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Dog aggression between dogs living in the same home is an interesting topic for a number of reasons. The main one has to be the question “Why would two dogs who have lived together, often for many years, suddenly attack each other?”


Let’s explore: Why are my dogs fighting?

Now I should mention here that I am not talking about little squabbles, growls and minor disagreements. This sort of behavior is common place and usually over in a matter of seconds with absolutely no damage or injuries to speak of. Over the years you become used to hearing loud eruptions of noise in another room, and sprint to the scene of the crime only to find all the dogs lying around quite happily looking at you as if to say “What’s the problem? No drama’s, we’ve sorted it out.”

Serious fighting

The serious fighting that I am talking about is very different – where the dogs are out to injure, dominate or hurt the other dog. It leads to puncture wounds, visits to the vet and can end up very serious indeed. In this situation it is clear that the dogs are not scared of each other, like they may be of an unknown dog that happens to pass by the property. And after a fight the dogs may be wary and display some signs of fear for one another, which generally subsides until the next flare up. But this behavior still doesn’t explain why after years of playing together they have suddenly become arch-enemies.

Triggers are not the key

Even though there may be an obvious trigger that has set the dogs off, do not be fooled into thinking this is the cause of the problem. A bone, a ball, trying to receive pats or cuddles from an owner, or increased stressed levels in a home can all add to the chance of dogs fighting – but it’s not the cause. The real long-term solution does not lie in the trigger.

Power of the pack

To understand a dog you need to recognize the power of the pack and the need to have strong pack leaders. When they are not present the dogs will do their best to fill the vacant position. With two dogs present and often only one position available it is often a case that they will simply fight it out. Of course every situation is different in the details, but in a nutshell, this is how the dogs see it and the solution is no different. You need to become the pack leader. The solution is that simple.

Other factors have an impact

There are lots of other factors and details surrounding every situation. The personalities, characters, sex, age, size, breed, of the dogs, everything comes into it. And sometimes it can play quite a big part in the pack dynamics. For example, a lady who has two male dogs is far more likely to struggle with fighting between them compared to a couple who have a neutered male and female. Why? Because in the pack there is an alpha male and an alpha female, and if these two humans have assumed both these roles then there is nothing to fight for. No positions vacant!

Become the pack leader

Understanding your dog is not rocket science, but there are some very simple but ESSENTIAL rules that you must follow. Whilst clickers and cheese can work for dog training nothing will replace understanding your dogs psychology.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

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hoo-boy!...

...pack dynamics.

... a lady who has two male dogs is far more likely to struggle with fighting between them compared to a couple who have a neutered male and female. Why?

Because in the pack[,] there is an alpha male and an alpha female, and if these two humans have assumed both these roles then there is nothing to fight for. No positions vacant!

Become the pack leader

...for dog training[,] nothing will replace understanding your dog[']s psychology.
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:confused: really?
Have U been reading Jack London again?!

Where are these mysterious "packs"? - U don't find them among feral or village dogs, around the world - free-roaming, intact, unowned, do-anything-they-want-to-do, whenever-they-want-to-do-it, free of human interference... at least, aside from being hit by cars, chased out of gardens, or shouted off or stoned when they rip into bagged garbage. :rolleyes:
Pariah dogs move as individuals, not as 'packs' - they show up en masse to events that occur regularly where food is in the offing, as in the nightly disposal of garbage from restaurant kitchens as the business closes, but they don't have a fixed hierarchy when they dive into the dumpster to eat.
If there's enuf room, they all spread out & just start eating - no ceremony, no status spats.
Any one dog might have a buddy, sometimes a sibling, who frequently shows up to keep company with them, but they're not joined at the hip - the 2 are friends, not a Boss & Henchman, & they may go separate ways for days or weeks, then reunite.

I think U've wandered into the wrong venue, looking for devotees of the Dawg Wrassler. :p
Cesar Millan is not an idol, here - he was an undocumented immigrant who arrived in his late-teens, took day jobs on construction & clean-up crews, standing on street corners hoping to be hired among a bunch of other men as pick-up trucks pulled up & the drivers scrutinized the crowd, & then found some steady employment, sweeping out & cleaning at a dog salon.
The female owners discovered that he didn't mind being bitten as much as they did, so when a dog was scared or hard to handle, they'd ask HIM to control that dog.
The very beginning of his glorious career - struggling to restrain dogs who didn't want to stay in the bathtub, or on the grooming table, or have their claws cut. // The wife of a rock star was a client at the salon; she was having trouble with her dogs, & the owners referred her to Cesar.
His 1st paying client couldn't understand him, & hired a vocal coach to get rid of his impenetrable accent. // She then referred him to HER friends, who referred him to THEIR friends, & a dog-trainer was shaped out of a handyman.

There's no instinct involved in training; teaching cued behaviors is a skill, & anyone with the desire to learn it, can. It's not an inborn mystery, nor is it taught by watching semi-feral dogs roaming on a Mexican ranch, nor is it a family heirloom handed down by one's revered grandsire.
If U are of average intelligence & reasonably co-ordinated, U can teach a dog cued behaviors.

