[BullyGirl80]

I think that because of CM lots of people confuse assertive training with fear and abuse...they couldn't be more wrong. Unfortunately some people think that if you're not always talking clickers and treats, than you're and abuser, which is also wrong. I use which ever method gets the reaction that I'm looking for with a dog...With my shi tzu treats work great, as with a lot of small dogs, she is slightly timid so there is no need for me to assert myself over her, however with my bulldog I use a more assertive approach because with a dog of her size and strength I have NO room for error. I have to be 100% certain that I am in control of her in public places, and when she is really excited and worked up, she could care less about a treat.

 

[BullyGirl80]

Ehh I dunno… I just took on a waist-height GSD that I could probably ride and he is (and has been) working quite well with treats. 30 minutes into our first walk today he was very in-tune with my cues and looking to me for my say whenever we encountered people, dogs, really noisy trucks, etc. It established a rapport with the dog a lot faster than waiting for him to screw up and then 'dominating' him.

When you involve reward in training, you get a dog that is interested in you and the commands you have to issue 24/7. When you rely only on being 'assertive' you get a dog that begins to think 'The heck with you, I need look out for myself here!'

Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.

 

[BullyGirl80]

I am comfortable and confident in knowing that If my dog becomes fixated on something, that the sound of my voice is enough to snap her out of it, instead of hoping that I have one last treat in my fanny pack. I don't "wait" for her to make a mistake, but if she does, I correct her with a "no" and a SLIGHT leash tug and a "sit" or "down" position. Once she follows my command she may be rewarded with a pet or a "good girl" or a treat. I don't give her a treat for EVERYTHING that she does right because dogs generally love to please us, and you're dog knows when you're pleased/happy without giving treats. But I do use treat training exclusively when first building a relationship with a dog. I like to know that my dog is in tune with ME...not a treat.

 

[BullyGirl80]

And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!

I never said that I use CM'S methods...I said that I'm an assertive trainer when necessary, my training varies by the mental state of the dog.

 

[BullyGirl80]

And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!

I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.

 

[BullyGirl80]

that isn't really how training with treats work. you aren't/shouldn't be using them as bribes, you use them as reinforcement the difference is HUGE. what do you put your trust in, when dealing with an aggressive dog? i mean, exactly what do you resort to, and how does it work?



dogs do not love to please us, that is one of the biggest myths regarding dog behavior out there. dogs appear to want to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor (no they don't plan it this way, we humans perceive it this way) again, if you are worried that the dog is in tune with the treat, you aren't using them properly.

I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.

 

[BullyGirl80]

Well, for one, a new dog owner shouldn't have a dog like that. And if they do, I couldn't, in good conscious, recommend they use aversive tactics or try the stunts that CM pulls. They will get themselves bitten. CM himself has been bitten more times than I care to count. He calls it a part of the process, but it shouldn't be. A dog that insecure shouldn't be provoked to attack or bite so that it can then be totally shut down. That's not a very nice way to treat a dog, especially not one that is frightened out of it's mind. He has made some dogs literally pee themselves by frightening them so much. It's like forcing a child on a rollercoster it's not ready to go on yet. You're going to cause more harm than good.

And again, treats work fine with those cases, IF you know what you are doing. And I feel MUCH more comfortable instructing somebody how to properly counter condition a dog using treats, because they are far less likely to put themselves, the dog, and others in danger. And the long term results will be much more reliable.

Once again, I'm not CM nor do I use all of his methods of training. Why do you keep telling me about CM?

 

[BullyGirl80]

it is not the same thing. and my dog obeys me just fine without treats. AND i don't have to punish him for that to happen.

people walk around with bags of treats because training is continuous throughout the dog's life (or it should be) it doesn't mean that they MUST use the treats in all situations.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "punish"? And it does seem that treats are some peoples life lines...

 

[BullyGirl80]

if your dog is in a "red zone state" and you believe that punishing it is the best approach, i'd be pleading with you to MANAGE the dog for safety purposes and then to seek out a qualified professional.

advocating against the use of punishments for training is NOT a sign that you are deluded, or confused about the dog world. it also doesn't mean that you lack consistency or allow your dogs to walk all over you. i own a rottie mix myself and have done A LOT of rehabilitation with him, without the use of punishments (though i will admit that sadly, and ashamedly i have failed him in moments of frustration) and i KNOW how and when to properly apply punishment. i know how to use aversive training tools, and have used them in the past. and since i've used them, i've chosen to educate myself further and now i know better, more effective ways of training, as well as why they work.

