[Incitatus32]

Hi I'm new and I've also posted a question about seizures in labs so if you feel you can answer that as well or provide input please go check it out!

Anyway, I have two dogs who are going to be the death of me. In all my years of dogs, and any other animal they are by far the hardest to train I've ever had....

Dog #1: A golden lab (golden meaning color, not breed lol) who's just a sweetheart. Doesn't know a stranger, will jump into any car that stops with a door open. He also, can slip out of ANY collar. I've tried regular ones, 'inescapable' ones (got $50 back from the company because he escaped same day they put it on), even harnesses, harnesses rigged to collars, and even choker chains (even though I'm loathsome to use one unless I'm pressed). The chokers been the life saver of his quite literally. His main problem aside from this is pulling on his walker. I've done everything from directing his attention, standing still and letting him figure it out, even getting a little physical by forcefully making him stop, react to me and then move on; heck right now it's gotten to the point where I've let him pull himself off of his feet by lunging ahead hoping and praying it gets through his skull... he retains nothing. The same goes for staying, lying down, heeling, and coming. In fact the only things he's mastered is, sit, give me five, shake, and eat/sleep. Any ideas on how to deal with him? He's honestly a candidate for 'most stupid dog in the world'.

Dog #2: A german shepard/cattle dog mix who to put it short is an a$%. But he's smart, and quick. He heels (for me), only pulls occasionally but reacts when I want him to, sits, stays, comes, and other things but only for me. As I'm laid up right now his personality makes it really hard for him to go for walks because no one wants to take him. My main complaint with him is that when he's off the leash, he's gone. I don't exist... well, I do, but he's too much of a butt and hyper dog to pay any mind to me. Any tips on this? I don't have a fenced in yard (they go out on a rope under supervision to sway anyone's fears). He also has a habit of grabbing things I didn't even know we had in the house and running around with them until someone can catch him and corral him. I think we've got that sorted out but any advice would be good. Also, just as a question: my mom recently remarked to me that whenever anyone smacks him (as a punishment) that he turns around and 'sasses' them by first barking and tensing, and then if they do it again snapping (but the opposite direction from their hand so more like a warning). The only time I've smacked him has been when he went after my cats and grabbed one with malicious intent and another when he decided to try and assert his authority by snapping at me (which for personal reasons is a severe no and brings my wrath down); I only gave him a light smack on the behind and it was the moment it occurred and even now on the rare occasion when I do have to give him a smack he doesn't snap at me or anything like my mom was describing. Is that the nature of the german Shepard in him? He's not people or food aggressive either, it's just if they smack him (or in the case of males go after him with the intent or air of hurting him) he snaps at them. Just curious on that one. I've been told by my grandmother that he acts just like her german shepards used to but has 10X the sass (which I'm betting is the cattle dog in him....)

Any how, any advice or input is more than welcome as I'm at my limit of knowledge in dogs here. Oh! And just to clarify, they both are neutered and healthy. Thanks in advance!

 

[Kwenami]

Dog 1: What about martingale collars? Maybe you need to look at his size again and make sure you're careful about the fur not changing what you think it is. I find a halter (gentle leader) works best for me and my dog, and is much better than a choke collar. There are other options out there. How focused is he when you're working on stuff? How consistent are you? How are you teaching these issues? It sounds like both of you could benefit from a basic obedience class that teaches with positive reinforcement to encourage behavior.

Dog 2: You need to work on recalls with a long line, and better treats. He's know what you want but you need to make it ALWAYS a good thing to come back to you. I would also work on a better drop it, and leave it.

It's not really beneficial to anyone to smack the dog as a punishment. It doesn't really work, as you're seeing, and is the nature of most dogs-and people! How would you like being smacked when yo do something wrong? Better yet-how would you like being smacked for NOT doing anything wrong? To him these behaviors are normal and he simply doesn't understand what you're trying to get at. You need to think of a new way to teach him so that he's not scared to work with you.

 

[kmes]

^Ditto!

Honestly it sounds like you have pretty normal dogs...
Sounds to me that they need training and perhaps you may need to learn a bit more about how to train dogs in general.

