[dogtraveler]

Alright ladies step aside J (since someone brought up the man thing earlier)
I will say that since you have only had your pup for 6 weeks it has not even settled into your/his new environment.
He is still learning what the ground rules are.
I know a lot of times especially for us guys we jump to the quick results and are under the assumption that if in this length of time they have not learned/listened to direct commands it is time for the "heavy" hand. And as some have already told you this will work short term perhaps even long term with stipulations (see below).
The choice you have to make is do you wish to have a pet who loves and respects you and comes and obeys you because he knows you will keep him safe/have something fantastic to give him (even if it is just a belly rub) or do you want an animal who fears you comes to you only because he does not want to have the "heavy" handed approach used on him again and only shows his belly out of fear.
Think of it as teaching a toddler would you manhandle a child because he did something similar if the answer is “No” than you should not do it to your pet. A good example was given to you earlier about pet eating something that will hurt him.
And as for your time frame once he has settled in (rough guess is about 3 months) you will find that this training method works great and with practice you will be amazed how well it works and so will most friends. Spend some time reading the stickies given to you as well as watching Kikopup videos on youtube.
I will end with welcome to the forum nice to have a little more testosterone around J
Also this training method may at times feel slower but the rewards far out way the time saved

 

[Timrf79]

Thanks for the feedback. I think for just 6 weeks here and about 1 year old she is doing pretty well.

And while understand the idea behind positive reinforcement and believe it is the right thing to do in the long run, I still need to make sure the here and now is OK as well.

I am certain that she is part Husky and as far as I know they are a difficult breed. They listen in training (inside/outside with distractions, etc..) but not so well when it comes to it. For example I can throw treats on the ground during a training session and she wont even move (I wouldn't even know when to give the leave it command), however during a walk i can show her treats and she does not even care.

I watched Kikopups videos and she is one that speaks not to manhandle a dog, like pulling on the leash.
Honestly if I do not pull Sophie on the leash, we would not make it past 1/4 mile and she would eat tons of cat,dog and coyote poo, as well as every other trash on the ground (including tons of chicken bones). Once she zoned in a a sniff target there is NOTHING right now i can do to distract her, other than to drag her away.
So if I would not use force (pulling her away) I would either be confined of not walking her at all (not an option) or walking in my yard (which is a wee bit too small).

Earlier this week at the dog park I saw how difficult it is to handle a not properly trained dog. As a 90lbs lab did not want to give up Sophies squeaker toy. The owner had to pry out of his mouth and got growled at... Certainly a good drop-it training earlier would have helped...

If compared raising a dog like a kid, well I would be much stricter to a kid than to the dog. I certainly would not feed my kid treats all day long just for sleeping peacefully next to me...

 

[SusanLynn]

I've lost track of bit on your posts, but have you enrolled Sophie in an obedience class yet? I think you might both benefit from a class in which a trainer can give you some tips on how to get her to pay closer attention to you on walks.

Before my current dogs, I had a 60 lb. Great Pyrenees mix, and with a little training, I was able to get him to leave most objects alone when we went out on walks. I found that I had better success with "leave it" than with "drop it." The classes I took with him helped a lot.

 

[Timrf79]

I can't afford training classes right now.
We are down to one income currently...

 

[SusanLynn]

My city has a dog obedience club that teaches a ten-week course in the basics for just $50. They advertise through the city's community services department. You might want to search around for affordable options in your area.

With my former dog, I did a lot of practice with very simple commands: sit, let's go, leave it, and look at me. I wasn't entirely successful all of the time. We never mastered "drop it," and he'd pull hard when he saw a squirrel, but we enjoyed quite a few walks.

 

[SusanLynn]

Also, try your city's Parks and Recreation division. Sometimes they will offer low-cost classes.

