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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
Sorry for the late reply.
Clubs in my area generally don't allow to come just to watch and competitions/shows are generally ~300km or more away, but I'll try to organize something to participate. I'm currently waiting for replies
from the contacted breeders. Fostering is quite rare and unusual here, but I'll talk with the shelter and try to figure out something.

I definetly look for a dog with high trainability, not very vocal (I live in an apartment and am myself quite sensitive to noise), enough prey drive to be still manageable off leash but suited for protection sports. More one person oriented and, not a must, affectionate (possibly velcro) with it. It has to be able to adapt to new environments (i will move probably once or twice in the next few years). I noticed that I normally adjust to the needs of a dog. If it needs much exercise, I'll do my best to provide it. Still about 2, max. 3 hours is the time I can actively spend with my dog, so it will have to have an "off switch" to just chill on the couch or under the desk. I'm still trying to organise that if I'll be able to take it to work. This isn't really common here.

I 'll see how the club and trainer situation here is and how much I can afford. I started to explore the nearby hiking trails and setting my routes. I still continue to do my research about training and effective mental stimulation.

All kelpies I found were mixed, working and show line, and all breeding dogs have to work. Not all BCs here have to herd or work to be bred, but many breeders do something with them nonetheless.

I sadly don't have a herding club (or sheep) in my area, so sadly this won't really work. I do have poultry, but I don't know if I find someone experienced who can help me train my dogs to herd the birds.

I'll try to find a working link in english as fast as possible, I'll add it here later
 

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Discussion Starter #42

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Sorry for the late reply.
Clubs in my area generally don't allow to come just to watch and competitions/shows are generally ~300km or more away, but I'll try to organize something to participate. I'm currently waiting for replies
from the contacted breeders. Fostering is quite rare and unusual here, but I'll talk with the shelter and try to figure out something.

I definetly look for a dog with high trainability, not very vocal (I live in an apartment and am myself quite sensitive to noise), enough prey drive to be still manageable off leash but suited for protection sports. More one person oriented and, not a must, affectionate (not quite velcro) with it. It has to be able to adapt to new environments (i will move probably once or twice in the next few years). I noticed that I normally adjust to the needs of a dog. If it needs much exercise, I'll do my best to provide it. Still about 2, max. 3 hours is the time I can actively spend with my dog, so it will have to have an "off switch" to just chill on the couch .

I 'll see how the club and trainer situation here is and how much I can afford. I started to explore the nearby hiking trails and setting my routes. I still continue to do my research about training and effective mental stimulation.

All kelpies I found were mixed, working and show line, and all breeding dogs have to work. Not all BCs here have to herd or work to be bred, but many breeders do something with them nonetheless.

I sadly don't have a herding club (or sheep) in my area, so sadly this won't really work. I do have poultry, but I don't know if I find someone experienced who can help me train my dogs to herd the birds.

I'll try to find a working link in english as fast as possible, I'll add it here later
Shepherds are very vocal!
 

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Well I guess that also differ from country to country. Where I live all border collies needs to pass through a working test of herding if you want to breed them. In this way you’ll keep the initial working abilities that the border collie are so rare to posses. Therefore all border collies will be bred for herding and have the need to get an outlet for it. Whetter if it’s right or not to make these working dogs into pure show dogs or companion dogs is another discussion.


Protection sport is basically a sport where the dog is trained to defend itself and its handler. You could say that it’s a reconstruction of police work where the dog should deal with “criminals”, to find, follow, guard, attack etc. It’s a sport that demands a lot of discipline, obedience and a strong relationship between dog and handler. Not all breeds (or dogs) are fit for this or should be exposed to it.
Here’s a video that shows it quite well:

IPO (or IGP as it’s also called) is not solely protection work. It’s a sport that tests three specific areas and protection work is one of them. The other two are tracking and obedience trial.
Thankyou for explaining about protection sports. I didnt realise some countries have that rule about border collies. We had a huge yard with ducks and rabbits that my dog would look after gently. She had the classic eye and drop. So i guess thats herding in a sense. As for showing and i apologise in advance if i offend anyone but i am very against breeding for showing.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I know ;-;
Most of the people in my building have many yappy dogs, so some vocalization isn't a problem, but I don't know how much noise from big dogs is tolerated
 

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I know ;-;
Most of the people in my building have many yappy dogs, so some vocalization isn't a problem, but I don't know how much noise from big dogs is tolerated

Oh there are double standards and not just about noise...
A small dog yaps ..oh hes so cute thinks hes a lion dont you... big dog bark or yip.. OMG hes aggressive

Small dog nips... OMGosh hes so brave protecting mummy big dog nips...animal control called dog put down..

