Dog Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have just got a new dog, Basil. He's supposed to be 18 months old. I got him from the "dog orphanage" so I don't know his history. He seems very "puppyish" and doesn't seem to have had any training.

I started him at the local dog club's training last weekend.

When my girl (13 years) was young, she went to dog club. When she went, the club didn't use food in training, it was all just verbal praise and patting after putting your dog into the position you wanted - after a while they'd do it on their own. Now they've changed and they are using food. The lady kind of waved the bit of food at the dog's nose and manipulated the dog into the desired position (used it as a lure, according to the sticky at the top of this sub-forum).

Ok, so I bought some treats and gave it a go with Basil today. He sees the food and he doesn't get manipulated into anything like a sit. He turns into a whirling dervish, leaping into the air and doing flips and trying to get at the food. I physically put him into position and used the treat as a reward, but after a couple of goes I gave up and came inside.

There won't be a class next weekend because they've got a competition on.

Should I keep trying with the whirling dervish? Just put him in position and reward?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Using a lure for a behavior it's important to have your position correct too. If you are asking for a sit, your lure should be held at the nose and then raised slightly above the eyes. Too high = jumping for it. Too low = slobbery fingers. :p You want the dogs head to follow your lure so that he has to plant his bum on the floor to maintain balance. Even if he is going bonkers hold your position and see if he can center himself on his own. If he doesn't figure it out with in a minute end the training and try again later.

You can also video yourself so you can watch it later to see what he sees and see how to adjust your position and movements.

Think about how high and back you can look up before you have to take a step back to stay upright.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
I have just got a new dog, Basil. He's supposed to be 18 months old. I got him from the "dog orphanage" so I don't know his history. He seems very "puppyish" and doesn't seem to have had any training.

I started him at the local dog club's training last weekend.

When my girl (13 years) was young, she went to dog club. When she went, the club didn't use food in training, it was all just verbal praise and patting after putting your dog into the position you wanted - after a while they'd do it on their own. Now they've changed and they are using food. The lady kind of waved the bit of food at the dog's nose and manipulated the dog into the desired position (used it as a lure, according to the sticky at the top of this sub-forum).

Ok, so I bought some treats and gave it a go with Basil today. He sees the food and he doesn't get manipulated into anything like a sit. He turns into a whirling dervish, leaping into the air and doing flips and trying to get at the food. I physically put him into position and used the treat as a reward, but after a couple of goes I gave up and came inside.

There won't be a class next weekend because they've got a competition on.

Should I keep trying with the whirling dervish? Just put him in position and reward?
If your dog is going spastic from the presence of a food treat in your hand, I watched a video that showed a good method for training this behavior away.

Get the treat, make sure your dog knows you have it, and enclose it in your fist. Then just hang your fist where your dog can get to it. Expect a liberal dose of doggie-exuberance. For awhile, even up to several minutes, your dog may nibble, sniff, and push at your hand. Just wait calmly. Don't make eye contact or pay direct attention. Once your dog stops for a few seconds, open your hand and give the treat. A clicker is also helpful for this training. Repeat this process, requiring a slightly longer calm time for each treat. If at first your dog stops but stares intently at your hand, wait until they look away and then treat them. It's ideal if they sit down and look away from your hand. If they look into your eyes - jackpot. You're training your dog that, if they calmly look to you, they'll get a treat. If they spaz out, no treat.

I'd strongly suggest not forcing your dog into a sitting position. This has at least two dangers. You could accidentally injure their hip or back, and they could view a sitting position as unpleasant. In order to train a sit, you can follow the advice posted earlier about positioning - this works really well. Hold the treat at the right angle, and gently push it towards your dog, and they generally sit quickly. DO NOT try to push your dog into a sitting position with the treat if they don't automatically assume the position. This can easily cause injury to their neck and will upset them.

No matter what you're trying to train your dog to do, certain things are constants. Training when the dog is really excited, after they just wake up, or when there are too many distractions is not wise. Walking your hyper dog prior to training, or playing with them awhile if they're not leash-trained, will help a lot. Don't try to train your dog with treats after they've just eaten. A treat only has value if your dog likes it, and if they want it right then. Don't expect consistent or progressive training sessions from day to day. Dogs, just like people, have off days. If one of my dogs isn't doing too well on a given day, I love on them just the same. If they aren't stressed out by their training, you and they will have a much better time. My dogs are ecstatic about training time. If I get the treats out, all their butts hit the floor.

