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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I hear sometimes about using leash corrections for example with a choke chain, and I was thinking about all that and asked the vet about it when I went with my neighbor to get her dog's nails clipped(she's old and can't control the dog in the car). The vet said that unless the choke chain was constricted for long enough to restrict the dog's breathing, it'd be hard to injure the dog with something like a leash correction, and she said she had no problem with them when they're used correctly. I'm not saying I advocate the use of them, I'm just curious what you guys think.
 

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The short answer, in my opinion, is ethics. Dogs don't do things that we deem rude or annoying to intentionally irritate us.
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The short answer, in my opinion, is ethics. Dogs don't do things that we deem rude or annoying to intentionally irritate us.
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Ok, so, not to be "rude"(coincidentally), but I'm having trouble seeing how that applies to use of punishment in dog training. People who do use punishment don't do it to intentionally irritate the dog, they use it to get the dog's attention and show the dog that there are consequences to disobedience.
 

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As others have said, my problem with leash corrections and other punishments is that they aren't necessary, and why would I choose to cause pain or discomfort to a dog I love--or any dog, really? There are proven, positive methods available, and in my (admittedly fairly limited) experience, they work.
 

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Slab,

Because most people aren't as tough as the dog. How many people do you see walking their dogs with the dog pulling like crazy? I don't care if it is a flat collar, choke chain or prong collar, the dog is still forging and not self correcting due to the collar. A dog will go to higher levels of discomfort when self imposed and regulated by the dog itself. The tightening of a collar around a dog's neck just incites many a dog and is counterproductive. All collars will begin to cut off a dog's air supply at some point/force and a flat collar will do the same.

Leash pressure is one thing and when properly used need not be excessive to train a dog. Unless your dog is coming up the leash and laying teeth on you, there really is no need to resort to a collar that is a shortcut of sorts.
 

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I use clicker training and other positive-based methods with my dog and she's wonderful! She's never, ever felt a collar correction at all in her year with me.

Basically: All methods work. And if all methods work, might as well use the one that's fun for the person and the dog!!!
 

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Now a days I don't use it because of the unintentional fall out.

You mentioned leash pops, and a choke chain. My first dog Shadow was pretty unsensitive when it came to corrections, any type of corrections. I was taught to use a choke chain and leash pops in the obedience class I took with him, I knew how to use them properly, but when Shadow had it in his head to chase after something I could leash pop him and he didn't care. He PULLED with the choke chain on till the only way I had to loosen it so he could breath was to drag him in the opposite direction until he finally quit pulling. A prong would have been torture to him and even back then I flat out refused to use an e collar. It ended up working a lot better with him to use positive reinforcement since if I used punishment it'd have escalated to the point of abuse. With him I was lucky there was very little, if any, fall out.

Now I have Zody, a fearful reactive dog. If I used the methods I did back when I had Shadow, I'm willing to bet that he'd either completely shut down, or become even more aggressive then he is. He's very smart and he'd likely come to associate the thing he was reacting to with the punishment and learn to fear it even more since the person or dog was causing bad things to happen.

Sometimes the pain and discomfort go deeper then just the bodily, sometimes it's and cannot be seen right away.
 
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Wow, there's much to unpack here.

First, leash corrections aren't the only form of punishment. Punishment can range from resetting a dog at an agility start line for moving before given a release to yelling at and hitting a dog for escaping his yard after he returns.

In the first situation, the punishment - especially if combined with additional R+ training - is likely to provide the desired results with very little risk. In the second situation, the punishment is very likely to be ineffective and have a high risk of fallout.

Second, even if a leash correction causes no physical harm, it can cause psychological harm. Punishment has fallout. It may not be immediate, it may not be obviously related to the punishment, but it's there. The more punishment, the more fallout.

Third, the mindset of using punishment as the go-to training method isn't the type of relationship most people would advocate. What type of relationship do you want with your dog? One where he behaves because he fear punishment or one where he behaves because it results in good things?

I've also noticed personally that folks who use punishment as a go-to training method don't look for opportunities to reward good behavior nor do they attempt to train more desirable behavior. Again, that's not the type of relationship I want with my dogs.

Finally, ethically I can't condone the use of punishment for training when there are far better ways to train a dog. Using pain, fear, intimidation, and/or compulsion is not something I can support knowing I can get the same - if not better - results using reinforcement, management, and/or environmental manipulation.

I'm curious to know what training you've done with your own dog or dogs you've trained.
 

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There is a big difference between 'punishment' and 'discipline', and I believe there is nothing wrong with discipline when training but I do not condone punishment.