I'm not understanding why you keep saying that I punish my dog???????? I would really like for you to explain to me what you mean by that.

 

[BullyGirl80]

I am curious just what Bully Girl means by assertive.

She asked why CM was brought up and I prrsume it is because it is in her first post and because she has referenced in other threads that she feels his approach is appropriate sometimes.
Posted via Mobile Device

What I mean by assertive is firm and confident. Yes, I do agree with SOME of CM'S methods, but I mentioned him in this thread to say that just because someone is assertive doesn't mean that they should automatically be linked to CM and treated as if they abuse their dogs.

 

[BullyGirl80]

This will be my final comment on this subject because we aren't getting anywhere....what I'm saying is I know that treat training works, I use treat training with my shi tzu, I also use treat training during command training with my bulldog however she is not very "food driven" in certain situations. I don't think that treat training works with ALL dogs in ALL situations. Being assertive does NOT mean that I hit or alpha roll my dog, which I have NEVER done! It means that I can give firm commands and can be confident that my dog will respond without treats, that's all. I do know people who use treats as bribes and have to have them on hand at ALL times to "control" their dogs, so I may have been a tad unfamiliar with some of you alls treat training methods.

 

[BullyGirl80]

Thank you. Of course, that's still a little vague--ie what are your actions that define you being "firm?" Mostly, I'm curious as to why, when we had been recommending PR resources in the thread this was split from, you posted the first post then. Being firm and confident is not mutually exclusive of PR. PR does not mean we don't have rules, lack confidence, are wishy-washy, are permissive, etc. So when you bring up assertiveness, it's apples to oranges. Unless by your "firm" you mean you follow up with positive punishment...the "or else." Then it's just easier to be on the same page if you use that terminology.

I think you have some gross misconceptions of positive reinforcement training. Using rewards is not using bribes. Not all rewards are food. Certain breeds don't take heavier hands. You don't give one reward per one action for a dog's whole life. etc.

Fwiw, the majority of dogs I work with at the shelter are bully breeds and I use PR and NP with them exclusively and successfully. I don't need to be any more "assertive" with them than any other breed. PR works beautifully to help them overcome their reactivity and lack of impulse control....

I would encourage you to read these:
15 Must Read Dog Training Articles — The Crossover Trainer's BlogThe Crossover Trainer's Blog
dogs+ethics (new one to me but really on point)
Treat Training Trinity – Why positive reinforcement did not work for my dog. | awesomedogs
A Surprising Look at Balanced Training - Smart Dog University
Peaceable Paws

Wow...I think it's extreme to imply that by telling my dog "no" that I am punishing and inflicting fear and intimidation! I tell my dogs "no" and they simply stop doing whatever I'm asking them to not do and then we carry on with playing or cuddling or whatever it is we were doing...they don't cower or act depressed of fearful in ANY way, not even my shi tzu, lol. However everyone is entitled to their opinion...thanks for the links, I may look over them in my spare time

 

[BullyGirl80]

Punishment is whatever the dog doesn't like and takes as aversive/intimidating. In example my dog finds raised voices to be very punishing. Even if the voice is not directed at her.

My apologies...This is more so the comment that I was referring to. I asked what you were referring to as "punishment" and this is the answer that I got. My dog does NOT consider the word no to be intimidating.

 

[BullyGirl80]

Punishment is any consequence that reduces the probability of a behavior recurring. So, if saying "no" actually prevents your dog from getting into the trash or counter-surfing, it's punishment. If saying "no" doesn't change the dog's behavior, it's just a waste of breath and likely annoying for you and the dog.

from B. F. SKINNER by Dr. C. George Boeree

Here's a summary of Dunbar's perspective on punishment.



I don't need to carry treats with me, but I do for several reasons:
- I like to find opportunities to reinforce desirable behavior

- Some cues are still being proofed. Katie can sit or down just about anywhere, but we're still working on front and with me (sloppy heel). So, I use our walks to proof newer behaviors

- Katie can be reactive, so I use treats for both classical conditioning (barking dogs mean good things!) and operant conditioning (if I pay attention to "mom" instead of the barking dogs, good things happen).

