Dog Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 89 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think that because of CM lots of people confuse assertive training with fear and abuse...they couldn't be more wrong. Unfortunately some people think that if you're not always talking clickers and treats, than you're and abuser, which is also wrong. I use which ever method gets the reaction that I'm looking for with a dog...With my shi tzu treats work great, as with a lot of small dogs, she is slightly timid so there is no need for me to assert myself over her, however with my bulldog I use a more assertive approach because with a dog of her size and strength I have NO room for error. I have to be 100% certain that I am in control of her in public places, and when she is really excited and worked up, she could care less about a treat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,869 Posts
Ehh I dunno… I just took on a waist-height GSD that I could probably ride and he is (and has been) working quite well with treats. 30 minutes into our first walk today he was very in-tune with my cues and looking to me for my say whenever we encountered people, dogs, really noisy trucks, etc. It established a rapport with the dog a lot faster than waiting for him to screw up and then 'dominating' him.

When you involve reward in training, you get a dog that is interested in you and the commands you have to issue 24/7. When you rely only on being 'assertive' you get a dog that begins to think 'The heck with you, I need look out for myself here!'
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ehh I dunno… I just took on a waist-height GSD that I could probably ride and he is (and has been) working quite well with treats. 30 minutes into our first walk today he was very in-tune with my cues and looking to me for my say whenever we encountered people, dogs, really noisy trucks, etc. It established a rapport with the dog a lot faster than waiting for him to screw up and then 'dominating' him.

When you involve reward in training, you get a dog that is interested in you and the commands you have to issue 24/7. When you rely only on being 'assertive' you get a dog that begins to think 'The heck with you, I need look out for myself here!'
Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,840 Posts
Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.
And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am comfortable and confident in knowing that If my dog becomes fixated on something, that the sound of my voice is enough to snap her out of it, instead of hoping that I have one last treat in my fanny pack. I don't "wait" for her to make a mistake, but if she does, I correct her with a "no" and a SLIGHT leash tug and a "sit" or "down" position. Once she follows my command she may be rewarded with a pet or a "good girl" or a treat. I don't give her a treat for EVERYTHING that she does right because dogs generally love to please us, and you're dog knows when you're pleased/happy without giving treats. But I do use treat training exclusively when first building a relationship with a dog. I like to know that my dog is in tune with ME...not a treat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,787 Posts
Treat rewards arefine but sense all dogs are different they may not work for every circumstance. In crowded areas with a lot of dogs my Rott ignores the highest value treats and even my independent,bull headed and high prey drive Malamute/gsd mix would look to my ques much better at those times. You have to really work for his focus and keep on your toes. I now avoid those places because he is too confrontational and high strung,even if I can keep him obedient during the first 20 minutes it goes down from there. Although most Rotts are lower key than he is so may not make the best example.

Scolding isn't necessary but interrupting bad behavior can be if it's self rewarding enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!
I never said that I use CM'S methods...I said that I'm an assertive trainer when necessary, my training varies by the mental state of the dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
And I wouldn't put ANY of my trust into CM's methods when working with an aggressive dog. You'll end up with a ticking time bomb that could go off at any moment. CM's methods do not change the dogs emotions. They only suppress behavior, particularly the ones that the dog is using to try and communicate with you. If you tell the dog it can't growl, can't shoot nervous looks, can't lift it's lip...But you don't take the time to counter condition the dog so it thinks the scary thing isn't so bad...The dog could go off at any moment because it's holding all those emotions and reactions in.

Treats work just fine with aggressive dogs, or any dog really, if you know what you're doing!
I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,513 Posts
Is this GSD aggressive? Treats do work great for some dogs, but I don't think I could put all of my trust into a treat when working with an aggressive dog.
that isn't really how training with treats work. you aren't/shouldn't be using them as bribes, you use them as reinforcement the difference is HUGE. what do you put your trust in, when dealing with an aggressive dog? i mean, exactly what do you resort to, and how does it work?

