[kplescia]

We have a 3 or 4 year old pug that we can only determine is being extremely spiteful and urinates throughout the house. It even happens upon re-entering the house after he was let outside to relieve himself, so it is not a matter of holding it or urinary problems. There are two other pugs around and sometimes he even attempts to urinate on them when outside together, so we try to only let him out by himself now. He does not poop in the house, and knows to go outside to relieve himself.

We acquired him a couple years ago from a neighbor. He does have some temperament issues since he grew up with an aggressive pitbull and may have not been shown the proper treatment and care. He has signs that he may have been tied up when he was younger since there are symmetrical indentations for markings around his shoulders. Maybe he has mental health issues.

I am not sure what we can do at this point. It is not much of a matter of rewarding for good behavior and punishing for bad behavior. He knows better and doesn't care. We have caught him immediately during the act on many occasions. We tried consistent punishments in separate trials following the act, such as scolding him, sticking the nose in the urine, crating him. He becomes agitated when approached after the act and growls back and gets on edge. We have tried an anxiety vest, but that doesn't seem to help. He is currently wearing a diaper mockup for the time being and he doesn't really go in it. He is caged at night to avoid the mess and he almost always never goes in the cage.

Please do not suggest neutering since that is not the source of the problem and is a poor man's solution. There is root cause somewhere with the respective behavioral correction.

 

[Lucillle]

We have a 3 or 4 year old pug that we can only determine is being extremely spiteful and urinates throughout the house. It even happens upon re-entering the house after he was let outside to relieve himself, so it is not a matter of holding it or urinary problems. There are two other pugs around and sometimes he even attempts to urinate on them when outside together, so we try to only let him out by himself now. He does not poop in the house, and knows to go outside to relieve himself.

We acquired him a couple years ago from a neighbor. He does have some temperament issues since he grew up with an aggressive pitbull and may have not been shown the proper treatment and care. He has signs that he may have been tied up when he was younger since there are symmetrical indentations for markings around his shoulders. Maybe he has mental health issues.

I am not sure what we can do at this point. It is not much of a matter of rewarding for good behavior and punishing for bad behavior. He knows better and doesn't care. We have caught him immediately during the act on many occasions. We tried consistent punishments in separate trials following the act, such as scolding him, sticking the nose in the urine, crating him. He becomes agitated when approached after the act and growls back and gets on edge. We have tried an anxiety vest, but that doesn't seem to help. He is currently wearing a diaper mockup for the time being and he doesn't really go in it. He is caged at night to avoid the mess and he almost always never goes in the cage.

Please do not suggest neutering since that is not the source of the problem and is a poor man's solution. There is root cause somewhere with the respective behavioral correction.

Part of the solution is that you need to rethink yourself, about what is going on. Dogs don't do things out of spite, period. And sticking a dog's nose in urine IS spiteful on your part, because the dog does not understand what you are trying to do. Try crate training, and use rewards. Punishing a dog doesn't work, except to make it fear you. No wonder he growls at you.

 

[kplescia]

I see you are subscribed to that belief. I was too until I witnessed these actions all the time. Please tell me what you would call this then. To clarify, this dog and other dogs are at my in-laws house, and I do not have direct control of the whole situation, but am there frequent enough to assist. I am starting to think that he may be extremely jealous and not does not feel as loved or equal to the other dogs. Nose in the urine is not an original idea of mine, and I have read reports and received this advice from other dog owners where discipline like this does work. It relates to showing the dog who is the master and who is in control. Obviously, this is not always the solution and can even make it worse. This is not a typical housetraining procedure where you can reward the dog for a good deed. That would be my first instinct, and not to punish. I must say you are highly judgmental and accusatory. Putting his nose in the urine does not provide any satisfaction to me - I hate doing it. It is done right as it happens so don't tell me the dog will not connect the bad act to the punishment and don't dare take that leap and accuse me of being spiteful. I am exploring all solutions to resolve the situation since my in-laws do not seem to put in the effort and only complain daily about it. I have never seen a dog like this in my entire life. Take a step down from your pedestal. As I stated already, this dog arrived with many temperament issues and it was worth trying many methods since nothing was working.
Asides from judging and insulting me, you only suggest crate training and rewards, effectively missing the narrative on how this is not about housetraining. Furthermore, if you claim the dog will not understand a punishment that happens during a bad deed, how the heck would he connect a random reward or treat given randomly throughout the day. Your logic fails you.
I came here for help, not whatever you are attempting to accomplish.