Dogs are body language creatures, they are constantly reading us and we should be constantly reading them too. So my opinion is to learn how dogs think so we can effectively communicate with them. Dogs think like dogs, not people. As cute as the phrase 'furbabies' is, we cannot forget they are K9's, not little people.

I believe when training a dog respect and kindness is crucial but so is leadership.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Leash corrections work because they cause pain or discomfort.

Unnecessarily causing pain and discomfort to another living creature is pretty much textbook bad.
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Ok, so from what you're saying, your position I assume is that leash corrections are bad because it makes the handler look mean and unfair to the dog and that's bad. The thing is though, if a dog is running in the forest and runs into the tree, does he think the tree is mean? Is the tree cruel? I would guess that dogs, in their intelligence, would have the understanding that the unpleasantness of running into a tree was caused by their own actions.

I believe that body language has a lot to do with a dog's fear of a handler, so in a scenario for example where a dog is taught to sit(and we know he knows what sit means), and he is told to sit but doesn't; if the handler makes a correction without emotion or a second command or any intimidating body language, do you think the dog is able to realize that he was corrected because of his own disobedience? Is an unemotional consequence in that case cruel any more than the tree is? From a human perspective and especially from one human to another, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to understand the consequences of one's actions to be a result of his own action, not the one who inflicted it. Would you say it's the same for dogs?

As others have said, my problem with leash corrections and other punishments is that they aren't necessary, and why would I choose to cause pain or discomfort to a dog I love--or any dog, really? There are proven, positive methods available, and in my (admittedly fairly limited) experience, they work.
Ok, I understand, but from my perspective I wonder if pure positive training can achieve as much reliability as balanced training can, because the dog may want to chase a car more than get praise for staying but he wouldn't rather get a correction than stay.


Wow, there's much to unpack here.

First, leash corrections aren't the only form of punishment. Punishment can range from resetting a dog at an agility start line for moving before given a release to yelling at and hitting a dog for escaping his yard after he returns.
Oh yeah I know that, but the scenario I'm asking my question about is using leash corrections as a general form of punishment.

I've also noticed personally that folks who use punishment as a go-to training method don't look for opportunities to reward good behavior nor do they attempt to train more desirable behavior. Again, that's not the type of relationship I want with my dogs.
Yeah, I would never wanna use punishment without also using positive reinforcement right also.

Finally, ethically I can't condone the use of punishment for training when there are far better ways to train a dog. Using pain, fear, intimidation, and/or compulsion is not something I can support knowing I can get the same - if not better - results using reinforcement, management, and/or environmental manipulation.
Well nobody said that punishment automatically creates fear and intimidation, but I think I unfortunately disagree with positive reinforcement being just as effective let alone better than balanced training(first response). Not recommending punishment, just saying for the sake of conversation.

There is a big difference between 'punishment' and 'discipline', and I believe there is nothing wrong with discipline when training but I do not condone punishment.
What if you have a dog coming up the leash at you? Is it okay to use punishment to stop the situation immediately? No matter what you need to do to do so?

I believe when training a dog respect and kindness is crucial but so is leadership.
Me too, but there's a serious problem when you have a dog who doesn't respect you or see you as a leader. I don't believe you can create respect or make yourself a leader just by being super nice and kind and cuddly with a dog.
 

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So, I have a very intelligent but hard to train dog. He's fear reactive, has a super high prey drive, and IMO is just kind of reactive in general - he doesn't often think things through. He is a dog that brings about the topic of corrections, either by people who think he NEEDS to be corrected or by his trainers who tell me that in anyone else's hands he probably WOULD be corrected and his temperament wouldn't be able to handle that.


Ok, so from what you're saying, your position I assume is that leash corrections are bad because it makes the handler look mean and unfair to the dog and that's bad. The thing is though, if a dog is running in the forest and runs into the tree, does he think the tree is mean? Is the tree cruel? I would guess that dogs, in their intelligence, would have the understanding that the unpleasantness of running into a tree was caused by their own actions.
The dog may think that running into the tree was their fault, but they may also think it was the tree, yes. Real world example: when he was younger, my dog knocked a bag down off of a bench and it scared him. Did he think, "gee, better not do that next time"? Nope - he thought the bag was bad and out to get him and it led to extensive CCing to convince him that ALL bags aren't bad.

