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Eddie 9 month pup, is a crazy bc x. Very high energy and arrived with no off switch 2 months ago. So far ive used my other dog to help him. I.e. recall her- he comes too. Hes hand shy which affects hand feeding treats. Also plays keep away (3 foot) on recalls. We are working on his trusting me. Problems i need help with:-
1. Jumping up when excited and nipping you on jump. So i have asked for a sit, he sits (click) then leaps at you as you go to give treat. Impulsive bursting would be a way to describe it.
Another rather suprising example happened on walk this morning: i took too long to throw ball for my other dog- so he jumped on my shoulders and bit my head. Very excitedly.
2. Hes not clear headed. He strugles to think clearly as often above threshold. Unless crated- when hes switched off.
 

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I need help in how to manage such insane level of prey drive in a as yet, untrained dog. I would appreciate more examples of its your choice games perhaps? And what i want is for eddie to be able to relax. Hes getting plenty of exercise, juice (gsd pup 14 months) to play with. And short 3 minute training sessions x 4 daily. Weve been working on perch- getting him to take food from my hand. Will if on perch, but not generalising this as early days. So wont in lounge room for instance.
 

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Sometimes Riley will snap for his treat, not trying to bite me just snap at the air, when he does that I tell him know and wait until he will sit calmly for me to give him his treat with jumping up and snapping at the air. So maybe when he jumps up for the treat just correct him and wait until he sit's calmly to reward him.
Place (stay on a mat/bed/etc and stay calm until release) helps create a calm space for a dog that can often translate into a calmer dog. Maybe try that?
 

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tether & B-mod.

Wow. Not one response. Is this blackballing me?
.

don't get paranoid, LOL - posts get bumped down the roster by newer posts, & are buried. :D
Plus, lots of folks are lurkers rather than posters, who just lookey-loo & move to the next thread. :shrug:
IME, something between 10% & 25% of any forum's membership are active posters; the rest rarely or never post.


to return to yer dog's issues with impulse control - there are loads of possible ways to either B-Mod or manage it.
For the jumping, i'd tether him & work on it by rewarding 4-feet-on-the-floor heavily, but swerve away when he jumps.

here's a series of 7 vid-clips of LAYLA, a notorious habitual jumper who had already injured 2 adults -


HTH,
- terry

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Discussion Starter #6
Hey Terry. Cant see videos? I am rewarding 4 feet on floor. So sun roast with 3 kids, partners and grandchildren 'test' of progress: eddie on leash. Baby in daughters arms, a huge trigger to jump as baby crying. And jumped, but couldnt get far as my foot on dragging leash. And that was it! No jumps after getting nowhere and treating when sits for pats n treat and to see/sniff/lick baby then left daughter/baby alone. Till next crying baby n he comes legging it into lounge barking to let us know baby is awake in bedroom. On leash he comes to babies room, sits and i pass baby for another checkover by eddie whilst sat being fed treats. We do have progress. Slow going, but compared to sunday dinner last week- were getting there?
 

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He would not pass temperament test to train with a club. Very different behaviours IPO to working sheep. Tracking works though?
 

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@ leashed4life: been doing this alone. He's good with me, coz im boring. Getting a helper is difficult.
When i get home from work, i ignore him till he sits. click/treat whilst i clip leash on, whilst saying hi, step on that leash, and straighten up, but with food in hand at his head height. click/treat for staying sat.

Had to smile at gloves on helper. Eddie has shown little bite inhibition on 2 occasions i have worn gloves. So i removed them for now. The video reminded me to bring them back in. So thanks.
 

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Ahh, the teenage dog stage, always loads of fun! Thank goodness it does not last for 8 years like it does with us humans.

To harness the prey drive maybe make a flirt pole with a real skin on it and some sort of animal scent like they use to attract animals during hunting season.

Teach release cues, like drop it, or bring it back to you. It'll work both his mind and body. I will say that if you are going to use him for herding it might not be something you should use since it involves chasing and catching, not moving livestock in the direction you want them to go and may teach him to cause chaos when turned loose on sheep.