For dog #1:
A properly fitted martingale should solve the problem. If fitted properly there shouldn't be any way to slip it.

And for teaching Loose Leash Walking read this thread and watch the videos. What you need to do is focus on teaching your dog what you do want to him do (reward for walking beside you) and then work on practicing around distractions.
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/loose-leash-walking-1683/
Also take a look at this thread for additional videos.
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/helpful-training-videos-articles-11426/

For dog #2:
First no one should be smacking him as punishment. Aggression begets aggression. It's very likely to escalate to a bite and then your poor dog is probably going to pay the price.

Like your lab, this dog simply requires training. The second link I gave you (above) should have a bunch of helpful videos. These links and videos (below) should also help get you started.
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/recall-9595/

Really you may find hiring a trainer very helpful! Look for someone who uses primarily positive reinforcement/reward based training. These are great sites for finding qualified professionals. Hopefully they help!
Search for Professionals
Dog Trainer Search

 

[Incitatus32]

Thanks I appreciate the links and advice! I've actually been through 2 puppy classes and one private trainer and both people were at a loss for Dog 1 he would do fine and then suddenly, forget everything and treats are no motivation for him. People petting him are... he's lovable, friendly, but I'm beginning to suspect he has a nut for a brain. As for the smacking of dog 2, I think I'm going to have a talk with my family about that to be sure we're on the same page and the poor guy doesn't get mixed signals. He's getting better with the cats and not chasing/catching them (due to an unfortunate incident one day with a tired, grumpy cat and his poor face and leg) so hopefully it'll be easier to not smack him. Thanks for the advice I really appreciate it! These dogs are making me sound like a horrible person/owner......

 

[raffles]

You don't sound like a horrible person at all (and it's so easy to get to the end of your patience), on the contrary, one that's prepared to listen to other methods. Like you, my first three dogs were very hit & miss regarding training, as we didn't have the internet then. This forum and the people on it are a terrific source of information! Good luck

 

[Bordercollie]

Incitatus, Don't feel bad, I feel your pain. Especially with the cats. My 11 month old BC has an unholy obsession with our 4 cats. One cat just ignores the dog, but the others flee. I have lost my patience once or twice and smacked her. Rolled up feed bags make these nice scary rustling noise...

 

[Incitatus32]

I'm so glad I'm not a horrible owner (contrary to what my animals say)! Thank goodness the lab at least recognizes 'No', but the other one.... oh wow is he ever a candidate for the 'not afraid and full of sass' category. I actually just had a dog behavioral/trainer over (not to do an eval or anything, just came by to visit and see a neighbors dog) and the poor guy in five minuets looked about ready to strangle my dog. I left them alone for five minuets and the german shepard pulled the guys socks off of his feet (very gently I was told, so stealthy in fact, that the man failed to notice they were off until the dog barked at him) and was rampaging around the house flipping them around to hit his head. Good thing is, he brought them to us quickly..... but then decided that the hot sauce bottle on the stove was glorious and, well, I'm still waiting for the aftermath of this one.

Some days I wish he'd realize how good he's got it for a dog. Forget taking people to the pound to make them see first hand what happens and reflect, let my dog go and see!

 

[TMsam]

Sound like quite reasonable normal dos to me, lol..
I was a certified trainer in a past life(not in a method I use these days though unfortunately) & have several dogs with no recall abilities what so ever & likely they never will being TMs. I mean they come when called most times but if they think there is a reason not to they won't i.e. a rabbit to chase, a fight to break up, a sheep birthing etc etc...
Smacking dogs will get you nowhere fast, I will reprimand a fully mature trained dog with a verbal growly NO but even thats of no benefit to an untrained youngster & likely only confuse them if anything.
I prefer to redirect & condition a dog these days to hard lining them with negative responses as I see more use in the long run with these methods where as the more negative methods just covered up the real issue behind the behaviour most times. Therefor as soon as my back was turned long enough or they went on to a different handler the issues would re arise.

Good luck with your dogs they sound like normal pooches to me.