeed a "canine life preserver".
I don't doubt that a leash would be the easy way out for me here but I'd rather put in the work to do it right.

For me using a leash is like fencing a pool to keep a kid from drowning. Sure you could keep it fenced forever to prevent that but wouldn't it be better to teach the kid how to swim? That way you don't have to one day worry about leaving the gate open and having him drown?

Walking the dog without a leash allows him to get at least twice the amount of exercise as he would otherwise and allows him to explore all the different sights and smells we encounter which he greatly enjoys. Also being a retriever, he loves to fetch a stick or a ball which is thrown while on the walk.
 
#5 · (Edited)
In a nutshell... they work TOO well-- For what, we cannot control! The effects of a shock collar can be quite traumatic on a dog, since they don't understand as we do that the object causes no physical damage (most of the time-- If you ask your vet tech I'm sure they'll have some gory stories). The impact is such that the effects can stick with a dog for a long time, but, like I said, the effects are up to the dog: they could assign the blame for the shock to any environmental factor (usually not the actual behaviour you are trying to eradicate), and this often backfires.

For instance... If you were using a shock collar to correct your dog's behaviour around children, the dog might associate the punishment with the presence of the children. I mean really, how keen would you be on kids if they were constantly getting you zapped? The huge danger to this is that when dogs want something gone, they only ask nicely for so long. This can lead to grievous, even fatal injuries to dogs, children, people, other pets, etc.

If you can remember a bit of your psych, the method often preferred to positive punishment (adding a bad stimulus) is negative punishment (removing a good stimulus). Or, as I like to say, the hand that giveth can darn well taketh away!!!

This doesn't give you license to snatch physical things away from your dog (which can cause resource guarding problems) but it does streamline the learning process beautifully. Instead of asking your dog to seek this reward while simultaneously avoiding that punishment, you are cutting the fat down to this: either you get it, or you don't!

Let's take the example of walking on a loose leash. I'm always choked by the number of people who think that it's productive to stumble along behind their dog, yanking on his prong collar as he soldiers forward. They can punish all they want but they are still giving the dog the reward he is going for: to get ahead! I have seen dogs literally throw themselves onto their prongs time and time again in order to run up to my dogs and myself and give us a greeting. They are not stupid dogs, they are just getting what they want. For them, the benefit outweighs the cost and their owners just keep caving.

If I decide instead when that dog pulls on the lead that I will simply not give him what he wants and jam on the brakes, I'm denying him of the only thing that matters to him in that moment. If I am really playing hardball I might even start to walk backward. Well, jeez! Now his behaviour that used to get him (albeit painfully) toward his goal is getting him further away! I take you on a walk, I can just stop walking if you're making a nuisance of yourself! You get it, or you don't. No need for punishment.


Now my suggestion to your particular problem is to tell your dog what to do instead of what not to do. Dogs can find loopholes all day long. Yours already has: clearly, your no-trash rule only applies if you're looking!!! Teach him leave it. Use a high-value treat. If he really likes trash that much... use that! Carrot tops, pineapple cores, apple peels-- The lab I walk is crazy about these. I think it is the novelty that draws them so much to trash, so whenever I am cutting veggies I save a few in a bag for her. So her special training treat is the veggie of the day. It may sound like I'm bending over backwards for her but really, it's no skin off my nose. And instead of having a dog that tries to sneak down trash when I'm not looking, I have a dog that sees trash (or another dog, or a person, or a cat), and looks to me for direction. How great is that? All for some food scraps that I would have chucked anyways.


ETA: And you do NOT want a dog that is afraid of trash cans / bags. Been there. Do you how many of those go OUT on garbage day? Walking down the sidewalk will still be like running a gauntlet, only in a different way. :eek:
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the thought out response.

The example you used about a shock collar and causing aversion to children seems similar to things mentioned in cbarkerb724's links which seem to concentrate on people who use the collars for more complex problems like barking, aggression etc. This seems like a much more specific issue which would be very difficult for the dog to confuse with other stimuli.