- Katie has incredible food drive and food is easy to carry and use on walks. She loves to chase things, but it's impractical to play fetch in the street.

- She needs to eat, she might as well learn something while she's getting a meal.

Based on your comments, it sounds as though you don't have a complete grasp on operant conditioning and learning theory (they're huge topics!) and have some common misunderstandings of how they work in practice. This collection of posts has good information: Common Misconceptions. The training and behavior stickies are another excellent source of information.

This is a comment that suggests telling my dog "no" is punishment.

 

[BullyGirl80]

you keep using the words "some people" sure, some people bribe their dogs, some people shout at them, some people are violent to them etc... that doesn't make it the norm for the training method/philosophy... if i'm out in the woods, walking my dogs (which i do quite often) there is a good chance i won't have treats on hand since i often grab my boys and just go. in other situations where we are out and about, i will likely have treats on hand, but not always... my boys are both in need of training for certain situations. i definitely use treats then. i also use other things as rewards for them all the time... i try to use what they value most in that situation, as a reward for doing what i want them to do... sometimes that is food, sometimes a toy, sometimes it is being allowed to mark on a walk, sometimes it is being allowed to sniff etc... i don't HAVE to always use treats, but most of the time they are a really effective way to convey information to my dogs.

these would be considered punishments:

and this can be (or it can just be annoying):

but that depends on the dog...

This is another comment which suggests that saying "no" to my dogs is punishment....I totally disagree.

 

[BullyGirl80]

Well, it can certainly be a punishment. It just depends on how it's trained and used, and how the dog interprets it as a result. Dogs don't speak english, they don't learn a meaning for "no" unless it's taught to them. And it can either be taught as an aversive punishment, or as a positive interrupter.

If it's a positive interrupter, then it's used to distract the dog from an unwanted behavior so the dog can then be redirected. If you say "no", the dog should return to you or give you it's attention for further direction.

If it's an aversive punishment, it's used to deter the dog from performing that behavior again. If you say "no", the dog should stop the behavior because the "no" either is unpleasant to them, or means something unpleasant will soon be occurring.

Well I definitely don't scold or yell "no" at my dogs, lol. I calmly and firmly say no, they stop and look at me for further instructions when necessary, or they just stop the unwanted behavior and we carry on playing...for example when I play with my bulldog she can get a bit mouthy, I say no...and she stops, I say good girl, and then we continue play.

 

[BullyGirl80]

It is punishment in terms of operant conditioning. As that comment also suggested, you should really educate yourself on the four quadrants of operant conditioning before arguing and accusing people of saying you abuse your dogs.

Not on this particular thread, but on another forum I have been called an abuser and a few other names, none of which I am.

 

[BullyGirl80]

I do not have any objection to whether the OP uses the same technique I use.

My objection is to an entire method of training being mischaracterized by someone with a misunderstanding or incomplete understanding of what it even is. Lurkers read these threads, and I want it to be clear just what PR training is and isn't - eg, it's not bribery when done properly and there's no reason to think a properly PR trained dog is going to blow you off if you don't have a treat right then and there.

Obviously you haven't read through all of my threads. I did explain my over all view how my thoughts on treat training. I do know that treat training works, but I don't think it works with ALL dogs in ALL extreme situations.

 

[BullyGirl80]

@BullyGirl80 : For the sake of everyone--READ ABOUT THE FOUR QUADRANTS OF OPERANT CONDITIONING. This will literally explain all the things that you don't understand but continue to argue about and take personally.

Sorry, I'm trying to read and answer to everyone's comments and did not see the link in reference to the quadrants until after I had posted some of my last comments. I do not claim to be an expert trainer, but I know a bit, and I know what works for my past and present dogs. I also know others who use the same methods as I do and are successful. I'm not intending to down one method or the other, because I use a number of different methods, depending on the dog.

 

[BullyGirl80]

It seems like you think that treat training is the "cure all" magic training trick. Do you think that there are dogs who are too dangerous and too much of a liability to be rehabbed? I'm just asking this question out of curiosity.