Behavior modification - which is what YOU are talking about, altering unwanted behavior - takes a bit more chops, but no "pack theory" is needed. It's not merely superfluous - it's poppycock. :D

I've had at least 6 or 7 past clients whose dog was seriously dog-aggro or human-aggro, & they managed to reshape their own dogs' dangerous behavior with one in-person consult with me, an outline of B-Mod tailored to them & their dog, & the book 'Click to Calm' as their DIY manual - a few of them needed a phone-call or e-mail along the way, when something came up that they didn't know how to handle, but 99% of it was bog-standard DS/CC, DeSensitize & Counter-Condition... which Mr Millan has apparently never heard of, & that might explain why he was bitten THREE TIMES by THREE different dogs in a single M-F week, back when he only had a non-prime-time, 20-minutes-not-counting-commercials, TV-spot. :rofl:
If a novice owner with a book of recipes for B-Mod can reshape the behavior of an adult adopted dog who's bitten 3 ppl with level-3 bites on the Dunbar scale, nobody needs "instinct" to do B-Mod, nor do they need Mr Millan's blend of wolf-pack misinformation & Hollywood tinsel.

in my under-informed opinion & IME,
- terry

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I'm guessing this is a troll account. Dosnt join in on conversations, only 2 posts and there both lecture posts. Eh glade I didn't waist my time reading all of what op posted lol
 

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I'm mixed here. I took in several adult feral cats and kitten strays feeling sorry for them in December one year knowing certainly they would die from pneumonia or other health issues. My amazing mom had already taken in several stray kittens that I helped her raise and train.
So these beautiful adults would have died without my taking them on. I also needed to be the alpha in some situations to housebreak and train them on just basic ways. Would do it again of needed.

Call it what you will. Dog was never run away from any animal. thanks
 

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I always thought Cesar Millan was quite a success story regardless whether or not I subscribe to his style of training. I pick and choose from what he has to offer and I rather like his idea of calm and assertive energy coming from the human. Also, what in the world does this "he was an undocumented immigrant who arrived in his late-teens" have to do with the price of tea in China ?

I agree with @RichardPeter on this thought " dogs will do their best to fill the vacant position". I've found Bob to be similar to all my other dogs, when Bob relies on me, Bob is happiest.
 

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'cuz his education - or lack of it - is directly related to his origins.

I always thought Cesar Millan was quite a success story ... whether or not I subscribe to his style of training.
I pick and choose from what he has to offer and I rather like his idea of calm and assertive energy coming from the human.

...what in the world does this "he was an undocumented immigrant who arrived in his late-teens" have to do with the price of tea in China?
...
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simply that he was a young man who only finished 9th grade in a rural Mexican school, & a few years later, when he wanted a better life, he crossed the border.
:shrug: Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not sneering at his desire for a better life; I personally know plenty of immigrants who came here for exactly those reasons - the U-S is a nation of immigrants, & the only NATIVE ppl here are obviously, Native Americans.
Everyone else is either an immigrant, or a descendant of immigrants - I'm Irish-American; my great-grandmother arrived as an orphan at 17 with 5 younger siblings, in a coffin-ship.
Her parents were tenant farmers; the entire family was evicted by the Enclosure Act during the Great Famine - that was the Irish version of the Holocaust; over million Irish died in Ireland, many dying on roadsides with their lips stained green from trying to eat grass, to stop the pain in their bellies, while absentee English landlords continued to harvest & sell grain ABROAD, & argued about how much veg to put in the charity-soup in Parliament.
Her father died of disease while they were on the road, probably of typhus; her mother died a few weeks later of starvation, as she gave what little food they had to the younger children, & she made her eldest promise that she'd go to America, & take them all, before they starved to death in Ireland.
By the time she walked from N Ireland to West Ireland to take ship, she had only enuf money for herself & the 2 eldest; the 3 young boys were smuggled aboard & hidden in cargo, & weren't discovered until the ship was 2-weeks out. She & the older girls were made to work their passage, to cover the transport of the 3 youngest.
They worked in the kitchen, emptied slop buckets, washed dirty linens from the many sick, & were general dogsbodies for anything that was hard or dirty.
So arriving in the U-S with nothing but themselves is hardly a new story, to me.

I included it BECAUSE so many CM/DW fans think he must have an educational background that includes dogs - they don't know, but reasonably presume, that he's had at least some college, or at least behavioral-psych in high school. They're wrong. :shrug: He has no academic credits in any science, beyond what little they covered in his grade-school.

This is pertinent b/c at least 80% of the stuff that Mr Millan says is either extracted from the only book on dog-training he's ever read - written by Koehler, in the 1960s - or else it's a long-told myth, like the "wolf pack / Alpha" fiction, or it's a complete invention.
Very few things he says are factual, with data to support them.

That's why his background is relevant - not b/c I'm dissing illegal immigrants, but b/c his grandiose claim to be a "dog psychologist" is just snake-oil, no different from any 1890 to 1930 huckster, selling Dr Goode's miracle cure from a buckboard wagon. :rolleyes:

I only wish that Nat'l Geo had stuck to their science, & chosen a humane trainer with actual credentials to spotlight - not a photogenic enthusiast with some good taglines, & a Colgate smile, as a TV-host. :eyeroll:
Imagine if they'd chosen Dunbar, or Miller, or Donaldson, or Steve White. We'd be having a completely different conversation, as a national dog-owning culture, & with prospective clients...
I wouldn't have to listen to endless repetitions of 'exercise, discipline, affection', either. :happydance:

- terry

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huh?