As far as a "leave it" command, that works great 90% of the time and 100% of the time when Simba is within 30ft of me. The main problem though is that it doesn't take him long to grab something out of the garbage, so even though he'll get away from the bag, he'll have gotten something out of it and will try to chew on it a few times before dropping it. He'll always drop it by the 2nd or 3rd time I tell him to drop it, even if I'm further away, but he'll try his damnedest to use those 20 odd seconds to swallow before giving in and 'dropping it'. If I were next to him I'd give him a little slap for making me say it more than once. If I'm not next to him I can't and whether we're talking about positive punishment or the recommended negative punishment, I can't really delay a punishment (or a reward) if I want it to be effective, hence my original thought towards a remote collar which would allow me to add a punishment at the same time as the action.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The shock collars-- believe me, dogs are not stupid. They can pretty easily put the source of the shock back to yourself (I mean think of it, if you got hurt all of a sudden wouldn't you look to the person closest to you, rather than at the inanimate object that has never hurt you before?). That, OR they begin to realize that your 'leave it' only applies when the shock collar is on them. The prongs have a distinctive feel and dogs can very easily differentiate.

I would not slap a dog around food as this can cause resource guarding issues, i.e., they can think of something better to do than flinch when you stick your hand near their teeth. Just a bad road to go down with a dog that has no aggression problems currently.

Now what you are saying is that your leave it works 90-100% of the time... when you ask him three times. Now, I know that dogs can count to some extent but that probably deteriorates a little bit when there's OMG GARBAGE right over there. How many times does he think he has to hear it before he follows through? Needs to be happening on the first and only time you ask.

So what is the hangup? To some extent it is probably the fact that he gets to ignore 2/3 leave its. Another factor is probably that he has insufficient motivation for the task. If someone told you to leave a hundred dollar bill on the ground for a nickel... would you? Now, I know that you are probably not wanting to give your dog an equal or greater reward for a can of garbage each time-- I'm getting to that.

The third factor is impulse control, which is rather like a muscle. You don't strengthen it by going to the gym with your noodle arms and trying to bench 200 lbs. You just can't. You start small, increase the reps, increase the weights, have a rest, then get back at it. If the weight is so great that you can't lift it... no cigar. Nobody ever worked out by lying on a bench straining to do one rep all day! Same goes for dog training-- your dog can't just wake up and leave a piece of delicious garbage alone, or break away from a squirrel chase to come running towards you. Those things take practice; you need to push the limits, but not exceed them.

I think this game would be an awesome exercise for your dog:



Notice that they start out small, but they never stop challenging the dog. That is what beefs up the dog's impulse control muscle, and believe me, they can get very good at this game-- think of guide dogs and assistance dogs, who often have to walk through grocery stores, by trash cans, into food courts, without caving to the urge to snarf everything in sight down. Look up "impulse control exercises / games" on youtube, you will find many.

Now your dog is the master of impulse control and can bench 200 lb weights, so to speak. They can leave a roast you dropped while you go and get some paper towels. People can wave sausage in front of their face and they will leave them be. How tempting is that trash for them now? Not very, because they are good at restraining themselves. They can leave the $100 bill on the floor be, just as though it were a nickel.

All of this comes with no shortage of hard work from dog and owner, believe me. It does not come at the press of a button, like e-collar training does. But you will have a better dog for it, and be a better dog trainer for it.

ETA: A note on the leash, yes, it will be necessary at first. You can't just let him get what he wants; that will get you nowhere with him, e-collar or not. You don't want the kiddie pool? Your dog needs the kiddie pool. With water-wings, by the looks of it. He's a puppy, a baby with no impulse control. You can't just expect him to up and bench 200 lbs, at this point in his training.
 
#9 ·
You live in an urban area and there's no leash law?

How about keeping him on leash until you get him past your neighbors trash, at least until you can train him a proper leave it and have him be reliable.

He does not know that he shouldn't get into your neighbors trash. What he knows is that he shouldn't get in your neighbors trash when you are near, because doing so then is not safe.

Shock collars carry a huge risk of fall out. First you have to be 100% certain that the dog knows that the thing, and only the thing, you don't want it to do is what it's being shocked for. So are you certain that your dog is going to associate eating the trash and not the trash itself, the trash can, the location, the person, vehicle, or animal, passing by with the shock? Are you certain that you won't have to keep on shocking your poor dog because he decided that the tasty rice he was eating got him the shock and not the nice, fragrant, chicken leg?