If you're just teaching him to not jump up on you, and don't want him to hold a sit position, maybe dropping the reward, rather then handing it to him, would work better. If you want him to hold the position then you are going to have to teach him that jumping up not only does not get him the treat but also causes the human to completely ignore him and if necessary leave him alone for a few minutes. Sort, he sits like you ask, so you click then as you give him the treat he jumps up to snatch it. First I'd keep the treat in my fist so he has no target to snatch at, and if necessary I'd have on a chainmail glove like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W5DMX3C so that if he grabbed at my fist it'd get him nothing. If I got down to him and he was still sitting open fist and give treat, if he snatches close fist till he settles, then try again. If he jumps up stand straight and ignore him till he sits then try clicking and treating again. If he keeps jumping go away from him and leave him alone for a couple minutes. He needs to learn that the consequence of jumping causes the things he wants to go away, and that 4 on floor is the best thing ever, treats, attention, play, walks, etc only happen when he is not jumping on his human. That type of training may take awhile but it does work.

Shadow my terrier mix had decided that my cousin David should not come over, he wasn't afraid of him just took a dislike to him, and every time he did Shadow would start growling, and hard staring. I'd tell Shadow enough and he'd keep it up so I'd pick him up and put him outside till David left. Shadow's goal in life was to be inside. There came a day when David came over and Shadow started growling then stopped, looked at me, looked at David, laid down and just kept an eye on things, he got to stay inside and was content LOL.
 

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Is he mentally exercised/stimulated? I had AWFUL problems with crazy zoomies when I first got my 11 month old lab. She would literally crash into our hard log walls, knock tables over. I thought she was going to hurt herself, and grabbed her as she zoomed by - and she excitedly snapped me right in the face - playing. She got PLENTY of physical exercise. I went out and bought two or three kongs, puzzle balls, etc. I now give her her meals in a kong, and split them into three or four kongs, and freeze them. She's calmed down tenfold since I've started exercising her mind- both physically and mentally. They almost taught her "patience" with her food.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ahh, the teenage dog stage, always loads of fun! Thank goodness it does not last for 8 years like it does with us humans.
I had not considered he's a teenager now! thank you for reminding me, and providing some hope lol

To harness the prey drive maybe make a flirt pole with a real skin on it and some sort of animal scent like they use to attract animals during hunting season.
Ive avoided flirt pole, as i do want him on sheep and Ducks for practice.


Teach release cues, like drop it, or bring it back to you. It'll work both his mind and body. I will say that if you are going to use him for herding it might not be something you should use since it involves chasing and catching, not moving livestock in the direction you want them to go and may teach him to cause chaos when turned loose on sheep.Ive avoided flirt pole, as i do want him on sheep and Ducks for practice. And till i can barrage my herding trainer with "is this ok, that ok etc" questions, have left flirt pole, watch me.
If you're just teaching him to not jump up on you, and don't want him to hold a sit position, maybe dropping the reward, rather then handing it to him, would work better.
This makes sense. I'll try this.
If you want him to hold the position then you are going to have to teach him that jumping up not only does not get him the treat but also causes the human to completely ignore him and if necessary leave him alone for a few minutes.
For saying hi, he needs to hold position. For when we are out, 4 paws on floor is fine. Different criteria.
Sort, he sits like you ask, so you click then as you give him the treat he jumps up to snatch it.
The glove comment. Eddie's scared of gloves, and fear bites. He's not a food snatcher out of my hand.
First I'd keep the treat in my fist so he has no target to snatch at, and if necessary I'd have on a chainmail glove like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W5DMX3C
I have 2 of these. (In my early days, my presentations were not that great, so used these lol)
so that if he grabbed at my fist it'd get him nothing. If I got down to him and he was still sitting open fist and give treat, if he snatches close fist till he settles, then try again. If he jumps up stand straight and ignore him till he sits then try clicking and treating again. If he keeps jumping go away from him and leave him alone for a couple minutes. He needs to learn that the consequence of jumping causes the things he wants to go away, and that 4 on floor is the best thing ever, treats, attention, play, walks, etc only happen when he is not jumping on his human. That type of training may take awhile but it does work. Yeah, i have regrets of taking on someone's F up. But he was only supposed to be a canine kong for juice. But he needs working to switch off at night:thumbsup:

Shadow my terrier mix had decided that my cousin David should not come over, he wasn't afraid of him just took a dislike to him, and every time he did Shadow would start growling, and hard staring. I'd tell Shadow enough and he'd keep it up so I'd pick him up and put him outside till David left. Shadow's goal in life was to be inside. There came a day when David came over and Shadow started growling then stopped, looked at me, looked at David, laid down and just kept an eye on things, he got to stay inside and was content LOL.
Tee he he - gotta love the 'its yer choice'.

