[fawkese1]

Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.

that isn't really how training with treats work. you aren't/shouldn't be using them as bribes, you use them as reinforcement the difference is HUGE. what do you put your trust in, when dealing with an aggressive dog? i mean, exactly what do you resort to, and how does it work?

I am comfortable and confident in knowing that If my dog becomes fixated on something, that the sound of my voice is enough to snap her out of it, instead of hoping that I have one last treat in my fanny pack. I don't "wait" for her to make a mistake, but if she does, I correct her with a "no" and a SLIGHT leash tug and a "sit" or "down" position. Once she follows my command she may be rewarded with a pet or a "good girl" or a treat. I don't give her a treat for EVERYTHING that she does right because dogs generally love to please us, and you're dog knows when you're pleased/happy without giving treats. But I do use treat training exclusively when first building a relationship with a dog. I like to know that my dog is in tune with ME...not a treat.

dogs do not love to please us, that is one of the biggest myths regarding dog behavior out there. dogs appear to want to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor (no they don't plan it this way, we humans perceive it this way) again, if you are worried that the dog is in tune with the treat, you aren't using them properly.

 

[fawkese1]

Treat rewards arefine but sense all dogs are different they may not work for every circumstance. In crowded areas with a lot of dogs my Rott ignores the highest value treats and even my independent,bull headed and high prey drive Malamute/gsd mix would look to my ques much better at those times. You have to really work for his focus and keep on your toes. I now avoid those places because he is too confrontational and high strung,even if I can keep him obedient during the first 20 minutes it goes down from there. Although most Rotts are lower key than he is so may not make the best example.

Scolding isn't necessary but interrupting bad behavior can be if it's self rewarding enough.

THIS!!! exactly! if your dog is too aroused to take a treat, that is a sign that you are putting him in a situation that is beyond his skills to handle training wise. it has nothing to do with the value of the treat, the stubborness/drive of the dog and more to do with his level of training. clearly you've figured that out

also, fwiw, treats are not the definition of positive reinforcement/non-punishment training. there is so much more nuance to it than that. there are far more options in training than treat/punishment...

 

[fawkese1]

I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.

if your dog is in a "red zone state" and you believe that punishing it is the best approach, i'd be pleading with you to MANAGE the dog for safety purposes and then to seek out a qualified professional.

advocating against the use of punishments for training is NOT a sign that you are deluded, or confused about the dog world. it also doesn't mean that you lack consistency or allow your dogs to walk all over you. i own a rottie mix myself and have done A LOT of rehabilitation with him, without the use of punishments (though i will admit that sadly, and ashamedly i have failed him in moments of frustration) and i KNOW how and when to properly apply punishment. i know how to use aversive training tools, and have used them in the past. and since i've used them, i've chosen to educate myself further and now i know better, more effective ways of training, as well as why they work.

 

[fawkese1]

I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.

it is not the same thing. and my dog obeys me just fine without treats. AND i don't have to punish him for that to happen.

people walk around with bags of treats because training is continuous throughout the dog's life (or it should be) it doesn't mean that they MUST use the treats in all situations.

 

[fawkese1]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "punish"? And it does seem that treats are some peoples life lines...

you keep using the words "some people" sure, some people bribe their dogs, some people shout at them, some people are violent to them etc... that doesn't make it the norm for the training method/philosophy... if i'm out in the woods, walking my dogs (which i do quite often) there is a good chance i won't have treats on hand since i often grab my boys and just go. in other situations where we are out and about, i will likely have treats on hand, but not always... my boys are both in need of training for certain situations. i definitely use treats then. i also use other things as rewards for them all the time... i try to use what they value most in that situation, as a reward for doing what i want them to do... sometimes that is food, sometimes a toy, sometimes it is being allowed to mark on a walk, sometimes it is being allowed to sniff etc... i don't HAVE to always use treats, but most of the time they are a really effective way to convey information to my dogs.

these would be considered punishments:

I correct her with a "no"

and this can be (or it can just be annoying):

a SLIGHT leash tug

but that depends on the dog...

 

[fawkese1]

Punishment is whatever the dog doesn't like and takes as aversive/intimidating. In example my dog finds raised voices to be very punishing. Even if the voice is not directed at her.

i forgot to say this!!!! and this is funny because i've conditioned clover (took a long time) to raised voices... lmao... i'm loud and i don't want that to upset him all the time! anyway, he doesn't find yelling particularly scary.