Are you prepared for fallout, he may decide that it was the location that got him shocked and refuse to walk past, he may decide that garbage cans are evil causes of pain and start wanting to make wide detours around them, or maybe it's a certain smell that was in the can that he associates with the shock and whenever he smells that scent he refuses to budge or wants to hide.

If your dog was mine, and I'd simply leash my dog and walk past the object then to set him up to fail and shock him when he does so. It's the equivalent of leaving tasty food on the table, waiting for the dog to try and take it, then shocking him when he does so when it'd be easier, safer, and kinder to simply put up the food when I'm not at the table.
 
#10 ·
you live in an urban area and there's no leash law?

How about keeping him on leash until you get him past your neighbors trash, at least until you can train him a proper leave it and have him be reliable.

He does not know that he shouldn't get into your neighbors trash. What he knows is that he shouldn't get in your neighbors trash when you are near, because doing so then is not safe.

Shock collars carry a huge risk of fall out. First you have to be 100% certain that the dog knows that the thing, and only the thing, you don't want it to do is what it's being shocked for. So are you certain that your dog is going to associate eating the trash and not the trash itself, the trash can, the location, the person, vehicle, or animal, passing by with the shock? Are you certain that you won't have to keep on shocking your poor dog because he decided that the tasty rice he was eating got him the shock and not the nice, fragrant, chicken leg?

Are you prepared for fallout, he may decide that it was the location that got him shocked and refuse to walk past, he may decide that garbage cans are evil causes of pain and start wanting to make wide detours around them, or maybe it's a certain smell that was in the can that he associates with the shock and whenever he smells that scent he refuses to budge or wants to hide.

If your dog was mine, and i'd simply leash my dog and walk past the object then to set him up to fail and shock him when he does so. It's the equivalent of leaving tasty food on the table, waiting for the dog to try and take it, then shocking him when he does so when it'd be easier, safer, and kinder to simply put up the food when i'm not at the table.
this ^
 
#12 ·
Pavlov was doing his studies in 1890s behavioural science has moved on. Even with controlling prey drive positive reinforcement came out better than aversive techniques such as shock collars.

Shock collars are illegal in many places such, even when people prescribe to 100% positive techniques shock collars are considered to be too extreme.

We used to have medicines that healed us back in the day but we continued research and eventually discovered new medications with fewer side effects.

thats what positive reinforcement is, same result fewer side effects.

Positive punishment is not really used among scientists and behaviourists any more. It continues among amateurs and people set in their ways in the pet training circles.

I have never seen a really well behaved dog trained with aversive techniques unless they have lost their will to think for themselves. They would all run toward their masters with their head bowed and tail between their legs shouting calming signals. These dogs lived in fear of a punishment.

Or like my old dog would just outsmart us and wait until we left to steal :D

Both psychology and animal behavioural science has really moved on since pavlov and we have seen an increase in studies aimed specifically at dogs, they werent really considered worthy of such scientific intrigue before. So far science points to positive reinforcement.

If you use positive reinforcement wrong, maybe dont reward quick enough or for the wrong thing, nothing bad happens except the dog doesnt learn the right behaviour. When using punishment you are gambling on the dog realising that the trash means punishment. He could associate it with the dog that happens to walk by, you, the yard anything.
 
#13 ·
Excellent advice so far.

As Spotsonofbun mentioned, science has moved on since Pavlov. In addition to having more knowledge and better understanding of behavioral science and animal learning, we have made great strides in improving the ethics associated with both research studies and training.

Studies that were pivotal in understanding learning and behavior would now be considered grossly irresponsible (e.g., Little Albert, Stanford prison experiment, Milgram experiment). Similarly, training methods that were once seen as standard (e.g., ear pinch retrieving, negative reinforcement recall, alpha rolls) are now understood to be potentially damaging and unethical. Many modern, educated trainers now use something called the Humane Hierarchy to establish ethical boundaries in their work. This blog post offers a nice overview: The Humane Hierarchy, Part 1 of 2: Overview (check out the link to Susan Friedman's piece included in the post).
 
#20 ·
There has been a lot of interesting information put forward and it's made for some fascinating reading. Especially the behavioral psych stuff.