What I've also done to teach a sit is to get my treats, and stand next to my dog. If they're already sitting, I give them a treat (and click if you have a clicker). If they get up and run around, I stand and wait until they decide to sit by me again. This can take several minutes - don't lose patience. Then I treat them again. I treat them if they hold the position. I repeat this process while I'm sitting, and then with another person in the room, and then other dogs. VERY IMPORTANT!!! The introduction of distractions, such as other people, dogs, excited greeting, etc., should be very gradual. If your dog starts to lose the behavior due to distractions, move to a more simple environment by removing them and start again.

I see above a post for Kikopup's Youtube channel. I can't recommend those videos highly enough. Kikopup generously makes free training videos available that use nothing but positive reinforcement. Watch as many of these as you can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,032 Posts
You can also use less exciting food, like carrot pieces ;)
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Great, thanks everyone.

Train him not to go nutso when the treats are there FIRST. We'll work on that today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks, at training they said to use fresh food so that they can gobble it quickly. I'll switch to kibble, otherwise I'm afraid he'll get sick from all the rich food.

We gave it a go this morning and he was better at it. He'll need plenty of reinforcement to "get it".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,635 Posts
lol it'll just take some time, once he understands that his behavior is earning the reward, and it isn't "random goodies" he'll catch on ;)

for some dogs, like mine, they need higher value foods for treats, especially when there are lots of distractions, but if your dog is highly food motivated, then the food itself becomes a distraction. you might need the other treats for his classes still though, so i'd bring them and kibble with you :)



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
once he understands that his behavior is earning the reward, and it isn't "random goodies" he'll catch on ;)
He seems to understand that because he'll do what is required, but he seems to have the attention span of a gnat because he'll forget the next time you try it and he'll revert to leaping up. He'll learn, it'll just take a lot of going over and over (not like that little smartypants in the kikopup video :D)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Thanks, at training they said to use fresh food so that they can gobble it quickly. I'll switch to kibble, otherwise I'm afraid he'll get sick from all the rich food.

We gave it a go this morning and he was better at it. He'll need plenty of reinforcement to "get it".
His usual kibble might not be a reward of high enough value but you're right, you don't want to overload on rich food. What I did while training Leo - put kibble in a zippy bag with a bit of shredded cheese and a small quantity of hot dog bits and shacked/mushed everything together to "flavour" the kibble.
Worked nicely ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yes, I think I'll do up a mixture of things. These little meatball treats that I bought him seem pretty rich. They are only little but I cut them up smaller. I'm going to cut them up smaller again. I might also buy a bag of puppy kibble. The kibble they are eating at the moment has different sized bits, but they are not super-small. I'll see if I can get some really small kibble.

He's a tiny little dog, much smaller than my other dog. It's all very well for the other big dogs in class. Their little bits of sausage won't make a dent in their stomachs. My little mouse will be stuffed to the gills if he gets sausage after every feat.

Basil seems very motivated by attention. The Kikopup thing of completely ignoring what you don't like and giving him attention when he's calm and settled has worked miracles, just yesterday. I was (without realizing it, I can't help myself) reinforcing his jumping up. To get his head near me for a pat when I'm sitting, he has to put his paws up on the chair. I was patting him..... (what do you do when you see a cute dog? pat it.) I've started ignoring him when he puts his paws up and waiting for him to go back to the ground (I've got timber floors so I can hear his little feet going back down). If I look at him and wait a little bit more, he'll go into a sit and then he gets the praise. He has a bit of trouble staying sitting when the hand goes down for a pat, his reaction is to leap up, but he can stay down some of the time to get his pat. He's got the idea that he needs to do what I want so he'll learn. Woohoo! My little savage is going to end up civilized!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,635 Posts
His usual kibble might not be a reward of high enough value but you're right, you don't want to overload on rich food. What I did while training Leo - put kibble in a zippy bag with a bit of shredded cheese and a small quantity of hot dog bits and shacked/mushed everything together to "flavour" the kibble.
Worked nicely ;)
the OP is posting about a dog that gets overly excited about food, so using a lower value of food is appropriate in this situation ;)
Yes, I think I'll do up a mixture of things. These little meatball treats that I bought him seem pretty rich. They are only little but I cut them up smaller. I'm going to cut them up smaller again. I might also buy a bag of puppy kibble. The kibble they are eating at the moment has different sized bits, but they are not super-small. I'll see if I can get some really small kibble.