I am comfortable and confident in knowing that If my dog becomes fixated on something, that the sound of my voice is enough to snap her out of it, instead of hoping that I have one last treat in my fanny pack. I don't "wait" for her to make a mistake, but if she does, I correct her with a "no" and a SLIGHT leash tug and a "sit" or "down" position. Once she follows my command she may be rewarded with a pet or a "good girl" or a treat. I don't give her a treat for EVERYTHING that she does right because dogs generally love to please us, and you're dog knows when you're pleased/happy without giving treats. But I do use treat training exclusively when first building a relationship with a dog. I like to know that my dog is in tune with ME...not a treat.
dogs do not love to please us, that is one of the biggest myths regarding dog behavior out there. dogs appear to want to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor (no they don't plan it this way, we humans perceive it this way) again, if you are worried that the dog is in tune with the treat, you aren't using them properly.



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,840 Posts
I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.
Well, for one, a new dog owner shouldn't have a dog like that. And if they do, I couldn't, in good conscious, recommend they use aversive tactics or try the stunts that CM pulls. They will get themselves bitten. CM himself has been bitten more times than I care to count. He calls it a part of the process, but it shouldn't be. A dog that insecure shouldn't be provoked to attack or bite so that it can then be totally shut down. That's not a very nice way to treat a dog, especially not one that is frightened out of it's mind. He has made some dogs literally pee themselves by frightening them so much. It's like forcing a child on a rollercoster it's not ready to go on yet. You're going to cause more harm than good.

And again, treats work fine with those cases, IF you know what you are doing. And I feel MUCH more comfortable instructing somebody how to properly counter condition a dog using treats, because they are far less likely to put themselves, the dog, and others in danger. And the long term results will be much more reliable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,513 Posts
Treat rewards arefine but sense all dogs are different they may not work for every circumstance. In crowded areas with a lot of dogs my Rott ignores the highest value treats and even my independent,bull headed and high prey drive Malamute/gsd mix would look to my ques much better at those times. You have to really work for his focus and keep on your toes. I now avoid those places because he is too confrontational and high strung,even if I can keep him obedient during the first 20 minutes it goes down from there. Although most Rotts are lower key than he is so may not make the best example.

Scolding isn't necessary but interrupting bad behavior can be if it's self rewarding enough.

THIS!!! exactly! ;) if your dog is too aroused to take a treat, that is a sign that you are putting him in a situation that is beyond his skills to handle training wise. it has nothing to do with the value of the treat, the stubborness/drive of the dog and more to do with his level of training. clearly you've figured that out :)

also, fwiw, treats are not the definition of positive reinforcement/non-punishment training. there is so much more nuance to it than that. there are far more options in training than treat/punishment...



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
that isn't really how training with treats work. you aren't/shouldn't be using them as bribes, you use them as reinforcement the difference is HUGE. what do you put your trust in, when dealing with an aggressive dog? i mean, exactly what do you resort to, and how does it work?



dogs do not love to please us, that is one of the biggest myths regarding dog behavior out there. dogs appear to want to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor (no they don't plan it this way, we humans perceive it this way) again, if you are worried that the dog is in tune with the treat, you aren't using them properly.
I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,513 Posts
I think that if you we're to tell a new dog owner with a large and highly aggressive dog that "treats work fine" you would be setting them up for a disaster! Treats work great in SOME situations...not ALL. A dog who is in a red zone mind state may not care at all about the treat in your hand. I'm sorry but some people need to realize that the dog world is not always as sweet and kind and gentle as we humans would like to believe that it is.
if your dog is in a "red zone state" and you believe that punishing it is the best approach, i'd be pleading with you to MANAGE the dog for safety purposes and then to seek out a qualified professional.

advocating against the use of punishments for training is NOT a sign that you are deluded, or confused about the dog world. it also doesn't mean that you lack consistency or allow your dogs to walk all over you. i own a rottie mix myself and have done A LOT of rehabilitation with him, without the use of punishments (though i will admit that sadly, and ashamedly i have failed him in moments of frustration) and i KNOW how and when to properly apply punishment. i know how to use aversive training tools, and have used them in the past. and since i've used them, i've chosen to educate myself further and now i know better, more effective ways of training, as well as why they work.



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,513 Posts
I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.
it is not the same thing. and my dog obeys me just fine without treats. AND i don't have to punish him for that to happen.

people walk around with bags of treats because training is continuous throughout the dog's life (or it should be) it doesn't mean that they MUST use the treats in all situations.