I'm mixed here.

I took in several adult feral cats & stray kittens, feeling sorry for them in December one year, knowing certainly they'd die from pneumonia or other health issues. My amazing mom had already taken in several stray kittens that I helped her raise and train.

So these beautiful adult [cats] would have died without my taking them on. I also needed to be the alpha in some situations to housebreak & train them on just basic ways. Would do it again of needed.

...
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Now i'm totally confused. :confused: Cats don't live in packs - they are more solitary than social, when they live *outside* a human household. They tolerate other cats, to a degree - they move thru & share space by time-sharing it, one cat being there at certain times of day, another cat at other times.
Sisters often share kitten-rearing, even when feral, b/c the mom needs to hunt for food for herself as well as nurse her litter, & other cats are an actual threat to her kittens' lives - toms in particular will kill an entire litter, often one they sired. But other queens have been known to kill another's kittens, too.
So sharing nest duties means kittens are more likely to survive their most vulnerable period.

But no one has ever claimed that cats are a 'pack' in the sense of co-operative hunting & feeding on large game!
Nor has anyone ever said housecats live in hierarchies; cats are much more territorial than 99% of dogs, are insanely aggressive when they are angry or frightened, but they don't "dominate" one another & form dominant / submissive pair bonds.
Yes, one cat can & will torment another cat in the household, but that's pure feline aggro, not 'seeking dominance over access to scarce resources'. :p

Also, mother cats do not "housetrain" their kittens - like pups, kittens' butts are stimulated by mom's tongue as neonates, & she eats their waste; when they are old-enuf to leave the nest, they avoid soiling where they sleep instinctively.
Mom-cats don't smack their kittens for voiding in the wrong place, any more than mom-dogs do. :D If mom-cat uses a litter box indoors, the kittens will, too, primarily b/c of the scent of urine & feces; if mom-cat sprays the sofa & poops on the carpet, the kittens may, too.
Odor is extremely important to cats & their behavior [which is why the current fad for a different Glade plug-in stink-bomb in every room is causing so much feline hardship].

- terry

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I took in several adult male stray or feral unneutered cats, neutered them and incorporated them into my household of tame loving adult male and female cats. I've had multiple cats my whole life and guess what cats who have to share a city apartment and can't go outside or get away from each other do form relationships and bonds and sometimes fight and have a hierarchy of who gets to the food and kitty litter first, no matter how many kitty litter boxes you have. I had seven cats for five years in a large three bedroom apartment when my mom died suddenly and I had to take her adult cats in as well as my own. There was a lot of drama introducing them.
Yes I became the alpha to make sure everyone ate and isolated the bullies as punishment for tormenting the shy cats. They had to learn that stalking and preventing other cats from eating, drinking or using the kitty litter was completely unacceptable and would never be tolerated or they'd lose their own food and freedom privileges for a long time. Nice loving words and cuddles and treats didn't cut it, the three dominant males were absolutely relentless in torturing the two most passive cats. One they never messed with, she was eighteen pounds and if they pissed her off, one cuff would send them flying and shaking their heads to clear it lol, so I didn't have to worry about her. My feral cat handled two of the bullies fine and avoided the third. But the two wimps needed defending or just hid so I had to step in.
So unless you've had multiple cats in an apartment for years you really can't preach cat behavior to me. I've had cats much longer than I've had dogs, and way more cats. I speak cat much more fluently than I do dog. I've lived with multiple cats for way over twenty years and know their apartment dynamics very well, quite different from feral outside dynamics. I've tamed many feral kittens and adult feral cats, which all the shelter experts say is impossible. Have you done any of that??? How many cats have you owned? Have you personally acclimated adult cats successfully in an apartment? Are you fluent in cat?
I've seen behaviorists and vets with tons of education be completely wrong about my animals. I have two master's degree and education is not really worth that much other than opening doors for jobs. The danger with being very educated as the vets and behaviorist proved is it can make a person feel close minded and not open to new information or to an owner who has valid experiences and observations.
I'm trained to observe and notice behavior so that's what I do. I don't give a darn if it fits into what a vet, expert or behaviorist thinks should fit into what they've learned. Cesar has some good valid points with what he says on his show, like it or not, I watched enough of it to decide that for myself. Calm confident assertive energy will help you handle and train any animal, horse, cat, dog. Much better than getting hysterical and emotional or losing your temper. I can reward my dog with treats and praise til the cows come home in a huge field he's not going to come back to me if loose. On a long line he just runs off so fast he pulls the line until he physically hurts my hands and I have to let go. The former director of the mspca called him the most passive aggressive dog he'd ever seen who has no respect at all for humans. Sometimes that requires dominance. Not abuse but he can't always rule everything and has to follow some rules for safety. So do my cats.
Tell me about training cats when you've had seven in a city apartment. Knowing some basic info about ferals doesn't make anyone a cat expert. I've had cats my whole life. Stick to dogs.
 

