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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

I have a 2 year old male westie. Everyone on the internet says that dogs do not do stuff out of revenge and this is just made up by our minds. If this is true, what would be a reasonable explanation for the following:

my dog is well trained and only does his needs outside. He never pees in the house, except when we groom him. If we groom him - which he doesn't like - he will pee in the house overnight, while we are a sleep, on a tall speaker. He never pees on that speaker if he is not groomed, and he will pee on the speaker if he is groomed with I'd say 95% certainty. And he always does it overnight while we are a sleep. Also, this has been going on for some time now, so health issue can be ruled out - been many times to the vet during this period.

For me this a clear action - effect type of event like Pavlov's experiment

Any logical explanation is more than welcomed :)

thanks!
 

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I think this is a made up scenario. I think anyone who actually had a dog do this would crate them after grooming to prevent speaker abuse, but as I said, I have doubts that this actually happened.
I do not think that dogs have the reasoning ability to cook up revenge plots, housebreaking is a matter of training.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think this is a made up scenario. I think anyone who actually had a dog do this would crate them after grooming to prevent speaker abuse, but as I said, I have doubts that this actually happened.
I do not think that dogs have the reasoning ability to cook up revenge plots, housebreaking is a matter of training.
Hi Lucille, unfortunately your answer is no help at all. Its your option not believing, but, as I said, this brings no value in my thread.

Crate him? For what? I mean, would you crate your dog for a night to prevent peeing after grooming each time? It doesn't make sense to me and it defeats the purpose of my question: how would this be explainable if dogs do not have a sense of revenge for unlikeable experiences.

By the way, I'd appreciate if you would refrain from comments like 'this is a lie' as they bring no value in this discussion
 

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It sounds like your dog has some sort of anxiety about grooming and needs to pee at night afterwards. The speaker probably just smells like pee a little so he returns to that. If you'd like to correct the behaviour take a look at the origin. If you can make grooming less of an ordeal I suspect the peeing would disappear.
 

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It sounds like your dog has some sort of anxiety about grooming and needs to pee at night afterwards. The speaker probably just smells like pee a little so he returns to that. If you'd like to correct the behaviour take a look at the origin. If you can make grooming less of an ordeal I suspect the peeing would disappear.
I agree. This totally sounds like some customer's experiences we've seen in the grooming salon. Without proper introduction and sometimes just by the dog's personal anxieties, grooming can be a very stressful experience. There are a lot of smells, sounds and stimulation going on in a salon that can be overwhelming plus the behavior required of a dog that's being groomed. My advice would be to associate something good with before, right before, right after and after the grooming salon to help your pup see grooming as a less stressful experience (AKA, dog park before grooming, treats right before he goes in the salon, treats right when you pick him up, and play somewhere that won't dirty him up when you get home). I also agree that since he has peed on the speaker before, he is choosing that spot over and over because it now screams "toilet!"

I have more suggestions on ways to help relieve his stress if you'd choose to try that out. But I do promise that your dog is not displaying revenge, they simply don't have the mental capacity to wrap their heads around a term or concept like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
thanks guys, last two replies actually make sense. We also take him to the grooming saloon every two months and indeed first thing when coming out he pees. It might be a combination of stress and faint smell of pee in that particular place.
Also, I didn't mean my dog is revenging on us, but more that he is responding to an event with the exact behaviour each time.

thanks for the suggestions, we'll definitely work on making the experience of grooming more pleasurable for him.
 

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I agree with the anxiety explanation. I don't believe a dogs brain is capable of cause and effect reasoning.
 

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I also agree with the anxiety being the root cause. Have you tried grooming him yourself? I know this can be very time consuming and difficult in the beginning, but that way you can give him lots of love and reassurance while you doing it and take breaks when he gets too anxious. I had a little Maltese that once got hurt badly at the parlor (even though it was a total accident) She cowered for at least 2 days under the couch and stopped eating if she had to go to the parlor. but since the accident the only way to groom her was if I did it myself. I was the only one she trusted.
Further suggestion. Off course the speaker has now been marked, but have you considered working with this? You know the pee is going to happen. and I agree with you, why punish the dog because grooming is traumatic for him. that is just cruel in my eyes. So why don't you rather prepare for whats coming. cover the speaker that night, put a pee pad down. This will make the whole situation as little of a situation as it can possibly be while you work on his anxiety issues.
 

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I also agree with the anxiety being the root cause. Have you tried grooming him yourself? I know this can be very time consuming and difficult in the beginning, but that way you can give him lots of love and reassurance while you doing it and take breaks when he gets too anxious. I had a little Maltese that once got hurt badly at the parlor (even though it was a total accident) She cowered for at least 2 days under the couch and stopped eating if she had to go to the parlor. but since the accident the only way to groom her was if I did it myself. I was the only one she trusted.
Further suggestion. Off course the speaker has now been marked, but have you considered working with this? You know the pee is going to happen. and I agree with you, why punish the dog because grooming is traumatic for him. that is just cruel in my eyes. So why don't you rather prepare for whats coming. cover the speaker that night, put a pee pad down. This will make the whole situation as little of a situation as it can possibly be while you work on his anxiety issues.
thanks for the advice. Yes, thats what we are doing: putting a pee pad under the speaker and grooming ourselves with lots of threats and slowly into it.

Still the funny part is that for instance I groom him at 7pm, take him out at 11pm when he pees but then, at night, he will still pee on that exact place :)
 

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this might sound a bit strange, but that final speaker spot pee pee is I think his way of chasing his anxiety devil off his shoulder. His "its really over" button. Cos while you guys are still up, in his mind, maybe he thinks you can "grab him again" so when you go to bed he knows its really over no one can grab him, then he is so happy that he makes a piddle. :)
 
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