I guess I'm having some trouble reconciling the scholarly opinions with my real life experience. Habanero paste and wasabi ended chewing on furniture and shoes in a week and the chewing hasn't made a reoccurrence even though the spices haven't come out in 5 months. Slightly over the top reactions to him coming inside by himself means that he won't cross thresholds unaccompanied, even if I leave the door open all day and leave the house, he'll sit outside and won't come in but if we call him in he'll happily walk through.

Maybe if I'd read all of this beforehand I'd have tried things a bit differently but the "carrot and stick" approach just felt logical and I guess still does. Desired action = Reward. Undesired action = punishment. When we were train him to come when called I went to the park with my girlfriend and we'd sit in benches about 100ft apart, the one not sitting with him would call him and give a treat for coming. If on the second call he still hadn't come the one with him would give him a slap across the face and say "go to [mommy/daddy]" which would invariably send him moving towards the other who would give the reward. If that's not classic carrot and stick, I don't know what is. After three half-hour sessions, 1/4 bag of treats and a maximum of 4 total application of the "stick", he had it down pat.

When at 3 months I was teaching him to go for walks, I made him stop at every intersection and only cross when I said lets go. When he waited by himself he got praise, or occasionally a treat, when he stepped off the curb by himself I yanked on the leash hard enough to pull him flying backwards through the air and then sternly yelled NO. Although this needed some reinforcement later on when other dogs or playful children in crosswalks came in to the mix, he's managed to integrated it amazingly well and for at least a month or two he hasn't once gone into the street with out permission. Even if we're playing fetch and the ball rolls into the street he'll stop and watch it roll until I can come pick it up.

I guess I don't see how to effectively use negative punishment to modify the particular behavior that I'm trying to address.



Also I'm honestly surprised by the attitudes towards leashing. I'm not sure about other dogs but mine greatly prefers being off leash to on. He loves being able to smell and inspect all the different things, and run forward or hang back etc.

Maybe the pool analogy wasn't the best. The more I think of it I actually like the life preserver one better. I love going out on the water yet I don't always wear a life preserver. The benefits of it being able to float me are weighed against the restriction of movement and uncomfortable nature of wearing one. White water kyaking when I lived in seattle = YES; hanging out on my cousins pontoon boat = NO; Jet skiing = yes; stand up paddle boarding = NO, kite boarding = YES, rowing = NO. Just like a leash, in pretty much all situations a life preserver would increase my safety but you have to weigh the risk. If we follow the life preserver analogy I see actual training of the dog to be comparable to learning how to swim.
 
#16 ·
You've got a lot of great advice so far on training and the use of shock collars.

I just want to correct the use of pavlovian conditioning.

Pavlovian conditioning, also known as classical conditioning is the association between two stimuli.

What you were describing is operant, also known as instrumental conditioning. That is the association between a behavior (known as response in learning theory) and the proceeding stimulus. So if a dog barks and you shock it, that's operant conditioning, more specifically positive punishment. Punishment decreases a behavior, reinforcement increases a behavior. Even scolding a dog is positive punishment.
Positive reinforcement is what many people on this forum focus on and could include giving a dog a treat or praise to increase a behavior.

Pavlovian conditioning, on the other hand, is the association between stimuli rather than behavior. So if you shock a dog for barking at another dog, it might associate the shock with the other dog rather than its behavior. THAT'S pavlovian conditioning and that's the problem with using positive punishment, because people always focus on operant conditioning and never consider what other associations the animal could be making.

We use pavlovian conditioning on this forum- counter conditioning is actually a form of pavlovian conditioning as it's making a positive association with stimuli that the dog might find threatening.

Both are legitimate forms of conditioning widely used and studied today by behaviorists and learning theorists. And yes, positive punishment is still studied by scientists.

The thing to keep in mind is that BOTH forms of conditioning are always occurring and interacting. Someone on this forum once said "Pavlov is always on your shoulder." I can't remember who said it or on which thread- it was a while ago. But it's something that I liked and that I try to keep in mind when I'm working with animals (and people!).
 
