Dog Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
41 - 60 of 86 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,054 Posts
I agree, Peyton came from mexico...he has a tattoo on his ear, a big "N" for neutered... I know he was neutered around 10 weeks because we got him at 10 weeks and he had the stitched which needed to come out within 7 days. He doesn't lift his leg but he doesn't squat either LOL oh well no biggie.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Yep!

Its on a sliding scale tho....really tiny breeds you might not see any effect and with giant breeds it can be downright debilitating.




Iam against whats called a "pediatric neuter" as there isn't much research/info on its long term effects.

BUT I must admit that Chili was neutered at 5 weeks old

I had no choice in the matter as it is mandatory in CA if you get a dog from a shelter. I began to ask knowlegdeable dog people what the effects might be (I researched on my own as well)

Thin/fragile bone structure
Wont lift leg since he wont know hes a boy:rolleyes:
Increased chance of temprament problems

There were more an I forget them

Well I can say my boy humps and lifts his leg and is full aware of himself he also does not have the thin frail bone structure that everyone insisted a early neuter would cause (hes quite bulky actually, he also is a small breed)

as far as temprament, he is reactive, but that is a very common thing and is much more likely traced back to being removed from his mother so young.

So yeah, Im done rambling, just a thought.
Do you have any side pics of Chilli? As I was just talking to someone else about this in another dog, as my gramps dog was done at 6 months, his mum and his gran were at the most 15ins, his dad was a yorkie and he shot up to just over 20ins, which I think is a bit much, but anyways, and she was saying that they best way to see if this was mainly due to his early neuter he would have a more puppy like apperance, I.E longer looking legs, and a smaller chest etc, so do you have any pics of Chilli, it would be intresting to see :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,680 Posts
I will try and find one. I just tried to open photobucket and my computer had a heart attack. So I'll have to wait a bit. :)

He is still a puppy tho, so of course, he will look like one. ;)



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Photobucket does play up sometimes, and poor computer lol. Aww bless how old is he then?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
I totally agree with neuteuring! When no one neuteured their dogs there was people being killed by feral packs, starving diseased dogs roaming the streets and people drowning puppies. Now people spay and neuteur their pets these problems have almost disapeared and dogs are happier. If no one fixed their pets we would be back to square one. So I don't people should be going around preaching that you shouldn't spay/neuteur your pets, ok, some people chose not to do it and are responsible and keep their dog under control, that's fine and is their decision, but there are others who are not so responsible and let their dogs off roaming.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
I don't believe in complete spay/neuters (unless there are severe temperament problems). My vet is holistic and has done studies on what the lack of hormones does to an animal. She has found significantly unhealthy results. Why put a dog through menopause early?? So when any of my dogs get spayed/neutered, I will remove the uterus but leave the ovaries, and do a visectomy but leave the testicles. This allows the dog to keep it's natural hormones but no longer have the ability to breed (or develop pyometra).
Dogs "roaming" is not because the dog is intact. It's because the owner is too irresponsible to keep it's dog contained. If you know your dog has a habit of escaping, whether it's intact or not it should either have a better system for containing or it should be supervised when outdoors. It astounds me how many people can blame it on their dog's hormones -- sorry, but a dog is a dog whether it has the urge to roam or not. You took an oath to keep that dog safe no matter what. If you're too lazy to do so, then you shouldn't own a dog.
I breed dogs. I've never ONCE had an intact male or a female in heat escape the yard, a female in heat is NEVER left unnattended outside, and an intact adult male is ONLY left unnattended outside if in a completely confined dog kennel/run. I make sure my dogs have an excellent recall, and I never let them offlead if I think it's unsafe. It's called being a responsible dog owner and my dogs don't need to have their organs ripped out in order for me to do this.
It's part of my pet contract that owners either spay/neuter in the way that allows the hormones ot be intact, or to do a complete spay/neuter after 18 months to allow the growth plates to close properly -- but, complete spay/neuters void some of the health guarantees on my contract (such as bone cancer) so it's in the owner's best interest to allow the dog to be as natural as possible without leaving it completely intact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,054 Posts
I don't believe in complete spay/neuters (unless there are severe temperament problems). My vet is holistic and has done studies on what the lack of hormones does to an animal. She has found significantly unhealthy results. Why put a dog through menopause early?? So when any of my dogs get spayed/neutered, I will remove the uterus but leave the ovaries, and do a visectomy but leave the testicles. This allows the dog to keep it's natural hormones but no longer have the ability to breed (or develop pyometra).
Dogs "roaming" is not because the dog is intact. It's because the owner is too irresponsible to keep it's dog contained. If you know your dog has a habit of escaping, whether it's intact or not it should either have a better system for containing or it should be supervised when outdoors. It astounds me how many people can blame it on their dog's hormones -- sorry, but a dog is a dog whether it has the urge to roam or not. You took an oath to keep that dog safe no matter what. If you're too lazy to do so, then you shouldn't own a dog.
I breed dogs. I've never ONCE had an intact male or a female in heat escape the yard, a female in heat is NEVER left unnattended outside, and an intact adult male is ONLY left unnattended outside if in a completely confined dog kennel/run. I make sure my dogs have an excellent recall, and I never let them offlead if I think it's unsafe. It's called being a responsible dog owner and my dogs don't need to have their organs ripped out in order for me to do this.
It's part of my pet contract that owners either spay/neuter in the way that allows the hormones ot be intact, or to do a complete spay/neuter after 18 months to allow the growth plates to close properly -- but, complete spay/neuters void some of the health guarantees on my contract (such as bone cancer) so it's in the owner's best interest to allow the dog to be as natural as possible without leaving it completely intact.
First of all, intact dogs have more of an urge to roam, fact.