Small dog craps on the lawn ,,, oh hes only little you hardly notice ... big dog ... Thats just antisocial and against the law..
small dog humps a strangers leg.. Ooooh he thinks hes the big man now doesnt he??? (all smiles)
big dog humps someone.. Screams of horror and your dog is attacking me...


etc etc etc you get my drift...
 

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Oh there are double standards and not just about noise...
A small dog yaps ..oh hes so cute thinks hes a lion dont you... big dog bark or yip.. OMG hes aggressive

Small dog nips... OMGosh hes so brave protecting mummy big dog nips...animal control called dog put down..

Small dog craps on the lawn ,,, oh hes only little you hardly notice ... big dog ... Thats just antisocial and against the law..
small dog humps a strangers leg.. Ooooh he thinks hes the big man now doesnt he??? (all smiles)
big dog humps someone.. Screams of horror and your dog is attacking me...


etc etc etc you get my drift...
Not just dogs but cats too. Jesses first ligament ruptured from a cat attacking him on a walk. No i am not kidding!
Imagine if it was the other way rnd!
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
Going away from dubble standards, a question came to my mind and I can't find a clear answer. Are there any differences between groenendaelers and malinois except the coat? I noticed that in the US were some complaints that other belgian shepherd are much more mellow than the malinois, but as far as I know they are treated as completely different breeds and interbreeding isn't possible as it is in Europe... So, does someone from around here maybe know?

Edit: typo
 

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Going away from dubble standards, a question came to my mind and I can't find a clear answer. Are there any differences between groenendaelers and malinois except the coat? I noticed that in the US were some complaints that other belgian shepherd are much more mellow than the malinois, but as far as I know they are treated as completely different breeds and interbreeding isn't possible as it is in Europe... So, does someone from around here maybe know?

Edit: typo
Where I live they count as the same breed but there’s still some clear differences between the types. For instance you can see a couple of clear differences looking at their MH-test results (at least in my country). Like I said before the Malinois is generally the more intense and I guess you could describe the others as more mellow, or collected. I’m going to be honest and say that I don’t have much-to any experience from these breeds so the best is if you do your own research. But what I’ve heard people describe the different types as is that the Malinois tend to have a higher drive and willingness to play and a higher sharpness (traits that are evaluated in MH-tests). Meanwhile the Groenendael and tervueren might not be as intense and can have some more insecurities and fears. But again, some will claim the opposite and say that the two last mentioned types are generally more stable than the Malinois. Therefore you should read as much as you can that will apply to the lines you’re looking at.

The downside with all Belgium Shepherds is that they can be sensitive, mentally weak and have quite thin nerves. This can show by them getting spooked by noises or more challenging environments. They can have an issue with lacking resilience, which means they can get affected for a longer period of time by a negative event than what’s desirable. Due to the high drive and stress sensitivity they can have issues with settling down and to relax (bad off-switch). In general they can have issues with lack in stability and balance.

Of course all breeds have their cons and a lot depends on the breeding and also the handling. But these are some issues you need to be aware of and this can be very difficult for a beginner to deal with.

In comparison the GSD is typically more stable, emotionally balanced and more collected. If the only reason for you to eliminate the GSD because of their looks I think you should think again. I agree with you that some are terribly bred and very blocky and clumsy looking. But there are breeders that breed amazing GSD’s as well. For instance do you still think these are too blocky and heavy?
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Regarding other breeds I don’t have a lot of ideas as for now. The thing with IGP and protection sport is that this demand a dog that have a high trainability, drive and willingness to work with, and for the handler, great work ethic and an instinct to protect or natural aggression.