This happens sometimes when people correct growling or barking behaviors when a dog is scared; often the dog makes the association with the item they were originally afraid of INSTEAD OF thinking that it was the barking or the growling that got them into trouble. And if they do manage to believe that it was the growling/barking, that tends to lead to them suppressing those behaviors, but doesn't change how they feel, which leaves you with dogs that "bite out of the blue".


Ok, I understand, but from my perspective I wonder if pure positive training can achieve as much reliability as balanced training can, because the dog may want to chase a car more than get praise for staying but he wouldn't rather get a correction than stay.
Have you ever heard of dogs that bolt through electric fences while chasing a deer? When a dog has that high of a prey drive, pretty much nothing is going to stop him.

Again, in the case of my dog: he used to have a very big problem with chasing cats and cattle. I think he was partially afraid but ultimately I think it was just prey drive. He wants to chase, chase, chase.

Now, I kept him leashed and whenever he wanted to chase I guess you could say he got a leash correction - not intentionally but his lunging would cause pressure on his neck.

Recently, he's been unleashed around these animals and we're working on building up his recall but also just creating happy situations whenever he chooses to ignore said animal. Within about two months he's 90% better than he used to be. It's crazy! I rarely have treats, either, so it's 100% praise.

Now, would he still chase a turkey that trotted in front of him? Heck yeah, but even with some sort of corrective collar he'd chase so why hurt him when we can work positively instead and get better results?

Well nobody said that punishment automatically creates fear and intimidation, but I think I unfortunately disagree with positive reinforcement being just as effective let alone better than balanced training(first response). Not recommending punishment, just saying for the sake of conversation.
It doesn't always create fear, but there's a very real chance that it could. Very few dogs are so stable that they can handle a person who doesn't know what they're doing yanking them around. Besides, positive training is just so much more fun - everyone gets to be happy.


What if you have a dog coming up the leash at you? Is it okay to use punishment to stop the situation immediately? No matter what you need to do to do so?
As in, a dog about to attack you? That's a totally different situation and of course you have every right to defend yourself.


Me too, but there's a serious problem when you have a dog who doesn't respect you or see you as a leader. I don't believe you can create respect or make yourself a leader just by being super nice and kind and cuddly with a dog.
My dog respects me very much, thanks, and I don't have to hit him or scream at him to make him do so. In fact, he's very sensitive so by NOT doing any of those things, our bond is strengthened. I don't let him run wild, I do set boundaries for him, but again, I don't have to be physically mean to him to get him to do what I need him to do.

I think what works best for me and my dogs is that I take the time to get to know them and understand what THEY need.

So many people don't do this and it really causes problems, for example, they have a barking dog and they think their dog is being naughty and needs to be 'corrected'. In my situation, when my dog is barking I know it's because he is frightened so I figure out how to handle that situation in the best way possible to make him feel safe.

At the end of the day it comes down to this: you can set your dog up for success and reward him for that success, or you can set your dog up for failure and punish him for that failure. In which situation would you learn better?
 

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Ok, so from what you're saying, your position I assume is that leash corrections are bad because it makes the handler look mean and unfair to the dog and that's bad. The thing is though, if a dog is running in the forest and runs into the tree, does he think the tree is mean? Is the tree cruel? I would guess that dogs, in their intelligence, would have the understanding that the unpleasantness of running into a tree was caused by their own actions.
That depends, some dogs can be pretty superstitious about stuff. I've seen dogs avoid certain areas or objects because the dog did something to cause itself pain that area or with that object. It's like a dog with a toothache that decides it's no longer going to eat from it's bowl because every time it does so it's mouth hurts. It ends up associating the bowl with the pain and so avoids the bowl.

I believe that body language has a lot to do with a dog's fear of a handler, so in a scenario for example where a dog is taught to sit(and we know he knows what sit means), and he is told to sit but doesn't; if the handler makes a correction without emotion or a second command or any intimidating body language, do you think the dog is able to realize that he was corrected because of his own disobedience? Is an unemotional consequence in that case cruel any more than the tree is? From a human perspective and especially from one human to another, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to understand the consequences of one's actions to be a result of his own action, not the one who inflicted it. Would you say it's the same for dogs?
Instead of viewing a dog not obeying commands as being disobedient and in need of punishment, I see it as my needing to step back and figure out why the dog is not obeying. Have I trained the command enough and does the dog know it in all situations. Have I worked up to the amount of distraction that is around us. Is something hurting or bothering him. Those are some of the things I look into.

Ok, I understand, but from my perspective I wonder if pure positive training can achieve as much reliability as balanced training can, because the dog may want to chase a car more than get praise for staying but he wouldn't rather get a correction than stay.