You say people cannot blame the dogs hormones, but you blame the lack of hormones for problems that occur after altering, double standard in my eyes.

I figured you were a breeder with the first couple of sentences and other posts.

I love how breeders make contract which say the pups they SELL must be fixed, I have never understood this, if you feel your dogs genes are so great why don't people who overpay for a pup from you have the right to breed theirs? Such a hypocritical fact of purchasing from breeders. :eyeroll:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
First of all, intact dogs have more of an urge to roam, fact.

You say people cannot blame the dogs hormones, but you blame the lack of hormones for problems that occur after altering, double standard in my eyes.

I figured you were a breeder with the first couple of sentences and other posts.

I love how breeders make contract which say the pups they SELL must be fixed, I have never understood this, if you feel your dogs genes are so great why don't people who overpay for a pup from you have the right to breed theirs? Such a hypocritical fact of purchasing from breeders. :eyeroll:
Yes, intact dogs do have more of an urge to roam. So do Siberian huskies and some other breeds. Should people blame the fact that they can't keep their dog contained on the dog's breed? NO. So why should they blame it on the hormones? Because they are too lazy to keep their dog in a fenced yard? I know a lady that owns sometimes up to 30 rescued alaskan huskies at a time. She has 10 foot elcosures with rooves on them, fencing that goes 4 feet under the ground, and concrete along the fence walls. She's not about to make any excuses about her dogs getting away because "huskies are escape artists by nature and like to roam." Nope, she is a responsible dog owner, she acknowledges the fact that SHE has to keep her dogs safe, and she takes the precautions to do so. No dog should ever be able to escape it's yard, intact or not. You can't blame hormones for your dog's escape. It isn't the hormones that caused you to leave your dog unsupervised, and it isn't the hormones that caused you to leave your dog in an improper enclosure. No matter what way you look at it, it's your own fault if your dog gets loose, and if you can't keep a dog contained, for the safety of any animal you shouldn't own one, intact or not. It has nothign to do with the dog being intact, and everything to do with the fact that you took the oath, as a dog owner, to keep your dog contained. And this is why so many people get bitten, so many dogs get attacked, etc -- Because people don't do the research, people don't know when to keep their dogs onleash, and people don't know how to keep their dogs contained. It's NEVER the dog's fault.

No, I do not blame the dog hormones. Yes, I do blame a lack of hormones for health problems. How is that a double standard? Blaming hormones and blaming a lack of hormones are two completely different things. Each has it's own issues in it's own regard, I prefer to keep hormones, some people don't. Not here to judge, just here to say that it's silly to blame hormones when the issues they produce (for the most part, like, yes, roaming) could be easily prevented. You can't prevent health problems that come from lack of hormones (unless with hormone replacement therapy, which is not a fun thing either).