 

[Lucillle]

Shoving a dog's nose in its own urine is not effective and it is spiteful on your part, because the dog does not understand what you are trying to do. If the dog is urinating in unapproved ways, the first step is to take him to the vet to rule out health issues. Then, to crate train.

Have you even tried crate training using positive rewards? That is not only about house training, that method begins the building of trust, and positive reinforcements.

 

[kplescia]

Wow, you are quite stubborn and do not seem to comprehend what I just stated. More accusations and misguided logic.

Please do not respond to any of my threads. I do not want any part of what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[Artdog]

hmmm...it might be more helpful to practice the principals of positive reinforcement when answering a new members questions.
kplescia has been honest and descriptive of the behaviour and situation and methods used. That is useful to know when trying to come up with solutions. I've never housetrained a difficult dog, so I don't have much to say regarding solutions, I just hope others can do so without being insulting. Please. The dog needs help, right?
@kplescia It does sound like the methods used are seriously not working, and stressing the dog, so seeking help and advice is a good start, thanks for asking and being clear and honest.

Hive mind? Help?

 

[Bexille]

Lucille is not being judgemental or accusatory. She's right, and you should listen to her advice.

The dog will "connect the bad act to the punishment", of course, but not the way you want or expect him to. He's not going to think "peeing in the house=punishment, so I should pee outside", he's going to think "peeing=punishment". To him, it's a no-win situation, which is why he'll be afraid to pee in front of you, or he'll get defensive/aggressive, etc.

Dogs are creatures of habit. I'm curious what makes you think he "knows better"? What makes you think this isn't a housebreaking issue? Did he used to be housebroken, and this behaviour is new? I would definitely take him to the vet to make sure he doesn't have a bladder infection or something else going on.

Aside from that, teaching any creature the right thing to do using positive reinforcement is always more effective than punishing incorrect behaviour. Always. That's just psychology.

 

[Samson5261]

We had a chi mix that we adopted from the pound. His previous owner use to beat the tar out of him. He would also be let outside and then come inside and immediately pee. My parents tried all of the methods you in-laws have tried and none of them worked. The punishment seemed to make it worse so we tried positive reinforcement and that didn't work either. What we finally got to work was getting him to go in one spot on pee pads. For some reason he would just not go outside and always seemed to prefer inside so we just trained him to use the pee pads so he wouldn't go all over the house. You may see if your in-laws are willing to try to get him to just pee in one spot on a pee pad so he is not peeing all over the house.

 

[Lucillle]

Aside from that, teaching any creature the right thing to do using positive reinforcement is always more effective than punishing incorrect behaviour. Always. That's just psychology.

I agree. Although it will take some time and gentleness to overcome the bad memories of the punishment he received and did not understand.

 

[kplescia]

Lucille is not being judgemental or accusatory. She's right, and you should listen to her advice.

The dog will "connect the bad act to the punishment", of course, but not the way you want or expect him to. He's not going to think "peeing in the house=punishment, so I should pee outside", he's going to think "peeing=punishment". To him, it's a no-win situation, which is why he'll be afraid to pee in front of you, or he'll get defensive/aggressive, etc.

Dogs are creatures of habit. I'm curious what makes you think he "knows better"? What makes you think this isn't a housebreaking issue? Did he used to be housebroken, and this behaviour is new? I would definitely take him to the vet to make sure he doesn't have a bladder infection or something else going on.

Aside from that, teaching any creature the right thing to do using positive reinforcement is always more effective than punishing incorrect behaviour. Always. That's just psychology.

I completely agree that positive reinforcement is the best course of action whenever provided. The trouble with this situation is when to positive reinforce, and how the dog will connect any reinforcement.

This is not a housetraining issue. The dog came to us trained to go outside. He doesn't relieve himself in full and does not poop in the house ever. He spreads it around in very small quantities once or twice a day, marking his territory. I've seen him do it. He is not holding anything in. He does it after he relieves himself outside. What else do you call that? There could be a few days where he doesn't do it at all. That's why I say he knows better. We have taken him to the vet and they just promote the extra revenue from neutering him. There is no clear problem.

I clearly stated I experimented with other methods since we have no idea what else we can do. We do not regularly do it, and we take no satisfaction in doing so. For Lucille to judge us and suggest we enjoy taking out our frustration our of spite, and prefer disciplining the dog in a physical nature, is completely judgmental and insulting. I explained the situation again in more detail and she still repeated herself.