Another member who started out with an untrained, un-walkable dog is Lab4Life. She has a 90-lb lab. Here's her thread in which she had her break-out moment. At the bottom of the first page is a description of some of the techniques her trainer taught her. You might find that helpful.

http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training-behavior/update-my-1st-day-training-amazing-146074/

 

[Timrf79]

Thanks for the link to the thread. I find it interesting that the training method described qualifies as positive, since the dog was manhandled (forced) into a different direction and thereby learned to follow the owner.

Going back to my original point, some things need to be tought with force&punishment
(as the dog was forced with a leash to follow the owner and punished for not paying attention)

 

[patronizingrabbits]

Going back to my original point, some things need to be tought with force&punishment

Have you not been reading everyone's responses?

 

[cookieface]

Thanks for the link to the thread. I find it interesting that the training method described qualifies as positive, since the dog was manhandled (forced) into a different direction and thereby learned to follow the owner.

I wouldn't consider the training described in that thread as positive reinforcement-based. For loose leash walking, I've found that chose to heel and penalty yards are just as effective as startling and yanking.

Going back to my original point, some things need to be tought with force&punishment
(as the dog was forced with a leash to follow the owner and punished for not paying attention)

It sounds as though you're looking for an excuse to use force and punishment. If so, you won't find it here.

 

[ZoesMom]

I can't afford training classes right now.
We are down to one income currently...

Have you looked at any of the links I provided you?

Kikopup on youtube uploads FREE dog training tutorials and only uses force free methods.

https://dogmantics.com/free-video-list/

Also, if you look in our Dog Training Stickies Section there are tons of free tutorials there as well.

 

[SusanLynn]

Oh well...... maybe not quite the right thread. Good luck to you anyways.

 

[Grabby]

Huskies aren't an easy breed. They have a high prey drive and were bred to work long hours which most pet homes can't provide. That doesn't mean you can't train any dog to walk without pulling. Most dogs don't willingly walk at our slow, boring pace. It takes time, a lot of it and consistency. If you can't get your head around that concept, you'll never have a dog who will walk at your speed. I see a Husky jogging along beside his owner every morning on my way to work. I've never seen this dog pulling.

A flirt pole can be a life saver for dogs that have a lot of energy to burn. Not sure if Sophie was recently spayed. Sorry but sometimes I'm too lazy to check my memory. When she's healed up and can be active again, you can make your own pretty cheaply. Google it. You can also get a doggy backpack. Start with light weighted items, like a water bottle on each side. Gives her a job to do and it can make a big difference for some dogs.

If you're convinced force and punishment are the only methods that will work, you haven't been paying attention or reading any of the many links and articles on this site.

 

[zouzou]

Thanks for the feedback. I think for just 6 weeks here and about 1 year old she is doing pretty well.

And while understand the idea behind positive reinforcement and believe it is the right thing to do in the long run, I still need to make sure the here and now is OK as well.

I am certain that she is part Husky and as far as I know they are a difficult breed. They listen in training (inside/outside with distractions, etc..) but not so well when it comes to it. For example I can throw treats on the ground during a training session and she wont even move (I wouldn't even know when to give the leave it command), however during a walk i can show her treats and she does not even care.

I watched Kikopups videos and she is one that speaks not to manhandle a dog, like pulling on the leash.
Honestly if I do not pull Sophie on the leash, we would not make it past 1/4 mile and she would eat tons of cat,dog and coyote poo, as well as every other trash on the ground (including tons of chicken bones). Once she zoned in a a sniff target there is NOTHING right now i can do to distract her, other than to drag her away.
So if I would not use force (pulling her away) I would either be confined of not walking her at all (not an option) or walking in my yard (which is a wee bit too small).

Earlier this week at the dog park I saw how difficult it is to handle a not properly trained dog. As a 90lbs lab did not want to give up Sophies squeaker toy. The owner had to pry out of his mouth and got growled at... Certainly a good drop-it training earlier would have helped...

If compared raising a dog like a kid, well I would be much stricter to a kid than to the dog. I certainly would not feed my kid treats all day long just for sleeping peacefully next to me...

