Posts by crock
- Status
1 - 5 of 5 Posts
Joined
·
12,212 Posts
I understand why some people (men especially, sorry for the stereotyping but it goes into our culture's idea of masculinity) are resistant to sticking with PR--in your words, the "soft" approach. Yet, it has repeatedly been shown to be the most effective and efficient OC quadrant. Check out any of the links within this rule post: http://www.dogforum.com/training-be...les-guidelines-training-behavior-please-2868/
You're not alone in asking this, trust me. However, here's the thing that you should be asking yourself: if you do not understand or cannot effectively train with positive reinforcement--the method least likely to cause fallout, suppression, or shut down (see our sticky if you don't know what these are)--what makes you think that you can better understand and more effectively train with positive punishment? eg, Do you think you can better time your punishments than your reinforcements?
Do all dogs shudder and cower at a stern "no?" Of course not. But what is it adding to your training and relationship? It is less confusing and more effective to tell a dog what you'd like her to do (ie Leave it!) rather than what not do to (no!)--and it sets them up to succeed. One is specific and they can do exactly that; the other is vague and leaves them to guess what, of many, behaviors they should/can do next. Then there's the relationship aspect--do you want to use intimidation or threats, motivate out of fear to get what you want? That's exactly what a stern "no" does--it's widely understood by mammals that the lower any vocalization tone, the more aggressive it is. Plus, lower/stern tones often come unconsciously with more confrontational body language (humans lean forward/over, stiffen upper body, squint eyes, etc).
Here are some articles for your consideration as well:
Treat Training Trinity – Why positive reinforcement did not work for my dog. | awesomedogs
Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article
8 reasons why you shouldn’t train your dog using a spray bottle. | glasgowdogtrainer
Sacramento Dog Behavior Services
https://www.4pawsu.com/trainingmethods.htm
How to Solve Practically Any Annoying Dog Behavior Problem | 3 Lost Dogs
You're not alone in asking this, trust me. However, here's the thing that you should be asking yourself: if you do not understand or cannot effectively train with positive reinforcement--the method least likely to cause fallout, suppression, or shut down (see our sticky if you don't know what these are)--what makes you think that you can better understand and more effectively train with positive punishment? eg, Do you think you can better time your punishments than your reinforcements?
Do all dogs shudder and cower at a stern "no?" Of course not. But what is it adding to your training and relationship? It is less confusing and more effective to tell a dog what you'd like her to do (ie Leave it!) rather than what not do to (no!)--and it sets them up to succeed. One is specific and they can do exactly that; the other is vague and leaves them to guess what, of many, behaviors they should/can do next. Then there's the relationship aspect--do you want to use intimidation or threats, motivate out of fear to get what you want? That's exactly what a stern "no" does--it's widely understood by mammals that the lower any vocalization tone, the more aggressive it is. Plus, lower/stern tones often come unconsciously with more confrontational body language (humans lean forward/over, stiffen upper body, squint eyes, etc).
Here are some articles for your consideration as well:
Treat Training Trinity – Why positive reinforcement did not work for my dog. | awesomedogs
Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article
8 reasons why you shouldn’t train your dog using a spray bottle. | glasgowdogtrainer
Sacramento Dog Behavior Services
https://www.4pawsu.com/trainingmethods.htm
How to Solve Practically Any Annoying Dog Behavior Problem | 3 Lost Dogs
Joined
·
12,212 Posts
Also, I'm curious, why the 6 week time limit and why your doubts that you can't do much? A lot can actually be accomplished in that time, if you do a couple mini sessions (talking 2-5 minutes each) every day and/or also implement something like this: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.co...os-smart-x-50-another-way-to-use-1000-treats/ or http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2013/02/03/take-the-thousand-treat-challenge/ , but with her daily ration of kibble.