I am stepping up since my in-laws wont put in the effort to remedy the situation. It is bad for everyone, especially the dogs. She is judging me and insinuating I am a terrible person. She does not comprehend anything I have stated.

I already stated the dog is being kept in a crate overnight, but the dog has been staying in the crate during the day as well.



I am really starting to believe the dog has developed animosity towards my father-in-law that is always scolding him and not being affectionate. The problem is getting him to change his ways as well.

 

[kplescia]

hmmm...it might be more helpful to practice the principals of positive reinforcement when answering a new members questions.
kplescia has been honest and descriptive of the behaviour and situation and methods used. That is useful to know when trying to come up with solutions. I've never housetrained a difficult dog, so I don't have much to say regarding solutions, I just hope others can do so without being insulting. Please. The dog needs help, right?
@kplescia It does sound like the methods used are seriously not working, and stressing the dog, so seeking help and advice is a good start, thanks for asking and being clear and honest.

Hive mind? Help?

Thank you for understanding my intention. I am trying to remedy a situation which I do not have direct control over, but I am being attacked, judged, and insulted, for trying certain methods. Clearly they didn't work, so we do not continue to do it. Lucille seems to think it is satisfying to us to punish the dog.

 

[Rain]

We have a 3 or 4 year old pug that we can only determine is being extremely spiteful and urinates throughout the house. It even happens upon re-entering the house after he was let outside to relieve himself, so it is not a matter of holding it or urinary problems. There are two other pugs around and sometimes he even attempts to urinate on them when outside together, so we try to only let him out by himself now. He does not poop in the house, and knows to go outside to relieve himself.

We acquired him a couple years ago from a neighbor. He does have some temperament issues since he grew up with an aggressive pitbull and may have not been shown the proper treatment and care. He has signs that he may have been tied up when he was younger since there are symmetrical indentations for markings around his shoulders. Maybe he has mental health issues.

I am not sure what we can do at this point. It is not much of a matter of rewarding for good behavior and punishing for bad behavior. He knows better and doesn't care. We have caught him immediately during the act on many occasions. We tried consistent punishments in separate trials following the act, such as scolding him, sticking the nose in the urine, crating him. He becomes agitated when approached after the act and growls back and gets on edge. We have tried an anxiety vest, but that doesn't seem to help. He is currently wearing a diaper mockup for the time being and he doesn't really go in it. He is caged at night to avoid the mess and he almost always never goes in the cage.

Please do not suggest neutering since that is not the source of the problem and is a poor man's solution. There is root cause somewhere with the respective behavioral correction.

First suggestion is to take him to the vet, if you haven't already done so, and make sure that nothing medical is going on. Once you have him cleared medically then you can begin to address the urination as behavioral.

Dogs do NOT pee out of spite. They do so to mark territory, out of anxiety, fear, excitement, or because they are not housetrained, but NEVER out of spite. A dog does not have the ability to think to himself, "My human made me mad and I'll get back at her by peeing on her stuff, or in her house, that'll show her!". So please, for your sake and the dog's sake, stop thinking that's what he's doing. You're just causing him and yourself a lot of unneeded stress.

Punishments, like you are doing, tend to backfire, and that's what it sounds like is happening with your pug. What a dog tends to learn is that a human does not like to see them pee in the house and they should hide to pee. He may also learn to fear the human and defend himself. All of that makes housetraining 100% harder. You may end up with a dog that is afraid to pee in front of you so you cannot reward him for peeing outside, you may end up with pee in inventive spots as he seeks out hidden places to relieve himself, and you may end up trying to undo the fear aggressiveness because he's now afraid of you approaching him. So end the punishments, they're really not helping you, and are completely unnecessary to helping him learn to potty outside.


First buy a black light, it illuminates urine, get the room as dark as you can and start shining that light all over the floor and up along the furniture and walls as high as he can hike his leg. Mark the spots that glow and then when you are finished hunting for urine, go back and clean the spots with an enzyme cleaner like Nature's Miracle or Pet OUT!. Those types of cleaners break down the urine so that the area no longer smells like a potty place to the dog.

Next start treating him like a puppy, meaning no freedom in the house until he's housetrained, unless you are positive that he's peed outside. Either crate him, put him in an exercise pen, in a small room like the bathroom, or tether him to you. You need to eliminate his opportunities to potty in the house. If you need to let him loose, or are not certain that he's completely empty when you give him freedom, then put a belly band on him so that at least you have less to clean up.

