[Timrf79]

From what I understand you are not supposed to manhandle or bully your dog in any shape or form.
So today I was in the front of my house working on recall with Sophie.
She comes running towards me and finds a muffin wrapper in the grass and picks it up. Usually I would have grabbed her collar and pulled it out of her mouth.
But as I learn I guess this would be wrong.
So instead I called her over and waived a treat around.
Sophie looks at me and runs the other way and then munches down the wrapper...

Would I be better of just grabbing her and getting stuff she is not to eat out of her mouth, rather than letting her everything she wants to?
Apparently she is smart enough to know that she will get that treat later no matter what...

 

[Grabby]

The treat offered wasn't as tempting as what she already had in her mouth. That's not a failure of positive reinforcement. Teach a solid 'leave it' command.

 

[amaryllis]

Look, if your dog has something truly dangerous in her mouth and you don't yet have a solid leave it trained, yes, you manhandle her and get it away from her. I wouldn't manhandle a dog over a muffin wrapper, but cooked chicken bones, chocolate, things like that I absolutely would.

There's more to positive training than "waving a treat around". Positive training is training. It's also managing your dog's environment so she can't fail like she did. It's also protecting your dog from dangerous behaviors and situations.

If you are in the habit of manhandling your dog, it's no wonder she ran away from you. She knows what you'll do.

Here's how you actually train leave it.

 

[Kwenami]

Typically, positive reinforcement is rejected because you're doing something not quite right. Sometimes it's timing-you're too slow, or fast.

In the case of taking objects and grabbing them, you want to trade for something better as often as possible, and practice taking and giving high value rewards.

Another thing that can sometimes work is instead of holding the treat, throw it on the ground in front of your dog. This allows them to make the choice much easier, where they don't expect you to grab the original item...then lure them away with a line of treats.

Check out 'resource guarding'...you can resolve this the same way.

 

[ZoesMom]

Actually, what you did isn't positive reinforcement. That was bribing. There's a huge difference. Positive reinforcement is: you cue the dog to do a known behavior + dog performs behavior = dog receives the reward. Waving food in front of the dog's face to get them to stop doing something is bribing. Now we can muddy it up a bit more and talk about food luring. Food luring is where you use a piece of food to lure a dog into a specific position and then they get the treat.

Anyways, I'd recommend teaching a leave it as Grabby already posted and I would also work on a positive interrupter.

Leave it part 1 - YouTube

How to teach 'leave it'- without intimidation Dog training tutorial - YouTube

Leave it part 2- adding eye contact! - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYfKK17ZBs

How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter - clicker dog training - YouTube

I would also recommend taking the training a step back, maybe go inside where there are less distractions and get some solid behaviors before moving back outside.

 

[kelly528]

In addition to training a solid leave it, I like to counter-condition dogs to having their mouths handled. That way I have a back-up plan in case they cannot spit the object out (i.e. string, plastic wrap stuck in the teeth) or my 'leave-it' is a little slow coming to them for some reason. That way I can get in there with my fingers and pull the old switcheroo with a treat from my pouch.

The danger of simply grabbing the object is that there's an easy way for the dog to get around that: they bite!!!

In fact, Toby's only issue where he gets really aggressive is when he finds something that he shouldn't have. Way back ten years ago, we'd customarily grab him like a hog, flip him onto his back and just grab the object out. We had never heard of purely PR training and wanted to show him that the Alpha Dog always gets the object. For years upon years, it wasn't a huge problem. Frankly I think he became quite used to being pinned, as we did it a lot during play but also as a form of discipline. Then he reached 8 or so, and lost a bit of his good humour and began to snap when we tried to take things. He had taken to growling when we showed up in the middle of his little plunderings of an open cupboard or a lunch box, but again we'd just chuckle, grab him, over he goes and out came the sandwich/granola bar/cookie. We resorted to begin quicker than him now, grabbing him and flipping him over, and holding him down a little longer for his sass.

Now he's one month shy of 11. If he gets ahold of something we didn't give him... He goes into all-out finders keepers mode. He literally looks like some strange albino racoon that found its way into the house. Nobody is interested in sticking their fingers near him now. Looking at his snarling and snapping, there's no question that he'd bite, and hard, if we tried to grab him. He doesn't listen to leave it, doesn't care about the treat we try to trade. The only thing that will reliably snap him out of it is to ring the doorbell (he's bonkers for guests) and then quickly take his spoils of war while he runs off to check.

The other week he did it when he got ahold of some granola bars and looking at him I couldn't help but think, Wow, if this dog were any bigger, this would be the sort of problem you'd rehome a dog for. It is bad. I loathe to say it but it's straight out aggression.