Your last comment kind of astounds me... not to get off topic, but how can a breeder not care what kind of home their puppies go to? Of course I place some pups on spay/neuter contracts! Any dog bred should pass all of the required health certifications, have good structure, good temperament, and be an excellent example of the breed. Why would I place a puppy in a home that is just goign to breed it to try and make a buck? I am willing to change my pet puppies to breeding status (from limited reg. to breeding papers) if the owners test a minimum of hips, elbows, and eyes, and acquire atleast one title or certification -- and the dog must have had an above average structure evaluation before leaving me (however unless this is already an established breeding home, I must-co-own the dog to make sure the dog is being bred ethically). I would never sell puppies not worthy of being bred to breeding homes. It's unethical!! People do not "overpay" for a puppy from me. I spent THOUSANDS on my last litter and guess what I made in return?? Exactly NOTHING. I did a frozen semen artificial insemination which required a great deal of pregesterone testing (and driving several hours every second day), shipping of the semen, storing of the semen, fedexing the semen, surgical insemination on my female, maitenenance of my female for 9 weeks, a C-SECTION, and resulted in two pups that I had to feed and care for for 10 weeks, I spent a great deal of gas money driving one pup to the states and back to be shipped to CO, I paid for the crate she was shipped in. She was my stud fee puppy so she was given away for no money, and I ended up keeping the male that I will now need to pay for for the rest of his life. How does that make my puppies overpriced? I've hd one litter and two co-bred litters and lost several thousand dollars on each one, but I don't care, because I do it for the love of the breed. Sorry to the other list-members for getting off-topic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,680 Posts
I don't think anyone is blaming a dogs testicles for escaping...the DESIRE to excape tho...is higher in an unaltered male dog.


UB...just out of curiousity have you ever had som'one ignore a spay/neuter contract...I hear from breeders that legally there is no way to back up such a contract.

Your placement of pups sounds well thought out. Especially the "need to have a title" part...I assume you have working lines?



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,054 Posts
Yes, intact dogs do have more of an urge to roam. So do Siberian huskies and some other breeds. Should people blame the fact that they can't keep their dog contained on the dog's breed? NO. So why should they blame it on the hormones? Because they are too lazy to keep their dog in a fenced yard? I know a lady that owns sometimes up to 30 rescued alaskan huskies at a time. She has 10 foot elcosures with rooves on them, fencing that goes 4 feet under the ground, and concrete along the fence walls. She's not about to make any excuses about her dogs getting away because "huskies are escape artists by nature and like to roam." Nope, she is a responsible dog owner, she acknowledges the fact that SHE has to keep her dogs safe, and she takes the precautions to do so. No dog should ever be able to escape it's yard, intact or not. You can't blame hormones for your dog's escape. It isn't the hormones that caused you to leave your dog unsupervised, and it isn't the hormones that caused you to leave your dog in an improper enclosure. No matter what way you look at it, it's your own fault if your dog gets loose, and if you can't keep a dog contained, for the safety of any animal you shouldn't own one, intact or not. It has nothign to do with the dog being intact, and everything to do with the fact that you took the oath, as a dog owner, to keep your dog contained. And this is why so many people get bitten, so many dogs get attacked, etc -- Because people don't do the research, people don't know when to keep their dogs onleash, and people don't know how to keep their dogs contained. It's NEVER the dog's fault.

No, I do not blame the dog hormones. Yes, I do blame a lack of hormones for health problems. How is that a double standard? Blaming hormones and blaming a lack of hormones are two completely different things. Each has it's own issues in it's own regard, I prefer to keep hormones, some people don't. Not here to judge, just here to say that it's silly to blame hormones when the issues they produce (for the most part, like, yes, roaming) could be easily prevented. You can't prevent health problems that come from lack of hormones (unless with hormone replacement therapy, which is not a fun thing either).