It’s the combination of all of the traits mentioned above that can be quite tricky to find in a lot of breeds. Especially if you have high ambitions and really want to make sure you get a dog that is suitable for this. I’m sure you can practice IGP with other breeds as well but they’re not as safe a card as of the typical breeds (GSD, Belgian/Dutch Shepard, Doberman, Giant schnauzer, Rottweiler etc).
 

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Discussion Starter #50
I somehow fear that I myself am not stable enough for a Belgian now. Well, I'll definitely reconsider the GDS and search for some other breeders than I found before. I think czech lines are more slender...
Is there another breed that maybe meets the characteristics of BS and GDS in between? I recently talked to a trainer I considered and he said the Dutch Shepherd would be an option. Although they are a bit on the smaller side, he said that they are driven, but have an "off switch". Or should I just gain more experience and settle on a GDS?
 

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I somehow fear that I myself am not stable enough for a Belgian now. Well, I'll definitely reconsider the GDS and search for some other breeders than I found before. I think czech lines are more slender...
Is there another breed that maybe meets the characteristics of BS and GDS in between? I recently talked to a trainer I considered and he said the Dutch Shepherd would be an option. Although they are a bit on the smaller side, he said that they are driven, but have an "off switch". Or should I just gain more experience and settle on a GDS?
Well I don’t think you should settle on any breed at this moment. Keep your mind and options open. Research the breeds an the available breeders. Get to know the different breeds, gather experience and information. Then you can make a decision.

I don’t know that much about the Dutch Shepard but it for sure could be an option. As for a breed that’s in between the BS and GSD I don’t know right now. But what is it about the GSD you don’t particularly like?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Except the appearance? They are far to loud for me, with a very high pitched bark - I have never met a quiet gds.
They are too heavy. I know that BSs are still very strong dogs, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to stop a GDS if it started pulling or lift it up, for example at the vets, as I am quite small. Those ~10-15kg make a huge difference.
A part of my family is afraid of dogs, especially of GDS, bully and mastiff breeds. I don't know why. I want to be able to keep some contact with them (they don't visit often and said they won't at all if I get such a dog), so I thought a similiary high, but lankier dog would be some sort of a compromise. Still a dog that I would want to get, but not igniting any conflict in the family. The GDS in my area also has a very bad reputation, as most of them are not socialized (the owners want them to be "aggressive"), so socializing the puppy with other dogs would be hard.
Last but not least, I heard they also droll more than, for example a BS, which I honestly really don't like.
The shedding is also something I don't welcome openly. I can deal with a fair amount, but I think they weren't dubbed the 'german shedder' for no reason.
 

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Except the appearance? They are far to loud for me, with a very high pitched bark - I have never met a quiet gds.
They are too heavy. I know that BSs are still very strong dogs, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to stop a GDS if it started pulling or lift it up, for example at the vets, as I am quite small. Those ~10-15kg make a huge difference.
A part of my family is afraid of dogs, especially of GDS, bully and mastiff breeds. I don't know why. I want to be able to keep some contact with them (they don't visit often and said they won't at all if I get such a dog), so I thought a similiary high, but lankier dog would be some sort of a compromise. Still a dog that I would want to get, but not igniting any conflict in the family. The GDS in my area also has a very bad reputation, as most of them are not socialized (the owners want them to be "aggressive"), so socializing the puppy with other dogs would be hard.
Last but not least, I heard they also droll more than, for example a BS, which I honestly really don't like.
The shedding is also something I don't welcome openly. I can deal with a fair amount, but I think they weren't dubbed the 'german shedder' for no reason.
Okay I understand. But I don’t think you should rule out a breed just because of how other perceive it or their misjudgment of the breed. Choose a breed that suits you and your lifestyle. You don’t have to worry about not being able to lift the dog at the vets, if it’s too heavy they will help you. The size and weight could be a problem in other scenarios but I wouldn’t worry about the vet. I’m also not sure how much heavier they would be (than the bs) when they’re bred to be leaner and mor fit.

However I understand if there’s other things you don’t like about the breed, but as I previously said, don’t settle on a breed just yet. Keep your options open and keep doing research to find out which breed would suit you the best.
 
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