Eddie gets thrown out, for instigating rumpus sessions indoors. He's thrown out a lot lol
2 mins. Then back in. Quietly starts rolling onto his back, and biting his own limbs quietly like, 5 foot away from juice. Yet somehow edging closer to juice, till he then stretches his neck like a bloody giraffe, to nip at her. We seem to go in cycles of throw out. But hey, id only be sat down relaxing without him.
Whilst i ponder, is he backchaining me? did i just get up and interact with him on a behavioural cue of his????


 

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Tee he he - gotta love the 'its yer choice'.

Eddie gets thrown out, for instigating rumpus sessions indoors. He's thrown out a lot lol
2 mins. Then back in. Quietly starts rolling onto his back, and biting his own limbs quietly like, 5 foot away from juice. Yet somehow edging closer to juice, till he then stretches his neck like a bloody giraffe, to nip at her. We seem to go in cycles of throw out. But hey, id only be sat down relaxing without him.
Whilst i ponder, is he backchaining me? did i just get up and interact with him on a behavioural cue of his????



LOL Yeah definitely avoid flirt poles if your going in for herding. I could only imagine the chaos he'd cause in a herd or flock if you let him chase a flirt pole! But, but you let me chase stuff!

Shadow was a true terrier, out for his own interest, and not very bright so I had no worry of him backchaining, his issue was throwing cues and a firm belief that paw was only done in a sitting position.

Zody on the other hand is super smart and very capable of thinking, figuring things out, and training me. He learned, blast him, that I'd give him a treat for seeing a person even if he barked when he saw them. The idea was that he'd learn the people were not a threat, the fear would fade, and he'd no longer bark, I'd know it happened when he looked at me for a treat when he saw a person, that's what the experts claimed. Zody, dear Zody, he never got the memo, the day came when he barked, as in barkbarkbarkbark, looked back at me with bright eyes, and a happy expression, waiting for his treat. Back to the drawing board! Sounds like is much more like Zody, the he's like Shadow.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ive been playing with him, around geese and ducks in paddock by us. And going great. Then realised i had missed a step: when the hatch lings, got on the water! omg we are having to work on this twice daily, as getting passed ducks n geese on water with young, required to walk anywhere currently. Prey + water = 2 of his favorite things lol
He's noticing, and prancing past em, not lunging, 'just' - but a bank prevents further distance. So im keeping reward ratio higher.
He's just brought me the toilet brush. so i'll leave it there
 

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He would not pass temperament test to train with a club. Very different behaviours IPO to working sheep. Tracking works though?
I was thinking more along the lines of how you trained your previous dogs and using the same basic methods and principles to deal with the dog's prey drive among others. Regardless of the skill set required for IPO, herding, tracking, detection, PP etc. impulse control training is always a core exercise to keep the dog's drive regulated and will develop the on/off switch as well as aid in a more clearheaded dog as much as genetics might allow for.

Your "1. Jumping up when excited and nipping you on jump. So i have asked for a sit, he sits (click) then leaps at you as you go to give treat. Impulsive bursting would be a way to describe it.
Another rather suprising example happened on walk this morning: i took too long to throw ball for my other dog- so he jumped on my shoulders and bit my head. Very excitedly.
" is addressed in the beginning of this video...."jumping gets no success"

The second article and video is just a basic version of teaching impulse control but the reason I like Denise Fenzi's observations is she used the dog's uncontrolled and heightened desire ( access to the pool to go swimming ) as the environment to train and reward. https://denisefenzi.com/2013/08/20/impulse-control/

I have this thought that since you have already trained an IPO dog or two, you already know how to modify the undesirable behaviors but just need to juggle the particulars with Eddie regardless of the tasks Eddie will be trained to perform.
 

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Wow - Why?

... I could only imagine the chaos he'd cause in a herd or flock, if you let him chase a flirt pole!
"But, but... you let me chase stuff!..."

...
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I'm confused. // Flirt poles are specifically used to teach, or even install, impulse control on dogs who haven't any.
Why would they cause problems for a dog who's being trained to herd, whether that's sheep or poultry? :confused:

I don't know anyone currently who competes in herding, or i'd ask 'em - but i'd be willing to bet, more than a few trainers use flirt-poles to teach a green dog some self-control, B4 they turn her or him loose on living, breathing livestock.


Does Your Dog Have Self Control Issues? Try a Flirt Pole ...
https://iheartdogs.com/does-your-dog-have-self-control-issues-try-a-flirt-pole/
Feb 25, 2015 -
I know, it sounds like something out of "50 Shades of Gray", but I promise it's not. A flirt pole is a long pole with some type of rope attached to it, & a dog tug-toy at the end. They are amazing for play and exercise, but they are even better for training purposes. For many dogs ...