Hi Timrf79, I understand that this is a really difficult time for you, especially as you weren't exactly planning on getting a dog. I just want you to direct you towards this blog, it's written by a dog trainer who has crossed over from forceful methods to training as gently and positively as humanly possible. She talks about training philosophies, shares her mistakes, demonstrates the importance of management, and is very good at demonstrating the efficacy of positive reinforcement and the problems with forceful methods- in a scientific and theoretical way as well as emotionally. I hope you can read some of her articles and get a more thorough understanding of why we use positive reinforcement and how to maximise its effectiveness.

eileenanddogs | What my dogs teach me.eileenanddogs | What my dogs teach me.

(Kikopup is great for training tips, but her perfect-seeming dogs can be a little frustrating to watch sometimes, and Eileen is very candid about her failings as well as her successes.)

 

[zouzou]

Oh, and I'm not sure if anyone's recommended this book to you, but I think it could be another good read: http://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1404500072&sr=8-1&keywords=when+pigs+fly

 

[laceyj19]

I can understand where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel like I have to accomplish everything in a short time, and that only adds to the stress of the situation. Sometimes I just need a minute to breathe. The puppy I have now is the first dog I'm raising using only positive reinforcement training, and believe me, it is challenging. So hard not to revert to the old ways of training in which I was taught. I'm looking forward to the journey though. So just hang in there, and stick around. These lovely people here on DF are a great resource.
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[Timrf79]

Huskies aren't an easy breed. They have a high prey drive and were bred to work long hours which most pet homes can't provide. That doesn't mean you can't train any dog to walk without pulling. Most dogs don't willingly walk at our slow, boring pace. It takes time, a lot of it and consistency. If you can't get your head around that concept, you'll never have a dog who will walk at your speed. I see a Husky jogging along beside his owner every morning on my way to work. I've never seen this dog pulling.

A flirt pole can be a life saver for dogs that have a lot of energy to burn. Not sure if Sophie was recently spayed. Sorry but sometimes I'm too lazy to check my memory. When she's healed up and can be active again, you can make your own pretty cheaply. Google it. You can also get a doggy backpack. Start with light weighted items, like a water bottle on each side. Gives her a job to do and it can make a big difference for some dogs.

If you're convinced force and punishment are the only methods that will work, you haven't been paying attention or reading any of the many links and articles on this site.

Actually if you see me and Sophie run, you would see a guy running in front of the dog. From time to time I might be pulling her a bit on the leash (despite my super slow pace).

However, I am NOT saying that force and punishment is the ONLY way.

I am saying that even when emphasizing positive reinforcements, you will still have to apply force and punishment from time to time.
And I am not talking about draconian punishment, force is anything in which we use our superior strength or intellect and force the dog.

Some Examples:
1.) In Sophie's case this is most commonly when I grab her collar and walk her to her crate for a time out, after she is getting in a fight with the cat.
The time-out (3-5 minutes) is the punishment.
2.)When she starts biting my hands/arms that I stop paying attention to her, this is psychological punishment.
3.)At home the "Leave it" command works like a charm. In the house, yard or on the street in front of the house, nothing i drop on the floor is getting eaten. However on a walk, it never works. So clearly I have some further training to do. But until she gets the command down, I will have to forcefull either pry stuff out of her mouth or pull her away from (as I can not tell if the crap on the ground is chocolate, poop, chicken bones...)

 

[Timrf79]

Hi Timrf79, I understand that this is a really difficult time for you, especially as you weren't exactly planning on getting a dog. I just want you to direct you towards this blog, it's written by a dog trainer who has crossed over from forceful methods to training as gently and positively as humanly possible. She talks about training philosophies, shares her mistakes, demonstrates the importance of management, and is very good at demonstrating the efficacy of positive reinforcement and the problems with forceful methods- in a scientific and theoretical way as well as emotionally. I hope you can read some of her articles and get a more thorough understanding of why we use positive reinforcement and how to maximise its effectiveness.

eileenanddogs | What my dogs teach me.eileenanddogs | What my dogs teach me.

