[Acey]

Yes it works in all situations. Not because it's magic or special. But because it is a LAW of learning! All quadrants will work that is their purpose.
The reason we use PR above all others is because it is the most efficient and safest way to teach a dog absolutely anything... whether that is tricks or confidence building etc.
I could teach my dog everything using PP but he would be a nervous wreck who hates life at the end of it... I don't want that lol.
PR works all the time because if an animal has a functioning brain it can't NOT learn lol

 

[TiggerBounce]

My reason for the question is because I was wondering if everyone thinks that treat training or any type of training for that matter works in ALL situations, just out of curiosity.

Ok now I feel like you're just duping us lol. April fools?

Was that really the ONLY "extreme" situation you had in mind that invalidates the notion that PR training can work in "ALL" situations? When I said it can work on all dogs for all situations if you know what you're doing, I wasn't meaning to include mentally or emotionally damaged dogs lol

 

[patronizingrabbits]

I'm not implying that...i just asked a question. And resorting to name calling doesn't help or solve anything, it only shows your character, or lack of.

Trying to make me look like the bad guy doesn't change the fact that you are continuing to argue about something you refuse to educate yourself about.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[kelly528]

My reason for the question is because I was wondering if everyone thinks that treat training or any type of training for that matter works in ALL situations, just out of curiosity.

We are telling you that positive reinforcement (any type of reward) works in all situations. Except, as most would agree, in the case of something like snake aversion training where any fallout towards the snake is desired anyways.

 

[Laurelin]

I do think sometimes because of practical limitations using punishment may work faster for a specific problem. Particularly with safety issues and a supremely self reinforcing behavior in the dog. But I think that is more of a human limitation than anything.

I also think there's a big difference between above and them basing a training method on punishment.

 

[TiggerBounce]

We are telling you that positive reinforcement (any type of reward) works in all situations. Except, as most would agree, in the case of something like snake aversion training where any fallout towards the snake is desired anyways.

Actually trainers are doing rattlesnake aversion training with PR now too! The problems with punishments still apply when using a shock collar for that purpose. If you can train a dog to avoid a rattlesnake using PR, and ingrain in the dog that leaving a rattlesnake alone is the most reinforcing thing ever, you're much better off.

 

[kelly528]

Now… negative reinforcement on the other hand over and over and over again and if the drive of the animal to do the undesired behaviour is strong enough, repeated positive punishment will result in 'callousness' to the punishment.

For example... I knew of someone on another forum (recently) who also owned an Alapaha Blue-Blooded Bulldog (a very rare breed, I'm told, there are less than 1000 worldwide), and was skeptical of positive training despite the time and effort members extended them to answer all of their questions, repeatedly. The same aversives (arguments from positive trainers) were posted over and over and over again, but this particular poster only seemed to grow callous to the counterarguments, until they grew so strong that the person in question (and a few of the more blunt members arguing against them) were banned.

Yet somehow I never quite got the feeling that this positive punishment (the argument and ultimately the banning) was really ever effective onder:

Aaand because of this, I'm just going to stop wasting my time posting in this thread.

 

[kmes]

It seems like you think that treat training is the "cure all" magic training trick. Do you think that there are dogs who are too dangerous and too much of a liability to be rehabbed? I'm just asking this question out of curiosity.

No one is saying that "treat training" is a magic cure all...

Pretty much ditto TB.+R based methods (and like the others I do not limit myself to food rewards though I do use them frequently as food is a primary reinforcer AND food rewards allow for many quick repetitions) require time, consistency, and work. Hardly a magic fix.

I have yet to work with a dog who did not respond well to +R based methods (after all the laws of learning are universal! Breed and even species doesn't matter! If a dog has a functioning brain with the ability to learn learning theory applies) That would include my own dogs past (pug and boxer/mastiff type mix) and present (doberman, min pin, 2 pekingese, terrier/poodle type mix), clients (pretty wide variety of dogs including some "tough" breeds like dogos, gsd's, a mal, etc.), and dogs at the shelter (again a wide variety of breeds and mixes). If I take a step back to assess when I do have difficulty, the problem is typically a handler/training error on my part.

All of that said, sure there are dogs out there who are too dangerous or too much of a liability to be rehabbed. Personally I think most dogs can be helped but not all should or can be regardless of the method used...
Are you familiar with Ian Dunbar's bite scale?
https://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian%20Dunbar%20Dog%20Bite%20Scale.pdf
I tend to agree with it.

And last but not least, just some food for thought on the use of aversive methods for aggression cases.
Nicole Wilde's take (she is a certified pet dog trainer and certified behavior consultant. She has a lot of experience with wolves/wolf dogs and shelter dogs)
Do Some Dogs Need a Heavier Hand? | Wilde About Dogs
And a survey/study with stats basically showing that aversive training methods carry a higher risk for an aggressive response from a dog than positive reinforcement based methods.
https://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf

 

[ZoesMom]

I honestly do not see the point in continuing to argue with the OP because she doesn't have the proper understanding of PR/NP and until she educates herself and reads the posts that I linked this thread will be closed. Everyone already posted really good information and I don't see the point in beating a dead horse.

OP read the links and learn what PR really is. After you have done so and have a better understanding you can PM me and I will reopen this.