#17 ·
That was probably me with the "Pavlov is always on your shoulder comment". I can't claim it as my own. I read it many years ago and use it often. I'd attribute it to the right person if I could only remember who it was. :)

Operant conditioning=Antecedent, behavior, consequence.
Classical conditioning= This happens and then that happens.

Use OC to change a behavior. Use CC to change an emotion.

Both of these happen all the time without any human intervention. Both can be used to train dogs using a humane hierarchy. Both can be used with aversive methods. I know which way I prefer to train now.
 
#18 ·
Im learning a lot of new words today :D
 
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#24 ·
Yes that seems to be the overwhelming consensus but it's the reasoning behind that which is what has me wondering. I kind of expected it to focus around the collars being too painful but instead it seems like the discouragement has nothing to do with the effect of the collar rather than a rejection of negative reinforcement altogether. The pain issue is a big deal to me since obviously I don't want to be touring our baby but I don't really understand the idea that negative associations don't work since in my experience they clearly have.
 
#22 ·
Buddy, I've tried to be nice. You need to give your head a shake before someone sees you slapping your dog in the face or yanking him flying in public. Believe me, a lot of people would take huge issue with that and would be more than happy to show you some real positive punishment.

Roughly every other month we have someone who comes here with a dog that refuses to go outside since they have installed an electric fence. My own dog refuses to go into the backyard when he has an electric collar on (my family has used one to curb barking at the neighbours). Apparently for all of these dogs, freedom comes at too high a cost when there is a possibility of getting zapped.

In all honesty, even if you found a trainer who condones the use of an electric collar, I think you would be hard-pressed to find one that condones it for this purpose. Your intent with the device is to set the dog up for failure, and then punish them for that. That's not teaching your kid to swim: that's taking the kid that isn't paying attention in swimming class, throwing them in the deep end and just leaving them to panic because it serves them right.

I've given my thoughts; I've typed quite a bit but I suspect that your mind was made up going into this and you were merely looking for validation before you went ahead and bought one. But when you shock your dog, look into its eyes while you do it. It doesn't have to be high intensity, but something about it just strikes this look of panic into their eyes. Animals may be more sensitive to electricity than we think; it's not theorized that the static is half of what gets dogs so scared about thunderstorms.

I've said my piece, I'm out. This is just getting ridiculous.
 
#26 ·
We're not saying he has to be on a leash 24/7, of course dogs prefer to be off leash, but they can't always be.

Reading the part about you pulling your dog back until it flies through the air made me physically wince. A firm no should suffice.

I just really hope you decide to go the easy route and not chose to use the shock collar. Your dog is just a baby, why you would want to hurt him when there is other easier options is beyond me
 
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#28 ·
Your dog is seven months old. He is a baby, he is not trying to be a jerk, and you are being a jerk back to him.

90% of us here have been on the "carrot and stick" side. Would you like to know what yanking, a choke chain, slapping, hitting, and yanking my dog (flying, like yours) through the air got me? A neurotic, terrified animal who now associates people and loud noises with awful things and, rather than cowering, lunges the end of his leash barking because of that anxiety.

Two years solid of behavior modification has made a serious dent and he's happier, but he is by no means "fixed" and this is entirely my fault.

With this sort of method, you will have fallout. You will have bad repercussions, and you will end up with a dog whose behavior isn't perfect. Punishment, even in the most professional traditional trainer's hands, has to be precise, perfect, and accurate. And some dogs just don't care. Your dog wants to take trash. Manage the trash. Lock it away. Keep it somewhere where he can't get to it. It's not that hard to put a latch on a cupboard and latch the cupboard when you throw something away.

The only thing you'll get from punishment is what you have now: a dog who steals when you aren't looking, because the reward of the trash is more reinforcing, and the dog will not connect a delayed punishment with trash thieving.

We've given you as much advice, personal experience, and studies as we can. You, as an owner, need to sit back, read every single link, do some research, and open up a little to the possibility that your method may be wrong.

If you keep on this path, you're likely to end up with serious aggression and resource guarding once your dog hits adulthood. For the safety of yourself, the dog, and everyone the dog will come in contact with, listen to what we are saying.
 
#29 ·
I have a 7 month old dog too. The thought of sending my dog flying through the air by her neck or smacking her or yelling at her. She's so well behaved and responsive for her age and doesn't even know that positive punishment even exists.