Joined
·
12,212 Posts
Tim, Many of us here use negative punishment when applicable; however, if you see something you think is positive punishment you should report it as that quadrant is innately aversive and against forum rules. Anyways, I like the Humane Hierarchy and LIMA principles, too, but don't use them as ways to justify using force and aversives in training. 99% of the time, the handler could use pr and if they are struggling it is their error, thus moving to something more harsh isn't going to necessarily improve the outcome. If you want to use positive punishment, no one here can stop you, but it isn't likely because of pr's shortcomings.
As to your examples above, #1 if you are grabbing her collar in a way that intimidates her, you are likely just increasing any negative associations with yourself and with the cat. Not to mention, using a crate as a time out or punishment is generally counter productive to crate training, and such a disconnected punishment from her action is kind of pointless in teaching the dog anything. #2 is negative punishment. Hopefully you are pairing it with pr so that she gets feedback when she is doing the right thing. #3 has nothing to do with training; that is a management action, doing what you need to do to keep her safe. Don't even bother giving her your cue until you know she will listen to it in the real world. And hopefully you are working on trading games because repeatedly taking stuff out of her mouth is likely going to increase her speed in gobbling things down or risk rg'ing from you. Best to keep an eye on the ground as you walk to prevent access to those things in the first place.
I am still really failing to see why you think you need to use positive punishment or force in training. Nothing you have discussed requires it. Ie taking food out of her mouth is not training. Time outs are better used as breaks to collect themselves; as you are using them, likely ineffective for your goal.
Posted via Mobile Device
As to your examples above, #1 if you are grabbing her collar in a way that intimidates her, you are likely just increasing any negative associations with yourself and with the cat. Not to mention, using a crate as a time out or punishment is generally counter productive to crate training, and such a disconnected punishment from her action is kind of pointless in teaching the dog anything. #2 is negative punishment. Hopefully you are pairing it with pr so that she gets feedback when she is doing the right thing. #3 has nothing to do with training; that is a management action, doing what you need to do to keep her safe. Don't even bother giving her your cue until you know she will listen to it in the real world. And hopefully you are working on trading games because repeatedly taking stuff out of her mouth is likely going to increase her speed in gobbling things down or risk rg'ing from you. Best to keep an eye on the ground as you walk to prevent access to those things in the first place.
I am still really failing to see why you think you need to use positive punishment or force in training. Nothing you have discussed requires it. Ie taking food out of her mouth is not training. Time outs are better used as breaks to collect themselves; as you are using them, likely ineffective for your goal.
Posted via Mobile Device
Joined
·
12,212 Posts
This turned into a discussion which after 4 pages seems to conclude that usage of force is totally acceptable with a dog. As a situation management tool there is often no way around it and mild force (gentle tug on leash) is OK for some as a training tool.[/QUOTE]
Better management is prevention so that you never get to the point of having to use force. Your examples are where you didn't manage to prevent so of course you can't just let her eat xyz. However, I dont think we have anywhere suggested that using mild force is okay in training?
Maybe if you focused on ways to set her up for success you wouldn't be so focused on the idea that you need to use force to get everything done.
The other thing is that every interaction is a learning experience with your dog. If you are pulling her away, reward her. If you have to grab something out of her mouth reward her. Just because you are in management mode doesn't mean she is distinguishing, and you need to follow up with good feedback so your touch is not a negative thing.
Posted via Mobile Device
Better management is prevention so that you never get to the point of having to use force. Your examples are where you didn't manage to prevent so of course you can't just let her eat xyz. However, I dont think we have anywhere suggested that using mild force is okay in training?
Maybe if you focused on ways to set her up for success you wouldn't be so focused on the idea that you need to use force to get everything done.
The other thing is that every interaction is a learning experience with your dog. If you are pulling her away, reward her. If you have to grab something out of her mouth reward her. Just because you are in management mode doesn't mean she is distinguishing, and you need to follow up with good feedback so your touch is not a negative thing.
Posted via Mobile Device
1 - 5 of 5 Posts
- Status
Join the discussion