 

[Doglover24]

You could walk over their stomping your feet and shouting no before ripping it out if their mouth, but it doesnt teach them anything. Teaching drop it is much more effective.

I usually go over and grab the collar (because logan thinks its hilarious when you chase him) and tell him to drop it, and when he does i give him a treat and do the whole happy dance.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[crock]

To add, check out the trading games video in the resource guarding sticky.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[TiggerBounce]

If you continue to grab her, do you want to know what she will learn?

She will learn that every time she finds something yummy, mommy/daddy is going to reach over and STEAL it from her. This will result in her taking action to keep that from happening. It could end up in games of keep-away, where she runs from you. It could end up with her thinking that growling or snapping could make you go away. She might decide that she needs to eat that yummy thing REALLY REALLY FAST before you have a chance to try and steal it.

Regardless of what strategy she chooses, you're going to end up with bigger problems than what you have now.

It's a far better idea to teach her a "leave it" command as well as "drop". Positive reinforcement has not failed here...You have. You need to take time to teach those cues. You have to teach her that giving you objects when you ask is super rewarding. You have to teach her that leaving tempting thing when you ask results in an even better reward. She has no idea what you want her to do. Positive reinforcement isn't about waiving a treat around and thinking it'll solve things. She doesn't understand what you want.

 

[Lab4Life]

Im not sure how the majority feels about her ^ But I like this video the most (for me) because this dog acts the most like Chewy and realistic to me. I <3 the Kikopup videos but my dog never seems to respond like the dogs in her videos, which can make me frustrated and I think "what am I doing wrong?!" and end up with questions. The dog in Victoria's video even trys to paw at her, typical Chewy move!

 

[Bigargylesock]

I had great success with teaching drop using the domesticated manners youtube video, but sometimes my dog still wouldnt drop due to having something really "good". Have some really good treats with you for moments like that, and reward the drop, even if the dog just let the object out if their mouth to get a better grip on it. That's always when I yell DROP again and throw the high value treat away from the forbidden object. It took me a long time to proof "drop" and "leave it" but it's really all about practice and patience. Lately I say drop and my dog looks at me, slooooowly puts down the forbidden item, and comes over to my hand for a treat. I only have to use domesticated manners for really high value forbidden objects now.

So practice practice practice. Practice "drop" inside the house a lot, then move outside. This process can take a long time but it's worth it!!!
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Timrf79]

My question was somewhat general.
The issue is that since we just got her there are so many things to work on:
Sit, Down, DropIt, Recall, dont chase cats, dont bark in house, don't bite my toes, don't bite my arms, don't eat cat food, don't eat cat poop, don't pee on carpet...

I can not train all these things in 6 weeks with positive reinforcement.
And if the soft approach doesn't work (like positive interrupter when she is biting my toes), the challenge is what to do then.

It seems to me that the theory of "Alpha" dog is kinda frowned upon, also if this is not connected to training by punishment. It seems to me that while good behavior should be rewarded a stern "No" is in order for bad behavior. And if the latter doesn't suffice either a time out (in crate or outside) has to be in order. Which always involved "manhandling": the dog that is focused on just biting your toes/chasing the cat/eating the poop/etc...

Is that about right?

 

[kelly528]

I honestly don't even tell dogs 'No'. Not sternly, with an intent to shock, scare, intimidate, or else wise. I do like a punishment marker for when I am using negative punishment (taking a fun thing away).

For instance, if I get to a house and the dog is going bonkers jumping up and won't ignore an 'off' on the second time, I just say 'too bad', turn on my heel and leave. This gets them thinking 'well dang, now I'm not going on my walk!'. I sit on the stoop and browse DF and try again from the top a minute later. The dogs that I walk learn quickly that I am a very predictable person, and that I can do this all day long if they would like. But 100% of the time, they'd rather cut the crap and go on their walk already!!!

The only instance where a time out works as far as I am concerned is if the dog is in a high-arousal mode and simply cannot calm down for long enough to think straight. In this case, you're removing them to a calm, low-distraction zone so that they can take a breather and cool their jets.