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Actually you're wrong about their outside lives too. The reason I took on three adukt feral cats was one was a stray so I just pushed his butt into a carrier while he was eating and gave him to my mom. The other two were a bonded pair that I wound up keeping for life. One was a four and a half year old abused stray that had cigarette burns on his nose and was coughing and sneezing so I wanted to catch him because I knew he wouldn't last through winter sick. He'd befriended a truly feral two year old cat and they ysed to cuddle outside together on an old chair and you never saw one without the other they were always close together. I caught the feral one by accident in a trap, the sick abused one was too wary and I couldn't catch him until I caught his buddy. The feral one did all the feral behaviors of racing around and trying to climb the walls and jump out the windows. He settled down once I caught his friend. They used to sleep on too of each other snuggled close with no boundaries like kittens. Did that their whole lives. I wasn't able to tame the feral cat until his buddy died from cancer, liver cancer, years later. Him and the ferals female cat soulmate died one month apart after living ten years together and he was so devastated I thought he'd die of a broken heart.
I'll never forget his cry of distress and pain when I brought home the empty carrier from the vet hospital after his beloved girlfriend had stayed five days trying to fight off a major infection but I finally had to euthanize her. He saw me come on with the carrier of taken her away in so sick days before and raced to the door hoping to see his beloved. When he saw the carrier was empty he seemed to understand that she wasn't going to come home and he gave this anguished cry as if he'd been kicked and just deflated.
All the other cats stopped eating and became clingy and upset. They also all started sneezing. Devastated that their queen of the house was gone, my friends who came over noticed the whole place became a place of grieving.
Cats definitely bond and form relationships when they're stuck living in close quarters.
My two remaining cats now are best buddies and even finally love the dog. Do you think they'd choose to be that close together otherwise? I walked in on them there and they looked very cute and innocent, couldn't help wondering what they were planning lol. I woke up the other day and the cream tabby was sleeping next to the dog with his paw on the dog's head. Both next to me.
No this wouldn't happen in the wild and yes I actively encouraged them getting along and being brothers.
 

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Panic & hysterics are never "helpful".

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@Shadowmom ,
who ever suggested that "getting hysterical" would help anyone handle an aggressive, frightened, or unco-operative animal? :confused:
Of COURSE staying calm helps - just as it does in any emergency or stressful situation. If i'm trying to help my client during a choking episode, & i freak out & start screaming, or just run from the room, s/he could die - if i can't explain what's happening to a 911 operator, & i'm the one in medical crisis, alone, i'm in very serious trouble.

"Keep calm & carry on" is not exactly rocket surgery - & trying to avoid emotional responses is also pretty basic. I'm sure Captain Obvious would agree that believing my dogs are conspiring against me won't help me deal with their problem behaviors. :rofl: Nor will screaming at them, lecturing them, or throwing things in a tantrum. :ponder:

As i said before: anything CM/DW says that's factual is something he got from someone else, & it's typically hoary with age. That doesn't make it untrue! - but it's not "his", & it's already well-known.

A lot of what he says [& does] is original to him, & WRONG - flat-out, plain old wrong.
Such as flooding a dog-reactive dog, then hanging them to control the [predictable, inevitable] reaction; doesn't help.
Or claiming that holding up a dog's tail will "make them more confident" [shy-of-strangers, timid F Viszla, whose tail he held up with the wrist-loop like a crane hoisting a train-car, when they were on the street; she also resource-guarded, & bit him when he repeatedly harassed her over her favorite toy, a soft-stuffed "burger"].

cheers,
- terry

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Lol if my cats ate fighting or chewing on electric cords or something dangerous or trying to drink out of my cups (I HATE that!!!) And I say no they ignore me. Clapping hands or noises, ignore. If I toss a pillow or rolled up pair of socks at them works like a charm. Not throwing things in a fit of rage and never anything that would hurt them but enough to stop the defiant little creeps from getting electrocuted or hurting each other. Not that they ever do, for all their fights they never have a mark or even a bloody nose.
The chewing plugged in ords worries me though.
And if he's saying factual correct stuff, who cares where he got it from? People are still learning good things in general. Behaviorists and trainers aren't always reinventing the wheel either.
 

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simply that he was a young man who only finished 9th grade in a rural Mexican school, & a few years later, when he wanted a better life, he crossed the border.
:shrug: Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not sneering at his desire for a better life; I personally know plenty of immigrants who came here for exactly those reasons - the U-S is a nation of immigrants, & the only NATIVE ppl here are obviously, Native Americans.
Everyone else is either an immigrant, or a descendant of immigrants - I'm Irish-American; my great-grandmother arrived as an orphan at 17 with 5 younger siblings, in a coffin-ship.
Her parents were tenant farmers; the entire family was evicted by the Enclosure Act during the Great Famine - that was the Irish version of the Holocaust; over million Irish died in Ireland, many dying on roadsides with their lips stained green from trying to eat grass, to stop the pain in their bellies, while absentee English landlords continued to harvest & sell grain ABROAD, & argued about how much veg to put in the charity-soup in Parliament.
Her father died of disease while they were on the road, probably of typhus; her mother died a few weeks later of starvation, as she gave what little food they had to the younger children, & she made her eldest promise that she'd go to America, & take them all, before they starved to death in Ireland.
By the time she walked from N Ireland to West Ireland to take ship, she had only enuf money for herself & the 2 eldest; the 3 young boys were smuggled aboard & hidden in cargo, & weren't discovered until the ship was 2-weeks out. She & the older girls were made to work their passage, to cover the transport of the 3 youngest.
They worked in the kitchen, emptied slop buckets, washed dirty linens from the many sick, & were general dogsbodies for anything that was hard or dirty.
So arriving in the U-S with nothing but themselves is hardly a new story, to me.

