We are ready to get our first dog - doing due diligence on breed options

It's great to see someone doing research first. I do have a few questions.

Wannabe said:

Oldest kid has allergies

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What is he or she allergic to?

What is your view on trainability? I am guessing, as a first dog, you want something reasonably biddable but the sighthound breeds you mention often have unreliable recall. So, if your wife expects a jogging buddy that she can let off leash, it might be worth a rethink on the IG. They are also a bit fragile I believe, prone to broken bones.

Also, do you want a social butterfly, or something that's more aloof?

What would a typical day look like for you?

Finally, I suggest this to a lot of people in your situation.

For the next month, act like you have an adult dog. Get up an hour earlier than normal, take an hour long walk. Do the same in the evening after work - and do this straight after work; no shopping, gym, socialising. Do this every day, without fail, regardless of the weather.

Be aware of the season, and remind yourself every morning that for several months of the year you will be doing this in the cold and dark.

Also put away what you think a dog will cost for food, insurance, vet bill excesses, toys etc, then add 10% because we always underestimate these things.

That will give you a good insight into some of the commitment you will need to make.

Don't think about what a dog will bring to your family, think about what your family can offer to a dog.

Thanks @JoanneF! Addressing your questions/points in order...

- Oldest kid is allergic to various things; pet dander is one of the milder ones but it's on the list.

- Although I helped my friends train their dogs (one had a registered dog who got shown; that family was very strict) and as mentioned I worked with actual dog trainers, my experience was mainly assisting, observing, and occasionally filling in; I've never had the sole responsibility to train a dog start to "finish". I feel confident I could handle it and teach my wife and kids how to at least be responsible (not reward bad behavior etc.), but I know doing is always different from thinking/saying.

- From going through the greyhound adoption process, my wife and I both got it drilled very firmly into our heads (and we drilled it into the two older kids' heads) never to let greyhounds of any size off leash. Heck, my wife tends to dislike when people let their dogs off leash in general.

- I did read about the IG fragile bone thing...good to know but not sure what to do about it. I don't think our house has any unusual hazards...?

- Social butterfly/aloof preference: I don't think it matters that much. I'd bet in the first few weeks the kids will be real excited and want to spend time around the dog a lot, but if the dog really wants to sit in its crate most of the time, the kids will understand and get used to it. Alternatively, if the dog wants to constantly cuddle or play there will usually be a taker.

- My typical day right now: wake up at 6am, make coffee, answer emails or work on presentations; sometime in there my wife is also getting up, getting dressed, and leaving for work; as kids wake up I direct/help them to get dressed/fed/washed up; then around 8:10 I drop the younger kids off at school (the oldest walks). When I get home at about 8:30 I resume working for a bit, then usually mid-morning I take a break to work out in our basement gym, followed by lunch (really it's breakfast for me) and shower. Then I keep working until 3:30 when I leave to pick up kids. I am home by about 4:15. We hang out for a bit, I cook dinner, wife gets home, we eat around 6pm, then usually there's a walk outside or, in bad weather, a quiet after-dinner activity until we start getting kids ready for bed around 7:30. The younger ones are in bed by 8:30, I do the dishes, hang out with my wife for a bit, then she works out or jogs on the treadmill and I'll write or practice guitar. She's in bed by 10 (usually watching Netflix and doing her nails) and I'm there too, reading, by about 10:30. Lights off around 11. (I guess if anyone wants to stalk me, this is all the info they need!)

- We are blessed to be confident we can handle the expense of a dog.

- I have thought about where I'd fit in 2-3 dog-walks into my typical day, but I'm curious what your take on it is. I'm not too bothered by being out in bad weather. I like your idea though of going through it for a month, I will try that. I think that same idea was in Cynthia Branigan's Greyhound book.

I personally would move up to a Whippet, or perhaps even a Galgo if you happen to find one in rescue. (A handful of US rescues import them, and they occasionally turn up in Greyhound rescues.)

Italian Greyhounds are considered a toy breed. It's not uncommon for a delicately built toy dog to break a bone while doing something completely ordinary, like jumping off a bed or a couch. People also have a tendency to want to pick up and cuddle toy dogs, which puts the dog in danger of being dropped. (It also can create a timid and snappish dog if the dog doesn't enjoy being scooped up.) Finally toy breeds are often targeted by coyotes or larger dogs. Some parts of the US have a serious problem with people acquiring "macho breed" dogs (Malamutes, Akitas, Pit Bulls, Dogo Argentino, etc.) and letting them run loose. Very small dogs are at extra risk of a fatal injury during an encounter with such a dog.

