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training methods discussion

12964 Views 88 Replies 19 Participants Last post by  ZoesMom
I think that because of CM lots of people confuse assertive training with fear and abuse...they couldn't be more wrong. Unfortunately some people think that if you're not always talking clickers and treats, than you're and abuser, which is also wrong. I use which ever method gets the reaction that I'm looking for with a dog...With my shi tzu treats work great, as with a lot of small dogs, she is slightly timid so there is no need for me to assert myself over her, however with my bulldog I use a more assertive approach because with a dog of her size and strength I have NO room for error. I have to be 100% certain that I am in control of her in public places, and when she is really excited and worked up, she could care less about a treat.
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I have to be 100% certain that I am in control of her in public places, and when she is really excited and worked up, she could care less about a treat.
This is a common misconception about reward-based training, though. (Sometimes I see this disparaged by people less tactful than you as "I'd like to see you call a dog off a deer by waving a cookie in its face!!!") The thing is, that moment when you are in public and she is really excited and worked up is NOT a training moment. Training takes place before that - starting in low distraction environments and gradually building up to teach your dog how to stay focused on you in distracting environments. If your dog isn't so overwhelmed they won't take a treat, they aren't ready for the situation yet.

I think that's why this particular misunderstanding happens - it's a slow process to teach, increase distractions, and proof a behavior. In the meantime, you have to manage. And many people prefer things that work faster with less build-up.

I am comfortable and confident in knowing that If my dog becomes fixated on something, that the sound of my voice is enough to snap her out of it, instead of hoping that I have one last treat in my fanny pack.
Again, this is a misunderstanding. Just because my dog was trained and proofed with treats, it doesn't mean I must have a treat with me in order for him to comply. The first time I took Squash to an off-leash area, I was easily able to call him off wildlife - but he was a year and a half old. I didn't expect him to do that, and didn't put him in a situation where he might need to, until he'd already HAD the training. Waving a cookie under your dog's nose in that moment of fixation is NOT rewards-based training, it's bribery and distraction.

But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat.
Mine... do? I'm not sure why you have this idea that dogs who were trained with treats will only respond if you are waving a treat in their face every time you ask them to do something?

And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.
I don't HAVE to, either, and usually I don't. But sometimes I do, because there are numerous opportunities to train and proof new and old behaviors every time I am interacting with my dog.
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I think it's just really easy to see examples of people using a method poorly and then mistake that for an inherent flaw in the method.

When not done correctly, you get those people/dogs who are completely dependent on treats and it's more like bribery. But that's an individual trainer weakness, not a method weakness. The method of reward-based training, when done correctly, is sound and effective, and many of use here have the pudding to prove it.
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You build up the behavior. You can't expect the dog to just right away go out and do all 17+ things from the get go. You build the game until the dog loves the game for the game itself.

Pretty well any positive trainign works the same way. Start small and with the dog under threshold and then work your way up.
Right, exactly. This is what I was trying to articulate, but much more concisely.

I mean, I am not the world's greatest trainer but if I can put an RN on a husky/American bulldog using positive training, then anyone can do anything with it. :p
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It means that I can give firm commands and can be confident that my dog will respond without treats, that's all.
Well, then, by that criteria I'm assertive, and I'd wager that everyone else commenting in this thread is, too. Because using this definition, using treats and being assertive are in no way mutually exclusive.
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Your dog doesn't seem like a danger to anyone and I assume she is a happy dog so it really doesn't matter what techniques different people would use IMO :)
I do not have any objection to whether the OP uses the same technique I use.

My objection is to an entire method of training being mischaracterized by someone with a misunderstanding or incomplete understanding of what it even is. Lurkers read these threads, and I want it to be clear just what PR training is and isn't - eg, it's not bribery when done properly and there's no reason to think a properly PR trained dog is going to blow you off if you don't have a treat right then and there.

:)
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Unfortunately the word "punishment" has come to carry a lot of negative baggage in some people's minds. In this context it is (or should be) a judgement-free, neutral term that simply means something that will reduce the frequency of a behavior.

For my dog Pip, a stern "no" absolutely is a punishment. For my dog Squash, it doesn't even register at best and at worst sometimes I think he considers it reinforcing, the mischievous little bugger. :p
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