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Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.

And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!

 

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I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.

Well, for one, a new dog owner shouldn't have a dog like that. And if they do, I couldn't, in good conscious, recommend they use aversive tactics or try the stunts that CM pulls. They will get themselves bitten. CM himself has been bitten more times than I care to count. He calls it a part of the process, but it shouldn't be. A dog that insecure shouldn't be provoked to attack or bite so that it can then be totally shut down. That's not a very nice way to treat a dog, especially not one that is frightened out of it's mind. He has made some dogs literally pee themselves by frightening them so much. It's like forcing a child on a rollercoster it's not ready to go on yet. You're going to cause more harm than good.

And again, treats work fine with those cases, IF you know what you are doing. And I feel MUCH more comfortable instructing somebody how to properly counter condition a dog using treats, because they are far less likely to put themselves, the dog, and others in danger. And the long term results will be much more reliable.

 

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I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.

Lol because we like to give our dogs treats!!!

My dogs all obey just fine without...It's a process we usually refer to as proofing. Once the dog learns the commend, you can begin phasing out the treats as you practice, and the dog will begin to obey out of habit.

But I like to carry treats on me sometimes because they are useful for capturing other good behaviors. You don't have to have training sessions to train your dog...You can capture, encourage and reinforce behaviors you like in every day life. Some people end up with dogs that are great in the training arena and great at formal obedience stuff or agility, but when they're not in the ring, training facility or doing a session, their dog is out of control. Their mistake was forgetting to reinforce the dog's good behavior in every day life. Even when you're not training, you're training.

Those of us that like to carry treats...We've just made it a habit to look for things we can reward are dogs for. It's better to toss treats and tell your dog yes and use moments as teaching moments, than having to constantly tell your dog no and correct it for doing things it shouldn't. Corrections don't tell the dog what you expect of it.

 

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Well, then, by that criteria I'm assertive, and I'd wager that everyone else commenting in this thread is, too. Because using this definition, using treats and being assertive are in no way mutually exclusive.

This.

Though honestly I've never really considered myself to be "assertive"...My dog is trained to know what a cue means, and what is expected of them when they hear or see the cue. I don't need to be "firm" with them. I simply ask them to do something in a normal tone of voice. Sometimes I don't speak at all, I give them a signal instead.

 

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This is a comment that suggests telling my dog "no" is punishment.

Well, it can certainly be a punishment. It just depends on how it's trained and used, and how the dog interprets it as a result. Dogs don't speak english, they don't learn a meaning for "no" unless it's taught to them. And it can either be taught as an aversive punishment, or as a positive interrupter.

If it's a positive interrupter, then it's used to distract the dog from an unwanted behavior so the dog can then be redirected. If you say "no", the dog should return to you or give you it's attention for further direction.

If it's an aversive punishment, it's used to deter the dog from performing that behavior again. If you say "no", the dog should stop the behavior because the "no" either is unpleasant to them, or means something unpleasant will soon be occurring.

 

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Obviously you haven't read through all of my threads. I did explain my over all view how my thoughts on treat training. I do know that treat training works, but I don't think it works with ALL dogs in ALL extreme situations.

We may just be having some miscommunication issues, but the fact that you keep stating that you don't think it works with ALL dogs kind of suggests to me that you really don't understand or know how it works in more complicated situations with dogs that might be harder to handle...Obviously for dogs that aren't food motivated, it doesn't, but for the sake of argument I'm including other forms of reinforcement under "treats". You seem to know the basics, you know how to train your dog to perform things like sit and roll over, and how to phase the treats out so you no longer need them. But you don't seem to know how to apply it to every day life for dogs that require rehabilitation from fear or aggression.

What sort of "extreme" situation do you have in mind, where you feel reward based training is useless? And what alternative solution would you propose?

 

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It seems like you think that treat training is the "cure all" magic training trick. Do you think that there are dogs who are too dangerous and too much of a liability to be rehabbed? I'm just asking this question out of curiosity.

It's not a magic training trick. Heck, there's nothing magical about it lol. It's basic psychology and principles of learning. It's classical and operant conditioning. It dates all the way back to Skinner and Pavlov. Positive reinforcement has been used in combination with negative reinforcement to train wild animals for decades, because if you use a punishment on them or get a little too stern, you might just lose your face.

I do believe that there are dogs that are too emotionally damaged to be rehabbed. Genetics obviously play a large part in a dogs temperament, and they cannot be controlled. You can sometimes only get so far with a genetically fearful dog that ended up in an unfortunate situation of abuse and/or neglect, no matter what method you employ.

 

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My reason for the question is because I was wondering if everyone thinks that treat training or any type of training for that matter works in ALL situations, just out of curiosity.

Ok now I feel like you're just duping us lol. April fools?

Was that really the ONLY "extreme" situation you had in mind that invalidates the notion that PR training can work in "ALL" situations? When I said it can work on all dogs for all situations if you know what you're doing, I wasn't meaning to include mentally or emotionally damaged dogs lol

 

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We are telling you that positive reinforcement (any type of reward) works in all situations. Except, as most would agree, in the case of something like snake aversion training where any fallout towards the snake is desired anyways.

Actually trainers are doing rattlesnake aversion training with PR now too! The problems with punishments still apply when using a shock collar for that purpose. If you can train a dog to avoid a rattlesnake using PR, and ingrain in the dog that leaving a rattlesnake alone is the most reinforcing thing ever, you're much better off.