I included it BECAUSE so many CM/DW fans think he must have an educational background that includes dogs - they don't know, but reasonably presume, that he's had at least some college, or at least behavioral-psych in high school. They're wrong. :shrug: He has no academic credits in any science, beyond what little they covered in his grade-school.

This is pertinent b/c at least 80% of the stuff that Mr Millan says is either extracted from the only book on dog-training he's ever read - written by Koehler, in the 1960s - or else it's a long-told myth, like the "wolf pack / Alpha" fiction, or it's a complete invention.
Very few things he says are factual, with data to support them.

That's why his background is relevant - not b/c I'm dissing illegal immigrants, but b/c his grandiose claim to be a "dog psychologist" is just snake-oil, no different from any 1890 to 1930 huckster, selling Dr Goode's miracle cure from a buckboard wagon. :rolleyes:

I only wish that Nat'l Geo had stuck to their science, & chosen a humane trainer with actual credentials to spotlight - not a photogenic enthusiast with some good taglines, & a Colgate smile, as a TV-host. :eyeroll:
Imagine if they'd chosen Dunbar, or Miller, or Donaldson, or Steve White. We'd be having a completely different conversation, as a national dog-owning culture, & with prospective clients...
I wouldn't have to listen to endless repetitions of 'exercise, discipline, affection', either. :happydance:

- terry

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I appreciate your lengthy response and even though you misstate certain facts about Cesar Millan and his history, I still find no apparent reason for the inclusion of Millan's "undocumented immigrant" comment as it has nothing to do with his ability or lack of as a dog trainer. I think it would just be easier for you to just say you detest him instead of calling him an illegal amongst other putdowns. I would also suggest that most anyone who knows just a little bit about Millan, knows his past and his illegal entrance into the USA at 21 years of age ( not late teens as you might have accidently posted ). Much of his early days working with dogs, above and beyond the classic dog grooming story, you also missed, you can discover this if you choose. A couple of things you might be interested to know, Millan actually was awarded a couple of honorary degrees, one was a master's degree from Bergin University of Canine Studies and the other made him the third American to receive an honorary diploma from Chulalongkorn University, in Bangkok Thailand. Millan was honored for his humanitarian services to rescue, rehabilitate and re-home abandoned and abused dogs around the world.

Now, another dog trainer/psych/behavorist etc. Victoria Stillwell has a degree in theatre and was just a "dog walker" like Millan with no formal education in dog behavior sciences as far as I know but I could be wrong. The point is, should I hold Stillwell's lack of in the same light as you posted about Millan" is just snake-oil, no different from any 1890 to 1930 huckster, selling Dr Goode's miracle cure from a buckboard wagon." ? Well, I guess I am different than you because I don't think that way and summarily dismiss anyone and everything like what you have done earlier with Millan. As I said in my first post, I pick and choose and just because Millan might use controversial tactics does not mean everything he professes is bad, wrong or old school. I enjoy reading and learning about most all popular dog trainers/behaviorists/psych and then discount certain approaches which just aren't for me such as feeling like I need to alpha roll Bob or physically punish Bob or put Bob in a timeout away from me, I just don't agree with those approaches for the dogs I have had. I pick and choose and keep an open mind because every dog I have ever had was not a carbon copy of each other. What works for one might not work for the other and most every dog trainer I have ever studied has something of value in their application but not one has ever impressed me as being a 100%er in my estimation.

I'll give you a wonderful example. I read some of your posts about the benefits of OTC calmatives and personally I am on the fence BUT I just watched a video of Millan using them and stating they have their benefit at times. I doubt you knew this but should I view your opinion on the efficacy of OTC calmatives as "snake oil" because Millan uses them and that is your opinion of him?

I cannot stress enough the importance of picking and choosing training methods when it comes to our dogs and I doubt I will ever discount any somewhat famous dog trainer 100% like you have because they wouldn't have reached the stature they have by being incompetent.

Textbooks are great but there also is much wisdom found from experience and keeping an open mind.
 

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Nope, unfortunately not.

...
And if [Cesar Millan is] saying factual correct stuff, who cares where he got it from?
People are still learning good things in general [as they watch him].
Behaviorists and trainers aren't always reinventing the wheel either.
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The "factual correct" stuff is the tiny fraction - the overwhelming majority is both wrong, & often dangerous.
So, no - the APO who watches isn't healthily imbibing helpful facts, as they painlessly enjoy entertainment. :eek:

There's a reason they run that disclaimer at the bottom of the TV-screen & include an audio voice-over - his pet lawyers are protecting him from getting his butt sued into bankruptcy, when some poor misguided APO follows his suggestions & gets badly hurt. :eek:

Every guest on his show signs a gag agreement not to talk about it - however, the various USA-apdt trainers in SoCal who picked up the pieces after his guests were left trying to live with their dogs, post-CM/DW-consultation, signed no such agreements.
Many of the "guest" dogs who showed aggression or reactivity GOT WORSE after their "fix" in front of the cameras, & several owners who tried to do as he had both told them & showed them to do, went to the hospital for stitches after they returned home, & attempted to follow his instructions.
Patti LaBelle gave up her Boerbel - she tried to "correct" him as instructed with a collar jerk, & he came right up the leash & ripped her arm, badly - a never-before level of aggression.
The Jindo he terrorized was given up to an adoption facility - so was the Malemute that he infamously hung on camera.