Any opinions on Flirt Poles? : Dogtraining - Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/1ns8bz/any_opinions_on_flirt_poles/
Oct 5, 2013 - 10 posts - ‎9 authors
My dogs love their flirt poles.
The herding dogs just play, but I have used them with the hyper Jack Russell to really work on his impulse control, which was absolutely non-existent when we adopted him. ...



Does anyone on the forum herd as a sport, or as a dog-job? // Have U used flirt-poles to work on impulse control?
TIA,
- terry

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As far as I know it's because it's different disciplines. I'd see it being good for a hog dog who'd be used to chase and hold a hog while the hunter came, they need to know to release the hog, or stop the chase, but not to herd the hog to a certain location. The hunter is capitalizing on the dogs love of chasing fleeing prey. With herding the dog is not supposed th chase the cattle or sheep, but to keep them moving in the direction the rancher needs them to go, if a dog were to decide to chase the sheep (and some do and can't be broken of it) that's a bad herding dog.

A flirt pole is strictly for chasing as far as I know, I don't see how it could be used to teach the discipline needed in a herding dog, but can see it causing trouble. JMHO
 

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I play alot of games and do alot of exercises to teach impulse control to my current gsd. High prey drive. We have pet mini goats and chickens, so teaching him to control that drive in particular has been one of our main goals, and its worked out well. This may sound backwards, and every dog is different of coarse, but playing games that involve prey drive, and using those games and exercises to teach self control has gone along way towards this. Playing these games is more about the mindset of the dog than anything, at least for what I've done. I havent made my goats and chickens absolutely off limits. He interacts with them and even runs with and chases the little goats, but they've been raised with dogs and are actually playing, not running in fear. He never puts his mouth on any of my other animals. Point being, of coarse every dog is different, but a smart dog can be allowed to satisfy its prey drive on toys and games AND be taught not to take down another animal. This is the 3rd dog we've raised this way with chickens and goats.
What I would however be concerned with is a dog that really wants to go for the kill.....I've had those dogs too, and thats a whole different ballgame. A dog that just wants to chase and harass other animals can be worked with.
The famous old german sheep herder Mansfred Heynes used to select his full time herding dogs as puppies by putting a young sheep in with a litter of gsd puppies to see which ones had the most intense interest ( highest prey drive ) in the lamb. He said that very high prey drive was one of the most important things for a herding dog to have. He also did schutzund with his full time professional herding dogs if that says anything......
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have a flirt pole. Which i have used to increase prey drive with IPO. To b honest, i move quickly onto tug then remain using balls or juices absolute fave reward - tug bites n play. As Eddie has already shown impulse control with ducks on land (still working on duck in water) it seems not too big a leap that he'll b able to differentiate between tug n sheep. So when i get home ill dig it out n give him a go! I have hesitated due to not being sure how compatable it would b. I have emailed trainer. But we wont meet up till march to start.and slow responder due to being a herder first/trainer 2nd. I have learnt she is keeping jacobs sheep. I will be keeping dropers which are more difficult to herd apparently. But i want meat not fleece. Maybe some nice slower geese can be used to up skill him till hes ready. As a child, parents dogs got started on sheep from 6 weeks. What ive been reading up is the trainer starts dogs at 1yr. Things are going to b different for sure. Gonna flirt his ass off tonight.
 

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Increasing prey drive is debatable as most dogs come equipped with all of their drives from day one. Some can be promoted and others can be developed and honed as the dog matures such as fight drive. But, if an elevated drive doesn't exist genetically, you'll only get so far with that drive regardless of all the flirt poling and other inducements one might try. The usual "problem" is the dog has too much prey drive for the owner who is not wanting any elevated drives in their dog.

The obvious goal is to regulate the dog when it is in drive mode through impulse control training and other taught obedience skills. Once that is accomplished, you use controlled and increasing anticipation as the tool to enhance the drive but more importantly creating the connection of the pending release as the reward, as the dog gets to indulge in it's natural desires. It's all regulated by the handler. Nothing is gained by having a dog mindlessly chasing a fur tail at the end of a line on a flirt pole unless one can command the dog to instantly cease the pursuit at any given moment.
@Sthelena makes a good point and it isn't backwards at all " This may sound backwards, and every dog is different of coarse, but playing games that involve prey drive, and using those games and exercises to teach self control has gone along way towards this. Playing these games is more about the mindset of the dog than anything, at least for what I've done."
 
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