I genuinely hope you learn about the issues with the methods you're using now. The negative consequences will surface eventually and when they do they will take a toll on your dog who doesn't deserve any of this pain and on you when you realize what could have been avoided and I think deep down your intensions are good and you do love your dog. That must make it very hard to hit him and cause him pain and now we've all told you you do not need to do that to have a well trained dog. I hope you keep an open mind :eek:
 
#30 ·
I was you and your methods for many years. Luckily I was able to take in some science based information that compelled me to change the way I train. I found it became hard to justify causing my dogs pain and to fear the consequences of their actions.

If you're at all open to one more suggestion, read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. She started out as a marine mammal trainer.

By the way, I said previously that my dogs much prefer to run free without constraints on their movements or behavior. Every single person here has a dog that feels the same way or most of them. Your comment that you're surprised that other dogs aren't the same way is incorrect. My dogs would happily run down the edge of the highway sniffing away if I let them. My dogs would like to eat any sort of garbage they could. They'd eat rat poison and drink anti freeze just because they can. My responsibility to them is to keep them safe and I choose to accomplish that without pain or fear.
 
#31 ·
When I used to go to dog parks, there was a lovely little dog who's owner decided that it was easier to 'zap' her than to train her. I watched the dog quickly become more timid and uncertain, and then one day she 'attacked' her playmate, a much smaller dog. "But I was zapping her, I don't know why she did that!" cried her owner. Now, I can't read a dog's mind, but my guess is that she got zapped and associated it with her playmate; in her pain/fear, she attacked the smaller dog and the more she was zapped, the more frantic she became. Fortunately, the smaller dog was not physically hurt, but I found it extremely sad what that guy was doing to his dog. Especially since he was so obviously proud of her, yet had no idea how to read her body language, and no idea how the shock collar was affecting her confidence and behavior.

Esand, your puppy is only a few months old, and yeah, all this "stick" stuff might seem to be effective, but he's going to become an adolescent. Adolescent dogs have a tendency to push boundaries, and all the training you thought you had done is likely to be forgotten. Now, an older dog has a better sense of self, and while the puppy you have now accepts your 'slaps', an older dog might decide he doesn't like that ... and growl at you. If you escalate the violence, so might your dog. Worst case scenario is that your dog decides that humans in general are dangerous, especially when they wave their hands around his face, and take to snapping/biting. If you add more aversives, all of them designed to control through pain/fear, and your dog becomes more aggressive - who's to blame? You. But who will pay the ultimate price? Your dog.

And, as Grabby says, leashes are important safety tools: dogs will gobble up anything, they'll suddenly dart to or away from things, and if very excited they literally will not hear their owner's recall. It can be a matter of life and death.
 
#32 ·
on the whole leash thing I do agree that some sort of off leash play and exercise is very beneficial for dogs but it has to be in a safe environment.

I have lost a family dog when the dog was simply off leash in front of our house which was on a very quiet street, he ran off to a larger busier street where someone was speeding and he got hit.

Using leashes is not a substitute for training recall, its for places where being off leash is either illegal and/or unsafe.

An on leash walk can also be an opportunity for brain exercises. Teaching the dog to focus on you when surronded by exciting stimuli (build this up slowely), its a chance to socialise and desensitise dogs to be in a crowd, particularly if you live in a city.

Dogs need to be trained to behave on leash and off leash.
 
#35 ·
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#36 ·
Like anything else in life people malign and fear something they do not understand.
When used by someone who know what they are doing it is a very motivational tool. My dogs tails wag a mile a minute when put on. Mild stimulant (vibrate) is paired with a positive reinforcer like play, a tug toy, even high value treat. It is used to fine tune specific behaviors. Kinda like marking moment of perfect performance without a clicker. Unlike a clicker you can mark behavior from any distance or location.

The dog world is full of ignorance and generalizing. Always amused when people see how positive it can be used then it blows all their closed minded paradigms out the water. Don't form opinions by what some idiots do with them. I would hope people here are better than that. Watch/speak to people who use it to bring out the best in their dogs in a positive motivational way.
 