The disclaimer is there b/c DOING WHAT HE DOES OR SAYS can get U hurt - badly.
Pos-R training, in strong contrast, can be done by anyone over 7-YO who can grasp the essentials.
Total novices who volunteer at an Open Paw shelter are training dogs in 45-mins, with an initial intro.
Simple, safe, humane, it works, & it doesn't have side-effects. :thumbsup:

Fallout from highly-confrontational & aversive training methods, such as those shown on TV by Mr Millan, Brad Prattison [Canada, "end of my leash", briefly run on Animal Planet before viewers angrily voted it off], & Dog Borstal in the U.K., is not merely common, but virtually guaranteed.

"If we can teach a killer whale to pee in a cup, you can train your dog without the use of punishment."
- Ted Turner, Seaworld's head trainer, & an actual academically-credentialed behaviorist.

Every species that research has attempted to train using rewards HAS LEARNED successfully; if a flatworm & an amoeba can learn to solve a maze for food, surely a dog - with not only a spinal cord, but an actual brain - can learn?
As can cats. :D

If we can teach wild animals…. | Stale Cheerios


http://www.dogforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=221825&stc=1&d=1514848884

Happy training,
- terry

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Otc calmatives did absolutely nothing to help my originally feral cat who I tamed when he became suddenly aggressive after his second ear canal surgery left him completely deaf. He had cancer in his ears so removing both his ear canal which were very infected, painful and filled with constantly bleeding tumors became necessary. He still had some hearing because after the second surgery he felt much better but was suddenly completely deaf and freaked and started attacking the other cats, even when they were just sleeping so completely unprovoked. If I tried to intervene or stop him he'd bite and cuff even me and he was then very bonded to me. That's how freaked out he was by losing his hearing. The calming pheromes did nothing.
Whenever he attacked anyone I would gently put him on the floor and off his prized spot on the bed. If he did it again of put him on the bathroom where his diabetic food was anyway and give him a break from the others. If he meowed to come out I'd let him back out. That worked. I guess it was timeouts but I didn't want him next to my face on my bed attacking sleeping cats or me. I was never angry and always reassuring with him as o could imagine how scared he must have been losing his hearing suddenly. His sight was already bad from cataracts. He also normally was very bonded to and slept cuddled close to the cat he kept attacking so I know he was stressed. The other cat is bigger and fought back pretty hard, always been the alpha cat and couldn't care less if he was sick or not so he didn't attack him too many times, tried a couple of times and then backed down from that cat as he was younger and stronger.
But Bob has an excellent post. I've liked a lot of what I saw in Cesar's videos. I don't agree 100 percent with any one trainer. My family was all immigrants, some had the benefits of education and some didn't. That doesn't make a person any better or worse than anyone else. Close minded snobs and hypocrites and people who think they can't learn from anyone else are the worst in my opinion. Seems like all the trainers that feel such a need to bash Cesar just make themselves look bad. It's unprofessional and I wouldn't go to a trainer who bashes others. Maybe they feel threatened by him. No one is all bad. You don't have to use all tactics of anyone.
They use timeouts for kids in schools and rewards and privileges and take away things so punishment and negative reinforcement. Can't be that abusive. Timeouts work to stop my one dog aggressive cat from attacking and hurting my dog. This cat is a Velcro cat and wants my constant company. Short timeouts remind him to not torture the poor dog. Now they're buddies.
 

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I'm not saying not to be positive as much as possible. Cesar was getting problem dogs that no one else could help. Apples and oranges. I can stuff my dog full of his favorite bacon treats, make squeaky sounds like an idiot, throw squeaky toys at him, praise all I want. For him loose in a huge new field he's not going to come back when I call until he feels like it. Other people have other issues that positive training may not help. When two dogs are seriously fighting and trying to kill each other, praising them and clicking a clicker and throwing treats isn't going to cut it. Extreme problems can call for extreme interventions. That's my understanding of what the show was about. Some dogs he helped and maybe some couldn't be helped, but neither could the positive trainers.
As Bob said you're still out of line for insulting his immigration and education just because you don't like some of his methods.
 

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"threatened"...? How?

... Seems like all the trainers that feel such a need to bash Cesar just make themselves look bad.
It's unprofessional and I wouldn't go to a trainer who bashes others. Maybe they feel threatened by him. No one is all bad. You don't have to use all tactics of anyone.
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Pointing out that the Emperor is naked isn't "bashing". :p As for "feeling threatened", i doubt very much that Nick Dodman, DVM / DACVB, feels threatened by CM/DW. :rofl:
He's the one who said, in 2008 IIRC, that Cesar Millan had set dog-training "back by 20 years".

Nicholas H. Dodman - Faculty Profile - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University

Faculty in Department of Clinical Sciences | Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University

The American Humane Assoc, the folks who put the "no animals were harmed..." assurance on films & who monitor movie sets, TV shows, & theatrical performances with animal or child actors, also famously blasted CM/DW in a press release. How would he "threaten" them?