Think up a schedule for him to potty, and take him out at those set times. Every 2 hours is a good place to start, since hes' not a puppy. Basically take him out every 2 hours and if he potties then within a couple seconds of him peeing give him a high value treat like real meat or a piece of cheese. That means that you need to go out with him to make sure he potties and be ready to reward him, no standing in the door, or waiting in the house. Give him enough time to potty a couple of times to try and stop him from coming back in and peeing in the house. After he's pottied you can let him have some freedom in the house until the next scheduled potty time.

If he does not potty then no freedom, wait 10 to 20 minutes then take him back out and try again.

If you notice that he's only peeing every 3 hours then start taking him out every 3 hours. If he's still having accidents even though he's out every 2 hours then try taking him out every 1 hour 45 minutes. Play with the time until you can figure out how often he needs to go out.

If he has an accident just clean it up and try and figure out why he had it. Was he playing and forgot he needed to go. Did you forget to take him out. Did you give him to much freedom to soon. Clean up the accident with the enzyme cleaner and go about your day. No punishing him. If you catch him in the act, pick him up like you would a puppy and take him outside. If he finishes up then he gets a treat, if he doesn't then he gets confined for 10 minutes and you take him back outside. Again no punishing him.

Thank you for rescuing him and for not giving up on him. I do know how frustrating potty accidents are, it took me 8 months to housetrain my terrier, but I promise if you stop him from having accidents and help him form the habit of pottying outside, they will stop.

 

[kplescia]

Wanted to add
He does it in very small quantities once or twice a day, marking a given spot his territory, whether the refrigerator, the door, pillows. Going out of his way for my in-laws bedroom which he is not allowed in, and to urinate on the pillows is intent.

 

[Lucillle]

Dogs do NOT pee out of spite. They do so to mark territory, out of anxiety, fear, excitement, or because they are not housetrained, but NEVER out of spite.

I agree. And if there are no health issues, the crate training will build trust (an important issue after physical punishment has been meted out and the dog does not understand why) and be the start of a relationship where the dog's urinating in the proper place will be rewarded.

 

[Lucillle]

Wanted to add
He does it in very small quantities once or twice a day, marking a given spot his territory, whether the refrigerator, the door, pillows. Going out of his way for my in-laws bedroom which he is not allowed in, and to urinate on the pillows is intent.

Start crate training him; the only places he should be is on a leash with you looking at him, outside, and in his crate. Reward him going outside with special praise and maybe even a treat.

 

[Shandula]

I am really starting to believe the dog has developed animosity towards my father-in-law that is always scolding him and not being affectionate. The problem is getting him to change his ways as well.

I wonder if the choice to urinate on the pillows in the in-law's room is attention-seeking behavior. Not spite, but in a dog's mind, negative attention is still attention.

I found with my BC, she wouldn't empty her bladder completely. I would take her out, stand with her on leash and wait for her to pee twice, sometimes three times.

 

[Bexille]

If he is actually marking, then you may need to address other aspects of the situation as well. I just did a quick search and found these articles about marking.

Urine-Marking: Why Dogs Mark Their Territory : The Humane Society of the United States

Dog Marking & House Soiling - Dogtime

 

[kplescia]

First suggestion is to take him to the vet, if you haven't already done so, and make sure that nothing medical is going on. Once you have him cleared medically then you can begin to address the urination as behavioral.

Dogs do NOT pee out of spite. They do so to mark territory, out of anxiety, fear, excitement, or because they are not housetrained, but NEVER out of spite. A dog does not have the ability to think to himself, "My human made me mad and I'll get back at her by peeing on her stuff, or in her house, that'll show her!". So please, for your sake and the dog's sake, stop thinking that's what he's doing. You're just causing him and yourself a lot of unneeded stress.

Punishments, like you are doing, tend to backfire, and that's what it sounds like is happening with your pug. What a dog tends to learn is that a human does not like to see them pee in the house and they should hide to pee. He may also learn to fear the human and defend himself. All of that makes housetraining 100% harder. You may end up with a dog that is afraid to pee in front of you so you cannot reward him for peeing outside, you may end up with pee in inventive spots as he seeks out hidden places to relieve himself, and you may end up trying to undo the fear aggressiveness because he's now afraid of you approaching him. So end the punishments, they're really not helping you, and are completely unnecessary to helping him learn to potty outside.