#37 ·
Like anything else in life people malign and fear something they do not understand.
When used by someone who know what they are doing it is a very motivational tool. My dogs tails wag a mile a minute when put on. Mild stimulant (vibrate) is paired with a positive reinforcer like play, a tug toy, even high value treat. It is used to fine tune specific behaviors. Kinda like marking moment of perfect performance without a clicker. Unlike a clicker you can mark behavior from any distance or location.

The dog world is full of ignorance and generalizing. Always amused when people see how positive it can be used then it blows all their closed minded paradigms out the water. Don't form opinions by what some idiots do with them. I would hope people here are better than that. Watch/speak to people who use it to bring out the best in their dogs in a positive motivational way.
This isn't what the op is considering though...
 
#39 ·
Depending on what the behavior was you would use a appropriate level of stim to achieve the result you wanted. No digoing in trash, chasing cars, etc.

obviously vibrate has no negative association. Your command with stim them immediate positive such as praise, play, treat etc when dog makes that choice to ignore the trash. Depending on how intense the desire for the unwanted behavior is you have to make your authority that much more powerful. Unwanted behavior is unwanted behavior. Simply make it clear what it is you want from the dog.
No grey area.
 
#40 ·
I've seen and own dogs who were so determined to achieve the unwanted behaviour that anything that would counteract it would be abuse, seriously. They learned to wait until we were out of the room to steal and in case of a Beagle there is no amount of punishment and pain that can convince him to stop sniffing the ground on a walk, a smelly sausage however can...

Dogs also dont generalise, if you 'assert your power' by 'training' them to not sniff the trash they won't associate that to not pull on the lead.

Don't get me wrong I do believe in stopping unwanted behaviour just not by asserting power.
 
#41 ·
I wonder the same thing as Rain,
[W]hen the punishments stop working you need to find a different one to use, and it sounds like you are there since you are looking at shock collars. What are you going to go to if the shock collar doesn't work or stops working?
You're talking about using a shock collar on a young puppy. If you start there, how will you escalate when the shock stops working? You've done a good job of intimidating your puppy into behaving. As others have asked, what happens when he becomes a little older if he decides to fight back? Where will you go from there?

Something to think about from a well-known, widely-respected veterinarian and animal behaviorist:
To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:

  • A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
  • A thorough understanding of learning theory.
  • Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don’t need a shock collar.
— Dr. Ian Dunbar
 
#43 ·
I wonder the same thing as Rain,


You're talking about using a shock collar on a young puppy. If you start there, how will you escalate when the shock stops working? You've done a good job of intimidating your puppy into behaving. As others have asked, what happens when he becomes a little older if he decides to fight back? Where will you go from there?
Well, I'm no longer so certain about the collar after reading this thread but the idea would be not to escalate. There should be no reason to escalate.

I don't think it's so much about intimidation rather negative association. When I was pretty young my parents taught me not to stick my fingers in electrical sockets and to be careful around electricity. While I believed them, and never felt the need to test their advice by touching an outlet I was perhaps not as careful as I should have been. When I was in grade school I was unplugging one of the antique computers we had and my hand brushed the prongs of the plug before I had fully removed it. Decades later and I'm still one of the most discombobulated oafish people you'll meet but when I'm doing anything around electricity I become incredibly focused and carefu. Why? Because although most of the rest of that period of my life is just a blur of memories I can still remember with absolute clarity the sensation of that shock.

Pain, both physical and emotional, as well as feelings of joy and pride can mark us permanently. Why do people want to move after having suffered a tragedy in their house, why do we smile when we go to the restaurant where we had our first date as terrible as the food may be.

It seems fairly natural to me. After I saw the chewed up phone cord when our puppy was just 5 or 6 weeks I broke out the habenero paste and coated every available cord and then I left the room. When I went back the poor baby was crying and whining in the corner. I don't know if at that point he associated the pain with the action of biting the cord or the smell of habaneros or something else, I didn't see any reason to put him off hot peppers so the next day I coated the cables with wasabi paste, it took another day after that until he got curious again but sure enough he did and boy was he sorry. After that I switched to mustard but he never tried again and to this day he has never chewed another cable. And thank god, I'm terrified to imagine what would happen if he chewed through an electrical cord.
 
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