As far as having a puppy, people have already suggested that you get a taste of dog ownership by organizing your day as though you already had one. Puppies are in a category beyond that. Organize your day as though you have a 12 month old baby that has just learned to toddle and wants to get into everything...and every diaper on the face of the planet has mysteriously disappeared. How would you plan your day to ensure the kid gets entertained and socialized while staying safe? How would you stop the kid from leaving skid marks on carpets and furniture? (Remember, no diapers!) Who gets up at night when the kid wakes up wailing? Do you bring the kid back to bed with you or sit up until the kid drifts back to sleep?

It is great that you’re doing your research. So many people find forums like this only once they’ve already got the dog and have inevitably run into problems.

Since you’re looking into sighthounds, how cold is “coldish”? Sighthounds are really thin skinned and don’t have a lot of body fat - think of a cheetah in dog form.

They also have their own specific weight chart, because a sighthound in perfect body condition would be classed as emaciated if it were any other breed. You should be able to see the dog’s ribs in a sighthound.

That means they really feel the cold and keeping weight on them is a finely-tuned balancing act. My lurcher (whippet cross) lost 5kg in a particularly cold winter when I first got her. She also has a sensitive stomach and was (is) prone to diarrhoea.

After a week of trying to keep her fed and controlling her upset tummy (for which the standard veterinary advice is withhold food for 24hrs and then feed boiled rice and chicken), while she was getting thinner and thinner, I phoned the vet and made an appointment. Vet said she was emaciated (hello - that’s why I was there!) and more or less accused me of starving her. She offered Milly half a tin of Chappie, and gave me an evil look as Milly wolfed it down then said she was so thin, she offered her the rest of the tin. Milly refused the 2nd half (having just been fed before we left).

Since then, every winter, Milly’s had a coat on, especially at night when I turned the heating off but still her weight fluctuates from 18kg to 20kg.

You say your eldest child has a “mild” dander allergy. Every dog sheds dander. What symptoms does the child have? You can control it with air purifiers and allergy tablets, but living with allergies isn’t exactly pleasant.

You say you’ve had observer experience in training. The problem with that is, as good trainers will tell you, they train the humans as much as, if not more than, the dog. What kind of training or trainer were you observing? What methods were they using? Positive reinforcement (treat/clicker), dominance theory? Positive punishment (e-collars, prong collars, etc)?

The reason I ask is because sighthounds are really, really sensitive souls and they don’t respond well to harsh handling methods. If any breed or breeds of dog can hold a grudge, it’s the sighthound breeds. And if Milly’s any indication, they have a “what’s in it for me?” attitude to training.

That said, they are total sweethearts. Their “fuse” is about a mile long. The one and only time I ever feared Milly would bite me was when the vet (a different one) gave me an alcohol-based cream to put on a wide open flesh wound - yeah, I would have knocked someone to the ground if someone did that to me, too. I phoned the vet back and told them I couldn’t keep applying it. Vet said I must. I changed vet. New vet took one look at her wound (about the size of my hand) and said “yeah. You can’t put that cream on that wound.”

Also remember that sighthounds are bred to hunt and chase. Their prey drive is high. They can off and away after a squirrel/cat/rabbit before you even know it’s there. Milly reminded me of that about a month ago. She saw a cat and had pulled the leash out of my hand, sprinted out of the garden and across the road before I had even closed the door. By the time I caught up with her, she was sizing up the fence the cat had escaped over, wondering if she could scale it.

She’s 12-13 years old.

Must go, so I’ll leave you with this pic. Here is Milly with my own cat, Kaylus just before Christmas, wondering why I was up at 2:30am (family emergency).

Someone I knew had moderate allergies to animals and moderate asthma. He was able to keep a series of greyhounds by paying extra care to cleanliness and total allergen exposure. He had to be more careful during the times of year when he was being exposed to pollen as well as the dog. The hound went into the shower weekly for a thorough scrubbing to remove loose hair and dander. His partner handled many household chores that might kick up a lot of allergens, such as changing the bed sheets. He also hired a cleaning service to vacuum the house with a HEPA filter and to dust the house with a damp cloth. He usually tried to stay out of the house while the cleaning service was there, again, to avoid exposure to any allergens they might kick up.

Low shedding breeds such as poodles, schnauzers, Maltese, etc. are commonly recommended for allergy sufferers. The fact that the dogs don't shed certainly does help a lot of people. However, I think the fact that these breeds require a lot of grooming also helps. A properly maintained poodle, cocker spaniel, etc. needs daily brushing and a full bath & blow dry every few weeks. Some allergy sufferers bathe the dog weekly to keep the allergens under control. Even a low shedding dog can collect pollen in the coat, and regular bathing reduces this allergen buildup.

Wow, a lot to respond to! I'll try and take things in order. If I don't respond to something you said, it's because either I already knew it (I read Cynthia Branigan's "Adopting The Racing Greyhound" so for the sake of discussion let's say I retained most of what was in it) or decided it's not relevant.

JoanneF said:

In the UK we have breed specific rescue groups. Is that a thing in the US?