Well nobody said that punishment automatically creates fear and intimidation, but I think I unfortunately disagree with positive reinforcement being just as effective let alone better than balanced training(first response). Not recommending punishment, just saying for the sake of conversation.

Look up Kikopup, Patricia Mcconnell, Sophia Yin, and or Zac George. They are all dog trainers that use positive reinforcement with amazing results. There are dogs participating, and winning, in things like Rally O, and Agility that are trained with positive reinforcement. Here's an article on training Police Dogs using positive reinforcement https://positivepolicedogs.wordpres...police-dog-using-only-positive-reinforcement/

https://positivepolicedogs.wordpres...police-dog-using-only-positive-reinforcement/

What if you have a dog coming up the leash at you? Is it okay to use punishment to stop the situation immediately? No matter what you need to do to do so?
If you are referring to a dog that's attempting to attack you that's a whole different matter then training a dog.

Me too, but there's a serious problem when you have a dog who doesn't respect you or see you as a leader. I don't believe you can create respect or make yourself a leader just by being super nice and kind and cuddly with a dog.
Using Positive Reinforcement does not mean that there's no consequences for unwanted behavior. When my boy decides to imitate a Husky I have no need to leash pop, I simply do not allow him to have the reward he's seeking which is to go forward. Usually I will turn around and make him walk in the opposite behavior for a few feet before turning back around. He's learned, very quickly, that pulling gets him nothing but keeping slack in the leash gets him where he wants to go.

Making my dog obey me does not mean he views me as the leader, it just means I taught him a few tricks. My dog knew, and would obey (no punishment needed) quite a few commands, but he did not respect me, he did not see me as his leader, he didn't love me very much. He viewed his original owner as his leader and he loved her dearly, he was willing to wait for her till hell froze over. All using punishment, and a load of corrections, would have done, was teach him to fear me, and that he should not trust me. It took time, gentleness, and proving to him that he could trust me because I would not hurt him, and would respect how he was feeling and help him, to win his love, trust, and respect.
 

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Positive punishment or negative punishment? I use negative punishment (-P, taking away a good thing) all the time to shape behavior: They jump on me, I turn around and walk away. They play rudely with other dogs, I remove you from the dog park. They demand bark at a toy, the toy goes away.

Positive punishment (+P, introducing a bad thing)... There are endless articles on the detriments of +P. You can enlighten yourself with articles in Whole Dog Journal, academic articles and studies, books, seminars, researching successful techniques in the training of shelter dogs and service dogs. Even guide dogs have seen a huge jump in graduation rates of dogs since they stopped +P in training.

What you can't find is my personal experience: So I work at a daycare. You see a lot of interesting dog behaviors there. You also see the gear that the dogs come in on (flat collars, front clip harnesses, chokes, shocks), and sometimes how the owners handle them when they are excited.

The WORST dogs in our daycare have been trained by a "Sit Means Sit" knockoff. One has a severe crate-guarding problem, and will stand by the crates for hours if you let him, obsessively snarling and lunging at dogs who come near his crates. You know why he likes the crates? Because he gets alone-time if he is let into one of them. He just doesn't want squat to do with other dogs. He doesn't even want much to do with his owner. He has been with us since he was a puppy but he is the only dog in the daycare who will NOT get excited to see his owner when dad picks him up. He just scurries right past him. All he wants to do is get out of daycare.

The other dog from this trainer was "fired" from daycare earlier this week for increasingly aggressive behavior towards handlers. I've never seen a dog so obsessive. For the first few weeks of daycare he would pace the room all day. When we finally calmed him down from pacing after weeks of work, he would snap at any dog that tried to play with him. Bye bye. The scariest part about this dog is that the owners thought he was completely normal. They were always telling us about the fun they saw him having on the webcams. The employees were kind of gobsmacked... How can anyone watch a dog trot circles around the room, practically wearing a trail in the floor, ignoring all attempts by dogs/handlers to interact for HOURS on end and compute that as "Normal"? That dog was so cooked you could have stuck a fork in his bum. Were he still around for observation, I would PM you and show you a video. It was sad to watch.

Resource-guarding and OCDs are also quite common in dogs that come in on chokes/shocks. I can only name two that act remotely normal. None of the dogs on our "issue list", by the way, are rescues.