Patricia McConnell -
Cesar Millan and Merial

QUOTE from Trisha -
"I’m happy to say that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists and several CAABs (Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists) have written Merial to complain.
The paragraph below is an excerpt from a letter by CAAB Suzanne Hetts, Ph.D."

'Scientific research about how animals learn, about canid social behavior, and social relationships between dogs and humans, does not support Mr. Millan’s training methods or his view of those relationships…
This marketing campaign makes it clear that Merial did not do their homework when it comes to the science of animal behavior. Instead of relying on the academically trained, scientific community of veterinary and applied animal behaviorists or even certified dog trainers, you instead turned to a media personality.
Because you clearly don’t care about science when it comes to animal behavior and training, I now wonder what other scientific information you might choose to ignore in marketing and product development.'


full disclosure:
I'm a subscriber to BEN, Hetts' Behavior Education Network. :D

further statement from Trisha, QUOTE,
"...I am deeply at odds with his perspective that behavioral problems are primarily caused by 'dominance' issues, and that owners need to be physically forceful to achieve 'leadership'.
I do appreciate that he has switched a bit from 'dominance' to 'leadership'… although I have no doubt that he and I define it differently, & I worry that his use of it will undermine its value."


Ms McConnell just recently retired from a very-successful 30-plus year career as a behaviorist [CAAB] with a global reputation for both knowledge & effective teaching; she's hardly "threatened" by CM/DW.

These organizations have all formally defined the techniques, as shown & seen on Mr Millan's TV programs, as "cruel and inhumane":
– Humane Society of the United States
– ASPCA, headquartered in NY, NY.
– American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
– American Humane Association
– Association of Professional Dog Trainers [U-S]

There are more - but U get the gist, I'm sure. These aren't trainers who see him as a competitor; they're professionals in the fields of animal welfare, & animal behavior.

I'll reiterate: the vast majority of what CM/DW shows, says, or suggests is both factually wrong, & often dangerous.
And the "average viewer" has no idea how to sort the few grains of fact from the tons of chaff being flung at them.

- terry

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I'll reiterate: the vast majority of what CM/DW shows, says, or suggests is both factually wrong, & often dangerous.
And the "average viewer" has no idea how to sort the few grains of fact from the tons of chaff being flung at them.

- terry

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But most importantly, what are the results you have achieved with your very own dogs rather than a litany of links from others? The "tons of chaff" are from others rather than your very own and very personal results. We can all suggest what "they" say but I'd so much rather hear what you say from personal experiences instead of unrecognized, unrealized and yet to be applied methods. This forum is wonderful because it gives people the opportunity to learn from other's REAL LIFE successes and failures instead of a bunch of mumbo jumbo textbook baloney. You call others " average viewer" and quite honestly that is as disparaging as calling Millan the names you have already chosen. I appreciate your passion for dog training but what in your mind makes you so much better than the rest of us ??
 

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:confused: really?
Have U been reading Jack London again?!

Where are these mysterious "packs"? - U don't find them among feral or village dogs, around the world - free-roaming, intact, unowned, do-anything-they-want-to-do, whenever-they-want-to-do-it, free of human interference... at least, aside from being hit by cars, chased out of gardens, or shouted off or stoned when they rip into bagged garbage. :rolleyes:
Pariah dogs move as individuals, not as 'packs' - they show up en masse to events that occur regularly where food is in the offing, as in the nightly disposal of garbage from restaurant kitchens as the business closes, but they don't have a fixed hierarchy when they dive into the dumpster to eat.
If there's enuf room, they all spread out & just start eating - no ceremony, no status spats.
Any one dog might have a buddy, sometimes a sibling, who frequently shows up to keep company with them, but they're not joined at the hip - the 2 are friends, not a Boss & Henchman, & they may go separate ways for days or weeks, then reunite.

I think U've wandered into the wrong venue, looking for devotees of the Dawg Wrassler. :p
Cesar Millan is not an idol, here - he was an undocumented immigrant who arrived in his late-teens, took day jobs on construction & clean-up crews, standing on street corners hoping to be hired among a bunch of other men as pick-up trucks pulled up & the drivers scrutinized the crowd, & then found some steady employment, sweeping out & cleaning at a dog salon.
The female owners discovered that he didn't mind being bitten as much as they did, so when a dog was scared or hard to handle, they'd ask HIM to control that dog.
The very beginning of his glorious career - struggling to restrain dogs who didn't want to stay in the bathtub, or on the grooming table, or have their claws cut. // The wife of a rock star was a client at the salon; she was having trouble with her dogs, & the owners referred her to Cesar.
His 1st paying client couldn't understand him, & hired a vocal coach to get rid of his impenetrable accent. // She then referred him to HER friends, who referred him to THEIR friends, & a dog-trainer was shaped out of a handyman.

There's no instinct involved in training; teaching cued behaviors is a skill, & anyone with the desire to learn it, can. It's not an inborn mystery, nor is it taught by watching semi-feral dogs roaming on a Mexican ranch, nor is it a family heirloom handed down by one's revered grandsire.
If U are of average intelligence & reasonably co-ordinated, U can teach a dog cued behaviors.