He's a tiny little dog, much smaller than my other dog. It's all very well for the other big dogs in class. Their little bits of sausage won't make a dent in their stomachs. My little mouse will be stuffed to the gills if he gets sausage after every feat.

Basil seems very motivated by attention. The Kikopup thing of completely ignoring what you don't like and giving him attention when he's calm and settled has worked miracles, just yesterday. I was (without realizing it, I can't help myself) reinforcing his jumping up. To get his head near me for a pat when I'm sitting, he has to put his paws up on the chair. I was patting him..... (what do you do when you see a cute dog? pat it.) I've started ignoring him when he puts his paws up and waiting for him to go back to the ground (I've got timber floors so I can hear his little feet going back down). If I look at him and wait a little bit more, he'll go into a sit and then he gets the praise. He has a bit of trouble staying sitting when the hand goes down for a pat, his reaction is to leap up, but he can stay down some of the time to get his pat. He's got the idea that he needs to do what I want so he'll learn. Woohoo! My little savage is going to end up civilized!

lol, good job! there are different brands of dog foods that make the kibble in smaller bits for smaller dogs, i'm not sure which though, i feed TOTW kibble, and it is kinda large, though not huge...



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
the OP is posting about a dog that gets overly excited about food, so using a lower value of food is appropriate in this situation ;)
He accepted the kibble without a quibble. My other dog was not impressed though, I think she liked the special meatballs :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
620 Posts
the OP is posting about a dog that gets overly excited about food, so using a lower value of food is appropriate in this situation ;)
Hmm...perhaps it's just me, but I like spastic-ness. Excitement can enhance learning as emotion magnifies memory, both in humans and dogs. Dial it back enough to where the dog can actually think, but keep a lot of that energy and eagerness and I WANT THAT REWARD NOW GIVE IT TO ME NOW RIGHT NOW I MEAN I WANT IT NOW DON'T YOU SEE ME SITTING, STUPID, GIVE IT NOW!!!!111!! type of thing. It worked wonders for him and I for shaping.

But Wally's kind of weird and I think it's rubbed off on me :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
620 Posts
He accepted the kibble without a quibble. My other dog was not impressed though, I think she liked the special meatballs :D
How about giving the meatballer a dry treat that's better than kibble (more scent/flavor) but not quite as high as meatballs? Sort of step it down to where she can still be like "oh that's worth it" but not too much "OMG OMG OMG OMG ZOMG ZOMG OMG" :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,635 Posts
lol, kibble w/o quibble... ;) you can always increase the value of the reward as needed, so maybe once he gets better at the training games, you can use something really fantastic for more important/difficult behaviors like recall :)



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
the OP is posting about a dog that gets overly excited about food, so using a lower value of food is appropriate in this situation ;)



lol, good job! there are different brands of dog foods that make the kibble in smaller bits for smaller dogs, i'm not sure which though, i feed TOTW kibble, and it is kinda large, though not huge...
Oops - sorry; I should have paid better attention :eek:. I forgot about the initial post...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
247 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
How about giving the meatballer a dry treat that's better than kibble (more scent/flavor) but not quite as high as meatballs? Sort of step it down to where she can still be like "oh that's worth it" but not too much "OMG OMG OMG OMG ZOMG ZOMG OMG" :D
Oh, she isn't getting rewarded for training, she's just getting fed treats :D She'll just take what she's given, but she turned her nose up at her normal food, it wasn't "treat-y" enough for the princess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
743 Posts
I'll toss mine a treat when they are good, but not every time. I don't want them to know when they are being good lol.

I will also admit to using a prong, but the dog was a Dane lab mix that outweighed me by 50lbs, he never was a puller, but I had him wear it for safety reasons.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top