When a dog is doing something naughty, to me this is an indicator of any combination of three things:

a) They need to know what they should be doing. All four paws not he floor, chewing on their rawhide instead of the couch, coming to me when they see a dog/person they want to greet, etc. This is achieved by training and capturing desired behaviours.

b) They need something better to do! A walk, training session or play to burn off excess energy, a toy to chase instead of the cat, something tasty that's acceptable for them to chew, or a puzzle toy to get food out of.

c) They need to be capable of choosing the desired behaviour. A prey-driven dog needs LAT/BAT training to enable them to ignore squirrels. A dog with separation anxiety needs counterconditioning to remain sane without eating the bed. An impulsive dog needs impulse control to learn to say 'no' to the sandwich you dropped.​

If the dog is doing something like chasing the cats, I think that a sufficient way of dealing if they just can't ignore a 'leave-it' is to tell them 'You're coming with me, how d'you like that?!' and tether them to you That way they put it together fast that if they want free run of the house/park/yard/etc... they can't be chasing cats, dogs or people!!! Of course, this sort of training doesn't work alone: you have to be confident that the dog can maintain some control of their chase instinct, by methods such as counter-conditioning and desensitization. And they have to be rewarded for proper behaviour, for as many weeks/months/years as you feel necessary.

My advice? Buy a good waist-clip treat bag that is handy for you to use. Wash the dog bowl and put it away in the cupboard. Good behaviour is Sophie's new food bowl now. Put a day's worth of food in a bag on the counter and top your pouch off as necessary. When you notice her doing things you want her to do, even if its as simple as lying around not bugging the cats, that is when you feed her. Any surplus food can be put into puzzle toys to keep her further occupied.

 

[crock]

I understand why some people (men especially, sorry for the stereotyping but it goes into our culture's idea of masculinity) are resistant to sticking with PR--in your words, the "soft" approach. Yet, it has repeatedly been shown to be the most effective and efficient OC quadrant. Check out any of the links within this rule post: http://www.dogforum.com/training-be...les-guidelines-training-behavior-please-2868/

You're not alone in asking this, trust me. However, here's the thing that you should be asking yourself: if you do not understand or cannot effectively train with positive reinforcement--the method least likely to cause fallout, suppression, or shut down (see our sticky if you don't know what these are)--what makes you think that you can better understand and more effectively train with positive punishment? eg, Do you think you can better time your punishments than your reinforcements?

Do all dogs shudder and cower at a stern "no?" Of course not. But what is it adding to your training and relationship? It is less confusing and more effective to tell a dog what you'd like her to do (ie Leave it!) rather than what not do to (no!)--and it sets them up to succeed. One is specific and they can do exactly that; the other is vague and leaves them to guess what, of many, behaviors they should/can do next. Then there's the relationship aspect--do you want to use intimidation or threats, motivate out of fear to get what you want? That's exactly what a stern "no" does--it's widely understood by mammals that the lower any vocalization tone, the more aggressive it is. Plus, lower/stern tones often come unconsciously with more confrontational body language (humans lean forward/over, stiffen upper body, squint eyes, etc).

Here are some articles for your consideration as well:
Treat Training Trinity – Why positive reinforcement did not work for my dog. | awesomedogs
Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article
8 reasons why you shouldn’t train your dog using a spray bottle. | glasgowdogtrainer
Sacramento Dog Behavior Services
https://www.4pawsu.com/trainingmethods.htm
How to Solve Practically Any Annoying Dog Behavior Problem | 3 Lost Dogs

 

[crock]

Also, I'm curious, why the 6 week time limit and why your doubts that you can't do much? A lot can actually be accomplished in that time, if you do a couple mini sessions (talking 2-5 minutes each) every day and/or also implement something like this: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.co...os-smart-x-50-another-way-to-use-1000-treats/ or http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2013/02/03/take-the-thousand-treat-challenge/ , but with her daily ration of kibble.

 

[TiggerBounce]

My question was somewhat general.
The issue is that since we just got her there are so many things to work on:
Sit, Down, DropIt, Recall, dont chase cats, dont bark in house, don't bite my toes, don't bite my arms, don't eat cat food, don't eat cat poop, don't pee on carpet...

I can not train all these things in 6 weeks with positive reinforcement.
And if the soft approach doesn't work (like positive interrupter when she is biting my toes), the challenge is what to do then.

It seems to me that the theory of "Alpha" dog is kinda frowned upon, also if this is not connected to training by punishment. It seems to me that while good behavior should be rewarded a stern "No" is in order for bad behavior. And if the latter doesn't suffice either a time out (in crate or outside) has to be in order. Which always involved "manhandling": the dog that is focused on just biting your toes/chasing the cat/eating the poop/etc...

Is that about right?

Nope. Not right at all.

Dogs are not moral animals. They do not have morals. They don't understand good from bad or right from wrong. They perform behaviors that receive reinforcement. The behaviors that we see as "bad", they do because they get some sort of reinforcement and gratification from doing it. Not coming when called, pulling, chasing things, chewing...They are all self-reinforcing. No amount of yelling NO at the dog, man handling it, or putting it in time out will make those behaviors cease to be reinforcing. You might frighten the dog or shut the dog down enough that it stops. But it's not going to be 100% reliable, and is that really why you want your dog to listen? Because it's afraid of you?