First buy a black light, it illuminates urine, get the room as dark as you can and start shining that light all over the floor and up along the furniture and walls as high as he can hike his leg. Mark the spots that glow and then when you are finished hunting for urine, go back and clean the spots with an enzyme cleaner like Nature's Miracle or Pet OUT!. Those types of cleaners break down the urine so that the area no longer smells like a potty place to the dog.

Next start treating him like a puppy, meaning no freedom in the house until he's housetrained, unless you are positive that he's peed outside. Either crate him, put him in an exercise pen, in a small room like the bathroom, or tether him to you. You need to eliminate his opportunities to potty in the house. If you need to let him loose, or are not certain that he's completely empty when you give him freedom, then put a belly band on him so that at least you have less to clean up.

Think up a schedule for him to potty, and take him out at those set times. Every 2 hours is a good place to start, since hes' not a puppy. Basically take him out every 2 hours and if he potties then within a couple seconds of him peeing give him a high value treat like real meat or a piece of cheese. That means that you need to go out with him to make sure he potties and be ready to reward him, no standing in the door, or waiting in the house. Give him enough time to potty a couple of times to try and stop him from coming back in and peeing in the house. After he's pottied you can let him have some freedom in the house until the next scheduled potty time.

If he does not potty then no freedom, wait 10 to 20 minutes then take him back out and try again.

If you notice that he's only peeing every 3 hours then start taking him out every 3 hours. If he's still having accidents even though he's out every 2 hours then try taking him out every 1 hour 45 minutes. Play with the time until you can figure out how often he needs to go out.

If he has an accident just clean it up and try and figure out why he had it. Was he playing and forgot he needed to go. Did you forget to take him out. Did you give him to much freedom to soon. Clean up the accident with the enzyme cleaner and go about your day. No punishing him. If you catch him in the act, pick him up like you would a puppy and take him outside. If he finishes up then he gets a treat, if he doesn't then he gets confined for 10 minutes and you take him back outside. Again no punishing him.

Thank you for rescuing him and for not giving up on him. I do know how frustrating potty accidents are, it took me 8 months to housetrain my terrier, but I promise if you stop him from having accidents and help him form the habit of pottying outside, they will stop.

I am guessing and hoping you didn't read all my posts. I will restate this again, this is not a housetraining issue. The punishments were only trials for us to learn if it was a dominance issue. They were stopped a long time ago.

Clearly dogs have emotions too, and whatever is causing his behavior, fear, jealousy, anxiety, it is relating to his actions. Many people refuse to believe that it can be spite, but when he takes actions like this out of his emotions, that's exactly what it is.
He does his deeds in very small quantities once or twice a day, marking a given spot his territory, whether the refrigerator, the door, pillows. Going out of his way for my in-laws bedroom which he is not allowed in, and to urinate on the pillows is intent. That is no accident.

The dog has been cleared medically.
Going back to the basics as you suggest could potentially help as to granting freedom, but not as much as to conveying the message that he goes outside to relieve himself, because he already knows that. I don't think a treat or any type of reward would satisfy him enough to overcome his emotional discontent.
I think it is more of an affection issue from my in-laws that is triggering his emotions. He must have been sensitive from his last household.

 

[PoppyKenna]

But if he knows he is supposed to go outside, why isn't he?

It may be for negative attention but I'd bet he is either doing it out of habit or marking.

Get the black light and natures miracle like rain suggested and clean up well. It will also help to go back to house training basics. Some habits die hard.

I'm not saying neutering is the answer - some neutered dogs do still mark - but sometimes it does help. You can also take him on loooooooong walks, giving him plenty of opportunities to leave his scent outside (interesting walks, not just in the yard).

 

[kplescia]

If he is actually marking, then you may need to address other aspects of the situation as well. I just did a quick search and found these articles about marking.

Urine-Marking: Why Dogs Mark Their Territory : The Humane Society of the United States

Dog Marking & House Soiling - Dogtime

Thanks for your help.
Aside from my in-laws, particularly father-in-law, it very well could be an issue he has with one of the pugs which he doesn't seem to get along with most of the time. He could very well jealous and claiming his territory. Most of the issues result from new people or pets, but the pug with the urinating issue is the newest one to the house.
I can only gather that we can try to aid the relationship with my father-in-law. I have no idea how to make him feel better towards the other pug.