(Kikopup is great for training tips, but her perfect-seeming dogs can be a little frustrating to watch sometimes, and Eileen is very candid about her failings as well as her successes.)

Thanks for the link I will read some.

I personally prefer "Training Positive" over Kikopup https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRyHBkIJ90SZNRyq1iVda5g

Not sure why, haha

 

[Timrf79]

I started reading on that blog and I really like it. Using the Humane Hierarchy clearly shows that there are limits to positive reinforcement. It also explains how some of the methods listed in this forum would qualify as "positive punishment". I will keeping reading at this, as it is very informative.

 

[crock]

Tim, Many of us here use negative punishment when applicable; however, if you see something you think is positive punishment you should report it as that quadrant is innately aversive and against forum rules. Anyways, I like the Humane Hierarchy and LIMA principles, too, but don't use them as ways to justify using force and aversives in training. 99% of the time, the handler could use pr and if they are struggling it is their error, thus moving to something more harsh isn't going to necessarily improve the outcome. If you want to use positive punishment, no one here can stop you, but it isn't likely because of pr's shortcomings.

As to your examples above, #1 if you are grabbing her collar in a way that intimidates her, you are likely just increasing any negative associations with yourself and with the cat. Not to mention, using a crate as a time out or punishment is generally counter productive to crate training, and such a disconnected punishment from her action is kind of pointless in teaching the dog anything. #2 is negative punishment. Hopefully you are pairing it with pr so that she gets feedback when she is doing the right thing. #3 has nothing to do with training; that is a management action, doing what you need to do to keep her safe. Don't even bother giving her your cue until you know she will listen to it in the real world. And hopefully you are working on trading games because repeatedly taking stuff out of her mouth is likely going to increase her speed in gobbling things down or risk rg'ing from you. Best to keep an eye on the ground as you walk to prevent access to those things in the first place.

I am still really failing to see why you think you need to use positive punishment or force in training. Nothing you have discussed requires it. Ie taking food out of her mouth is not training. Time outs are better used as breaks to collect themselves; as you are using them, likely ineffective for your goal.
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[Timrf79]

As to your examples above, #1 if you are grabbing her collar in a way that intimidates her, you are likely just increasing any negative associations with yourself and with the cat. Not to mention, using a crate as a time out or punishment is generally counter productive to crate training, and such a disconnected punishment from her action is kind of pointless in teaching the dog anything.

I understand what you are saying, however I need to separate dog and cat to avoid them seriously hurting each other. So far this time out has calmed her down every time, allowing her to take part in non caged life shortly thereafter. Also before I pull her away I try to get her attention with toys or a recall (and a click and a treat)

#2 is negative punishment. Hopefully you are pairing it with pr so that she gets feedback when she is doing the right thing.

When her bone or rope/toy is close by I remove my arm/hand and place the bone in her mouth. While playing with her. Hoping she will learn this way what is OK to bit and what not.

#3 has nothing to do with training; that is a management action, doing what you need to do to keep her safe. Don't even bother giving her your cue until you know she will listen to it in the real world. And hopefully you are working on trading games because repeatedly taking stuff out of her mouth is likely going to increase her speed in gobbling things down or risk rg'ing from you. Best to keep an eye on the ground as you walk to prevent access to those things in the first place.

Not sure how long she lived on the streets, but she is so good and finding stuff I don't see and eating them before I even notice. She can pick up paper from the sidewalk while in full walking speed...

I am still really failing to see why you think you need to use positive punishment or force in training. Nothing you have discussed requires it. Ie taking food out of her mouth is not training. Time outs are better used as breaks to collect themselves; as you are using them, likely ineffective for your goal.

Going back to my original post, I pointed out that many (especially Kikopup) state to NEVER man-handle your dog or use force. I asked if there is a better way to handle such a situation. This turned into a discussion which after 4 pages seems to conclude that usage of force is totally acceptable with a dog. As a situation management tool there is often no way around it and mild force (gentle tug on leash) is OK for some as a training tool.