Force-free training is about being smarter than the dog. You alter what gets reinforced. You provide alternatives. You prevent unwanted but self-reinforcing behaviors from being performed. You form habits. It's about changing your own mindset and how you see her behavior.

Just as an example, in your list of things you want to accomplish, all I see is a bunch of don'ts. Don't do this, don't do that, don't eat cat poop, don't eat cat food. Your not going to get very far, even with punishment. You will struggle to teach your dog DON'T. Think about alternatives. What can the dog do instead of biting your arm or toes, that you can make equally reinforcing? Instead of don't bark, how about teaching your dog what "be quiet" means? What can the dog do when the cat is around instead of chasing it, that you can make equally reinforcing? See what I mean?

As far as potty training and not eating kitty poop or food, that's all on you. You are responsible for PREVENTING those behaviors. It's not your dogs job to learn not to do things when those things are reinforcing and can be done when you don't watch her. You're setting her up to fail. She will never learn that eating cat food is a bad thing to do. Cat food is yummy. WHy shouldn't she? She might learn that she can't do it in front of you because you'll yell at her. But when you're back is turned? Free game.

Put the cat food up high, or put the cat on a feeding schedule. Hide the litter box, get a concealed one, or install a cat door to the room the box is in if your dog is large and can't get through one. Pick your battles. Eating cat food/poop is one you will not win.

For potty training, again, she will never understand that it's morally wrong or bad to potty inside. You can put her in time out, or spank her, you can yell no...But you only make your own life more difficult. She will only learn that going potty in front of you makes you turn scary. Potty training is a habit that's formed over time. It's not going to be a lightbulb moment where one day she will understand. It's your job to never leave her unattended, and never give her the chance to pee on the carpet. Take her out regularly. Supervise her constantly. Crate her or put her outside when you can't supervise her. If she pees, smack yourself for letting her have that opportunity. Clean it up with an enzymatic cleaner, and set an alarm to remind you to take her out.

 

[Timrf79]

Also, I'm curious, why the 6 week time limit and why your doubts that you can't do much? A lot can actually be accomplished in that time, if you do a couple mini sessions (talking 2-5 minutes each) every day and/or also implement something like this: Kathy Sdao’s SMART x 50 – Another Way to Use 1,000 Treats | Dogs and Babies or Take the Thousand Treat Challenge! | Dogs and Babies , but with her daily ration of kibble.

The 6 weeks is not a limit to train, it is the time the dog has been with me.
Since we did not plan on getting a dog, but rather the dog decided that we would make a good home for it. We where not prepared per say.

So in these 6 weeks so far, I spent a good week trying to find the original owner. Some time to read up on dogs and training methods. Found a place to get her spayed and then succesively had her spayed and managed the aftercare.

We have to work with her on not chasing the cats, sit, down, potty only outside and how to give a signal, walking on the leash, not jumping up on people, recall, fetch, leave it, etc...

All this in just 6 weeks, is just not happening, which means that if not other possible I have to use force. Which may be fishing something from her mouth, dragging her away from a gith with a cat or pulling her along on the leash...

 

[Laurelin]

If you end up in a bad situation that you haven't had time to train for (or just haven't trained for) you're in management mode vs actually training. Sometimes you have to manage the dog then take a mental note of 'I obviously need to work on ________' and then train and proof for it so if it happens again you DO have the training to go with it.

And that really goes for any method of training, not just positive training. If you haven't trained it... you can't expect the dog to know what to do.

You can also manage the surroundings so she has less access to get into trouble. Depending on how much trouble your dog is that can be more or less painful.... Mia had to spend quite some time literally tethered to me as a puppy because she was an incredible little handful.

When your dog is doing something bad also show her what to do instead! She has something you don't want her to have? Give her something she can have (toy or chew or what have you). She jumps? Teach her that if she wants to get attention she must sit. Etc.

It takes time though.

 

[amaryllis]

At 6 weeks, my dog was still working on not being terrified. I didn't even try training until 3 months. At 2.5 years, he uses sit to say "please", looks at me when he sees squirrels and drops dead birds on cue.

Owning a dog is not a race. You'll be together a good long time. Make that time good for both of you.

 

[SusanLynn]

Tim,

I just wanted to say that I admire you and your wife for welcoming Sophie into your home when she happened across her home. She really knew what she was doing when she chose you.