Your last comment kind of astounds me... not to get off topic, but how can a breeder not care what kind of home their puppies go to? Of course I place some pups on spay/neuter contracts! Any dog bred should pass all of the required health certifications, have good structure, good temperament, and be an excellent example of the breed. Why would I place a puppy in a home that is just goign to breed it to try and make a buck? I am willing to change my pet puppies to breeding status (from limited reg. to breeding papers) if the owners test a minimum of hips, elbows, and eyes, and acquire atleast one title or certification -- and the dog must have had an above average structure evaluation before leaving me (however unless this is already an established breeding home, I must-co-own the dog to make sure the dog is being bred ethically). I would never sell puppies not worthy of being bred to breeding homes. It's unethical!! People do not "overpay" for a puppy from me. I spent THOUSANDS on my last litter and guess what I made in return?? Exactly NOTHING. I did a frozen semen artificial insemination which required a great deal of pregesterone testing (and driving several hours every second day), shipping of the semen, storing of the semen, fedexing the semen, surgical insemination on my female, maitenenance of my female for 9 weeks, a C-SECTION, and resulted in two pups that I had to feed and care for for 10 weeks, I spent a great deal of gas money driving one pup to the states and back to be shipped to CO, I paid for the crate she was shipped in. She was my stud fee puppy so she was given away for no money, and I ended up keeping the male that I will now need to pay for for the rest of his life. How does that make my puppies overpriced? I've hd one litter and two co-bred litters and lost several thousand dollars on each one, but I don't care, because I do it for the love of the breed. Sorry to the other list-members for getting off-topic.
So you do not think it is wrong to put a dog through all of this? Breeding is something I will never accept and understand especially when you put a female through this type of stuff, its just my opinion and my feelings especially coming from a place that is experiencing horrible economic struggles and people are breeding everywhere when other pets are losing their lives in the shelters. I do find it interesting that your vet does partial altering. I have never heard of that, can only imagine how much more expensive it is than full altering, and would be interested in researching it.

My point of altering pets is that yes there are irresponsible owners who have unaltered males and females who get out and reproduce, bite people, attack other dogs, etc etc. Altering at least helps somewhat to control an animals urges and like you said its our responsibility to make sure our pets are controlled. Hormones cause certain behaviors in animals and in humans.

I too do think you have a well thought out process for placing the pups and feel many breeders (not back yard of breeders of course) have similar processes which I think needs to happen breeder or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,680 Posts
I just realized you are in Canada.

Here in the US there are massive numbers of dogs euthanized (6 million) annually.

I find that many canadian and european dog owners are Far far far more responsible than the average person in the US. We need to have people alter pets here to protect average joe blows dog from their owners stupidty.

That said if som' one is absolutely responsible with an unaltered animal, people still have "oops" and "accident" liters.... Iam what I consider a savy, and responsible owner...but I can't control everyone else...I can't make my yard into a fortress (trust me i'd put a moat in if I could) but city ordinace does not allow anything over 4' tall....I can keep my dogs in, but keeping a male out would be futile.


For what its worth, out of the dozens upon dozens of strays I've seen/caught and I can count the females on two fingers...one was an unweaned pup...almost ALL where intact male dogs. Yes if they were kept in fortresses, they would not have excaped, but to expect that kind of containment from the average dog owner is fantasy. :)


IMO for the average person, altering its better safe than sorry.



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Oh I completely agree that for the average person, complete spay/neuters are the best idea, and would probably make the world a better place if 90% of people did them -- it's just not what I want for my dogs or my puppies. It's not something I believe in, but I won't chastise or judge others for doing it -- I will however chastise them for having dogs that are uncontrollable or loose all the time, and they can make the "it's because it's intact" excuse. My dogs are intact and are not loose or uncontrollable in the least and I hate it when people automatically assume that my males pee on everything and impregnate every female they come across, because so many people have made excuses for their own dogs. It's called training your dog and being responsible. Never had a dog mark in my house, not once -- never had an accidental litter. Now, my female is due to come into heat in about a month and she is absolutely wingy and stupid right now because of it LOL, so it just means she doesn't get to go outside unsupervised, and she isn't allowed offleash in public. The average person would say "oh well, she has a month to go, so if she gets out of the yard, atleast she won't get pregnant," and then when the dog DOES get out of the yard, the dog is in major trouble, when you KNEW there was a chance it would try to escape. That is my issue. Whether a dog is intact, partially neutered, or completely neutered, it's our responsibility to keep our dogs safe and not make excuses.