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Well, for one, a new dog owner shouldn't have a dog like that. And if they do, I couldn't, in good conscious, recommend they use aversive tactics or try the stunts that CM pulls. They will get themselves bitten. CM himself has been bitten more times than I care to count. He calls it a part of the process, but it shouldn't be. A dog that insecure shouldn't be provoked to attack or bite so that it can then be totally shut down. That's not a very nice way to treat a dog, especially not one that is frightened out of it's mind. He has made some dogs literally pee themselves by frightening them so much. It's like forcing a child on a rollercoster it's not ready to go on yet. You're going to cause more harm than good.

And again, treats work fine with those cases, IF you know what you are doing. And I feel MUCH more comfortable instructing somebody how to properly counter condition a dog using treats, because they are far less likely to put themselves, the dog, and others in danger. And the long term results will be much more reliable.
Once again, I'm not CM nor do I use all of his methods of training. Why do you keep telling me about CM?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,840 Posts
I guess you could then say that dogs love to please us because it makes the relationship work in their favor lol...pretty much the same thing IMO. And i do use treats exclusively during early training with a new dog, I think treats are wonderful for learning and building a trust relationship. But there should come a point where your dog will obey you without a treat. And if so why do people walk around with bags of treats tied to their waists? My dog and I have a wonderful bond and relationship, and I don't HAVE to carry around a bag of goodies.
Lol because we like to give our dogs treats!!! :D

My dogs all obey just fine without...It's a process we usually refer to as proofing. Once the dog learns the commend, you can begin phasing out the treats as you practice, and the dog will begin to obey out of habit.

But I like to carry treats on me sometimes because they are useful for capturing other good behaviors. You don't have to have training sessions to train your dog...You can capture, encourage and reinforce behaviors you like in every day life. Some people end up with dogs that are great in the training arena and great at formal obedience stuff or agility, but when they're not in the ring, training facility or doing a session, their dog is out of control. Their mistake was forgetting to reinforce the dog's good behavior in every day life. Even when you're not training, you're training.

Those of us that like to carry treats...We've just made it a habit to look for things we can reward are dogs for. It's better to toss treats and tell your dog yes and use moments as teaching moments, than having to constantly tell your dog no and correct it for doing things it shouldn't. Corrections don't tell the dog what you expect of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
it is not the same thing. and my dog obeys me just fine without treats. AND i don't have to punish him for that to happen.

people walk around with bags of treats because training is continuous throughout the dog's life (or it should be) it doesn't mean that they MUST use the treats in all situations.
I'm curious as to what you mean by "punish"? And it does seem that treats are some peoples life lines...
 

·
Premium Member
Zoe, Phoenix, Alice - ACDx
Joined
·
4,325 Posts
it is not the same thing. and my dog obeys me just fine without treats. AND i don't have to punish him for that to happen.

people walk around with bags of treats because training is continuous throughout the dog's life (or it should be) it doesn't mean that they MUST use the treats in all situations.
Same here! I like capturing good behavior whenever and where ever it's offered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,513 Posts
I'm curious as to what you mean by "punish"? And it does seem that treats are some peoples life lines...
you keep using the words "some people" sure, some people bribe their dogs, some people shout at them, some people are violent to them etc... that doesn't make it the norm for the training method/philosophy... if i'm out in the woods, walking my dogs (which i do quite often) there is a good chance i won't have treats on hand since i often grab my boys and just go. in other situations where we are out and about, i will likely have treats on hand, but not always... my boys are both in need of training for certain situations. i definitely use treats then. i also use other things as rewards for them all the time... i try to use what they value most in that situation, as a reward for doing what i want them to do... sometimes that is food, sometimes a toy, sometimes it is being allowed to mark on a walk, sometimes it is being allowed to sniff etc... i don't HAVE to always use treats, but most of the time they are a really effective way to convey information to my dogs.

these would be considered punishments:
I correct her with a "no"
and this can be (or it can just be annoying):
a SLIGHT leash tug
but that depends on the dog...



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 
1 - 20 of 89 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top