Behavior modification - which is what YOU are talking about, altering unwanted behavior - takes a bit more chops, but no "pack theory" is needed. It's not merely superfluous - it's poppycock. :D

I've had at least 6 or 7 past clients whose dog was seriously dog-aggro or human-aggro, & they managed to reshape their own dogs' dangerous behavior with one in-person consult with me, an outline of B-Mod tailored to them & their dog, & the book 'Click to Calm' as their DIY manual - a few of them needed a phone-call or e-mail along the way, when something came up that they didn't know how to handle, but 99% of it was bog-standard DS/CC, DeSensitize & Counter-Condition... which Mr Millan has apparently never heard of, & that might explain why he was bitten THREE TIMES by THREE different dogs in a single M-F week, back when he only had a non-prime-time, 20-minutes-not-counting-commercials, TV-spot. :rofl:
If a novice owner with a book of recipes for B-Mod can reshape the behavior of an adult adopted dog who's bitten 3 ppl with level-3 bites on the Dunbar scale, nobody needs "instinct" to do B-Mod, nor do they need Mr Millan's blend of wolf-pack misinformation & Hollywood tinsel.

in my under-informed opinion & IME,
- terry

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Wait. The whole alpha dog, pack leader, stuff you hear everywhere, is controversial?

I am a new owner and new to this site
 

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A lot of pack theory in training i.e. alpha rolls and dominance, are based on a single research article written about a captive pack of wolves. The problem is that captive wolves don't really act like wild wolves. In the wild, packs are sort of loose family groups of wolves that are together for food. There are cases of large packs but they are not regulated by a single alpha pair. They don't really maintain order. The captive wolves, due to what is speculated as a lack of space display what we know realize are abnormal behavior patterns.

In the event that they did, domestic dogs are not wolves. Our efforts to raise dogs as wolves is actually really bad because we are inconsistent owners. As an example, I worked with a captive pack of wolves. There was an dominant female, she prevented the lowest ranked wolf from eating for three weeks. We had to sneak the lowest ranked wolf food, while the others were in. The female wolf, had elected a roughly 3ft by 4 ft area in the one acre habitat in which the lower ranked wolf had to live. If he was caught outside of this area, i.e. to get food or a bone, she would attack and he would roll over and lick her lips. This all culminated in a pack attack on this lower ranked wolf. That lower ranked wolf was eventually removed and never reintroduced to the pack, after a more serious attack. In the wild, that wolf would have left the pack. In my house, I am not nearly committed enough to control every movement my dog makes, every day. As an example, my dog can go from the kitchen to get a drink of water without my permission.

It is true that in the wild wolves attack and kill other wolves. It is estimated in Yellowstone that one pack a year is lost in "inter pack" aggression. Which means that one pack a year dies in territorial fights with another pack. That seems like a lot, until you realize that in Yellowstone two wolves is considered a pack. The largest pack was 12-15 animals strong. This is also not surprising when the average lifespan of a wild wolf is 4 years. The most common cause of death being fractures and ironically hyperthermia due to mange.
 

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Dr. Nicholas Dodman is also retired now, he's great he helped me with my dog's awful separation anxiety.
To answer someone else's questions I believe leashed for life doesn't currently own a dog, but has in the past. She's trained other people's dogs and her own in the past.
I talk about what's worked for me with all of my animals, I've owned many cats, several horses and am a licensed horseback riding instructor and several large dogs. All of the dogs came to me with various behavior issues and all had at least a short period of some type of fear aggression. I usually found ways to manage or eliminate it.
I still think insulting someone's education and immigrant status is rude and uncalled for. You can disagree with his methods all you want.
I've already stated very clearly my first-hand years of experience with cats living socially and bonding and forming family relationships. They had a hierarchy in who ate first and who ganged up on who and who played vs fought and who got to sleep closest to me and in the most desirable spots. I need to be in charge to prevent the bully cats torturing the others.

My last dog was an Akita pitbull and very strong willed and independent. I had to be a leader or dominant, call it whatever you want or he would take advantage and I had no control of him when he was young. If he didn't do little respectful things like sit and wait for me to go through doorways first and wait to eat until I said ok, he'd be biting my roommates and anyone who went near his room with food in it, including hurting the cats. I'd also have no control as he'd drag me around on the leash and occasionally meet a person he didn't trust and snap at them. He could easily have been a very protective and aggressive dangerous dog if I didn't know him very well and know how to manage him and earn his trust that I could tell him when he needed to protect us. I socialized the heck out of him and took him to lots of barbecues so he learned strangers gave him steaks. He never ate without my permission because of his resource guarding and I never let anyone near his food area. He had to sit politely to take a treat from anyone and he'd still get too grabby at times.
Maybe I was dominant but I kept him a safe loving pet who never hurt anyone for almost twelve years. He was returned to the pound for being dog aggressive at nine months of age and I trained him to be loose for hours daily at the stable around other dogs with no problems. We went to a busy dog park once and he stayed focused on me and playing fetch, ignored all the other dogs. He was very safe and loving and friendly to many people and my little soul mate with completely perfect recall for almost twelve years. I could completely trust him. So I did a lot right and everything I did was based from love and fear that he would be labeled aggressive and I could lose him if I ever misjudged a situation and he did bite someone. But he absolutely needed that level of leadership or dominance at first or he would take charge.
My current dog I'm more lax about but I can't trust him as fully. He doesn't have that underlying aggression in him, it's all anxiety, but he will run like the wind at distractions. My last dog was a fighter down to the core, this dog is a frivolous chaser. Although he's also very protective.
 
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