So you do not think it is wrong to put a dog through all of this? Breeding is something I will never accept and understand especially when you put a female through this type of stuff, its just my opinion and my feelings especially coming from a place that is experiencing horrible economic struggles and people are breeding everywhere when other pets are losing their lives in the shelters. I do find it interesting that your vet does partial altering. I have never heard of that, can only imagine how much more expensive it is than full altering, and would be interested in researching it.
That is what goes along with responsible breeding. You have to learn to care about the breed enough to put your dogs at risk, which can be hard for alot of people, and these are the people that quit breeding after 4 or 5 years (and this is why I stress for people to get their dogs spayed/neutered, and not to breed, because in the short time I've been breeding, I've seen it all, and it can be devastating). There is alot of heartache in breeding. Yes, to bring back lines that have been dead for many many years (for the health and structure/movement that the breed is losing), I absolutely do frozen semen breedings. My female would have had no trouble delivering the puppies if she had a uterus that had been used enough previously -- fact is, I waited till she was older, because I feel that I need to know the health of the dog (which is why I like using frozen semen too -- it lets me know how long the dog lived, what it died of, and what issues it produced) before breeding it. I know it's more risky for the dog, but for the breed and the pups involved, I can virutally know for sure that I'm not breeding a dog that is going to develop epilepsy the year after I breed it (after a certain age, it's thought not to be caused genetically). Is it fair for the dog? Not really -- it'd be fair for the dog if I bred it at age 2 -- then a c-section wouldn't have been nessecary. However, what if she had developed epilepsy the year after? I've just subjected an entire litter of puppies to probably developing seizures. so I DO put the health of the breed ahead of my dogs, and people that can't do that shouldn't breed.

Up here, MOST vets do partial spays on females (take out the uterus and leave the ovaries). Most don't do it on males however (I think there is a big thing against males having their testicles lol). A friend of mine got an older female pit bull with severe dog aggression issues, and she wanted the hormones GONE (which I completely agree with in situations like this). Not a single vet in town would do it, as it's just not protocol these days since all of the bone cancer studies that have gone on (my vet actually participated in an amazing study with bone cancer and neutering rottweilers). She finally went down to the sleezy vet that will do almost anything for a buck and demanded it. She fought with the girl there for a few minutes before the vet came out and said he'd do it (and he actually cut some big artery and the dog almost bled to death, she was touch and go for a while after this -- the vet wouldn't even apologize, he sent his office girl out to tell my friend, she was livid).

I certainly won't deny that spaying/neutering is the best thing for the world (it's like the whole "herd vaccination theory" -- another thing I don't do, funny enough) -- It's just not something I want to do unless my dog has an issue that requires it (I've had two dogs that absolutely needed everything removed -- one due to cancer, one due to temperament problems), and I think it's important that people find ways to keep their dogs under control, whether they are intact or not, and not just use the "I spayed/neutered my dog so it won't escape now" theory, because it's just not the case -- if your dog wants out (whether due to hormones, lack of training, breed instinct, etc), it will find a way!

Btw -- wanted to add -- in most European countries, it is not protocol to spay or neuter all at (partial or not). If you look at the health statistics that alot of the Belgian breeders put on their pages, they will actually list every single health issue about that dog, and will always include whether the dog has been altered. Very few of them have been. And in most European countries, as we know, dogs are allowed virutally anywhere -- even in restaurants. It goes to show you that if everyone were as responsible, we could have the same virtual harmony over here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,680 Posts
Great post ;)

Iam quite jealous of the European Countries allowing dogs practically everywhere...*sigh*

Personally, I don't really like the idea of breeding with such a surplus of dogs, but I must respect the effort you are making to be responsible about it :)



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Thanks Criosphynx, believe me I wish I felt like I didn't have to breed -- but I feel like my breed is going downhill majorly! :( There is such a limited gene pool because so many people breed to the same dogs, and we're losing our structure/movement -- there is actually a proposal to try to change the tervuren standard in the US to make the shoulders 10 degrees straighter, because so many breeders don't want to fix their mistakes but keep making the same mistakes instead. We're getting so many cowhocked straight shouldered dogs, and it's really sad.. so my goal is to keep good structure, while carrying on a line that is relatively unseen (actually the pedigree I have right now from my last litter is darn right unseen -- the sire was born over 20 years ago). I agree that too many people breed their dogs! And I definatly agree that I am also jealous I can' take my dogs everwhyere..though I try to hehe. When I was a teenager I made fake guide dog vests so I could take my dogs into places LOL -- when you get older you just don't have the guts to do that kind of stuff anymore!
 
41 - 60 of 86 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top