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It certainly is for Greyhounds, probably other breeds too.

elvisdog said:

I guess I'm trying to say you're not picking a toy from a catalogue.

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Yes, I definitely understand this. One of the best examples is the huge variety of Pomeranians I've met, ranging from annoying and yippy to attentive and obedient (usually correlated with how much the dog was treated like a dog rather than a baby!).

LMMB said:

how cold is “coldish”? Sighthounds are really thin skinned and don’t have a lot of body fat - think of a cheetah in dog form.

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Hah, I've always thought of greyhounds as the canine equivalent of cheetahs too. In Central Ohio the winters used to be colder but this year we probably had snow on the ground for less than 2-3 noncontiguous weeks total, even with more than a few >50˚-60˚ days sprinkled throughout November and February. Regardless, if I was taking a sighthound outside on a cold day I'd have it in a doggy-parka and doggy-boots. (Buying these accessories is one of the things my wife is actually excited about.)

LMMB said:

Every dog sheds dander. What symptoms does the child have? You can control it with air purifiers and allergy tablets, but living with allergies isn’t exactly pleasant.

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This is a tricky question. According to the allergy tests she had a moderate-to-strong response, but two of her closest friends have dogs and cats, and live in houses that are fairly clean but not obsessively clean. (I'd say our house is much cleaner than one of them, slightly less clean than the other.) After playing at their houses all day or sleeping over, my daughter comes home without any noticeable symptoms. I think once she said her eyes were itching so we gave her some Zyrtek and that was the end of it.

My best friend grew up always with a dog and multiple cats, despite having pretty severe allergies. He took Claritin a lot, but I think he (and his family) still considered it worthwhile; they've never been without at least 2-3 furry household members.

This is an important point because I think we have to decide what is valuable to us. This one with the allergies is probably the most passionate about getting a dog out of any of my kids.

LMMB said:

What kind of training or trainer were you observing? What methods were they using?

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Always positive-reinforcement-only. And, this whole idea of "dog training is really about training yourself" is something I got from them.

I've never met a professional trainer, or anyone who was training a dog, who advocated negative reinforcement, asserting dominance, etc. That's something I only ever saw on that Cesar Milan show (or whatever his name is). Actually one of the Hollywood dog trainers I worked with told me Cesar had a small hidden device kind of like a taser that he kept out of view of the camera that he would shock the dogs with. (Reality TV is anything but, which I could talk more about, but I digress.)

kdmtrending said:

Some breeds you might consider are the Whippet, Vizsla, Brittany, Beagle, or a smaller version of a Labrador Retriever.

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Aren't Beagles and Labs double-coated?

kdmtrending said:

It's also a good idea to consider adopting from a local shelter or rescue organization. They often have a variety of breeds and mixes available, and staff can provide information about the individual dog's temperament and any special needs they may have.

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Oh, definitely. I'd much rather adopt from a shelter/rescue if I could. For one thing they're more affordable and don't make you jump through hoops the way e.g. the greyhound rescue folks do (though I understand why they do it). If my wife was okay with a pit or pit mix we could walk into any of those shelters and be able to choose from dozens of them. But in my experience they have very few other breeds. Worst of all, they typically know very little about the dogs and I've even discovered some of them will lie to get a dog out the door. So I'm a little leery of them now. But it's still the first place I'd look, for convenience reasons if nothing else.

Thanks for all these great answers so far, everyone!

I grew up with an IG...

Like you mention, they can be difficult to house train. Our IG was trained both to go outside and to go in a 'potty box' lined with newspaper, which she could use if she was home alone or it was the middle of the night (and, with her small bladder, she had to get up most nights to pee). She always hated getting her feet wet though, which could happen in the potty box, and in her whole 14 years she could never really resist the temptation to just pee on the bathmat...

The Midwest cold is definitely a consideration--we lived on the Oregon coast, so it was never very hot or very cold out, but our Iggy was easily cold and had to wear a sweater outside, and even inside, much of the year. She always slept under a blanket. But if your wife is excited about a doggy wardrobe, then the IG is a good breed! I'm sure there are plenty of Iggies who do fine in real cold with booties and a coat.

Though your children are gentle with dogs, the fragility of IGs is still a potential worry. Our IG broke her leg when she was still a puppy. I was holding her (I was 10) and she jumped out of my arms, and snap. I should have been holding her more securely, as I had been taught, but well, I was just a kid.

On the other hand, she was most athletic in her youth and used to jog with my dad several times a week. But IGs, like greyhounds, are real couch potatoes and don't necessarily need tons of exercise.

Our IG went off leash on the beach and in the woods and we never had a problem with her taking off-- but like all sighthounds they're not necessarily good off leash dogs due to their high prey drive, and I wouldn't dream of letting an IG off leash in a city environment or around cars.

In my opinion they're a pretty good breed for first-time owners. They're pretty easy going dogs, and they're so small that they can't really become unmanagable.