The other loopiest dog in daycare is a little poodle who is actually a therapy dog, I'm told. Too small for chokes. He is also a maniacal pacer... even at 12 years old. this dog would pace until it dropped dead, and barks itself hoarse if crated for rest. Every time the owner picks the dog up, it loses it because it is so happy to see her after 8 hours of totally losing its marbles. Every time, she shouts at it for running to her and clawing at her. She shouts and "SHHHHHT"s and holds the dog to the floor in a down position until it calms down fractionally. She makes it do a "stay" behind the front desk and then stomps away so that it sounds like she is leaving without him. Kind of heartbreaking when you know that her dog has been freaking out all day and was just overly relieved to see her.

And you want to know the kicker about all of the "cooked" dogs I have described to you? The punishment doesn't change their behavior!!! Every day they come in with the same issues that their owners have been intending to correct with the choking, the shocking, the "corrections", the shouting and the pinning. Every. Friggin. Day.

Welp, that turned into a bit of a rant. I apologize for the wall of text, I've never really described all of these "cases" in one post. There's more, too. But this is what I see every day: Dogs, how they are trained, and the behavior that results from it. The frustrating thing is that none of these owners have any insight whatsoever. They think that snarling, pacing, screaming and obsessive/antisocial behavior is just what dogs do, and they'll probably continue to think that because they might never have the experience of owning a confident, mentally-balanced, composed dog.
 

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Ok, so from what you're saying, your position I assume is that leash corrections are bad because it makes the handler look mean and unfair to the dog and that's bad. The thing is though, if a dog is running in the forest and runs into the tree, does he think the tree is mean? Is the tree cruel? I would guess that dogs, in their intelligence, would have the understanding that the unpleasantness of running into a tree was caused by their own actions.
No. I'm saying that intentionally causing pain or distress when other options exist is bad.

and honestly, the implication that the only reason to not cause some thing pain is because of societal censure is disturbing.
 

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OP, I really think it depends on how much. There is a wide spectrum when it comes to training. No training is purely positive, -P works because the dog doesn’t like it. The way I see it, instead of causing physical discomfort, you are giving the dog mental anguish. Which one is worse? I don’t know, it depends on the dog. It’s like, if you do a project incorrectly, do you prefer to get a slap on the hand or do you prefer not to get paid for the project? Given a choice, I would take a slap on the hand, but I am sure there are plenty of others who would choose not getting paid.

I consider myself a balanced trainer because I use prong and e-collars when needed. Have I trained a dog without? Sure, really depends on the dog. My current sports dog, a 2.5-year-old Malinois, had all her foundation put on with motivational methods. After she turned 1.5 years old, I’ve used e-collar corrections here and there. Did that ruin her love for training? No, she is engaged during training, she loves it. It all depends on how often you use it, how you use it, and what foundation you've put on the dog.

I’ve seen trainers who train force-free, but use too much –P and not enough +R, dogs really didn’t look like they enjoyed training. I’ve seen balanced trainers who are so heavy-handed, the dogs were scared of their handlers. And I’ve seen a lot of trainers in between who found what worked for them and their dogs, they are a joy to watch.

I don’t see force-free as being truly kinder, but if it works for the handler/dog team, good for them. I don’t see prong and e-collars as being cruel when used correctly and judiciously, but then again, it depends on the handler/dog team.

Nothing is definitive in training. When I watch people train, I don’t care if they are force-free or not, all I care about is how happy and engaged the dog looks. The dog’s body language tells me everything.
 

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I think that many vets tend to be fairly ambiguous in regards to training methods and tools- unless something is clearly causing problems for the dog, they aren't going to say much unless asked, and maybe not even then. Whether it's because they don't have strong feelings on the subject, or because they don't feel it's their place to inject their opinions, probably depends on the individual, and there are certainly some vets who will offer their thoughts on the subject.

The thing is though, if a dog is running in the forest and runs into the tree, does he think the tree is mean? Is the tree cruel? I would guess that dogs, in their intelligence, would have the understanding that the unpleasantness of running into a tree was caused by their own actions.
If my dog injured himself by running into a tree, I might expect him to have some uncertainty regarding at least that tree in the future, it would depend on the dog. One of my dogs (who is a "soft" dog when not working in drive, but almost impervious to physical correction if he sees a tennis ball or a body of water) caught a toenail in our pier last year jumping into my boat, and just in the last 2 months or so has finally stopped being hesitant about coming out onto the pier- this is with exposure to the pier almost daily. Initially he avoided going on the pier completely unless directed, then walked low with tail tucked, balked at getting into the boat (which he loves and goes crazy when we prepare to do); then took to launching himself into the boat like the pier was on fire, nervously hanging out on the pier when not getting in the boat; now he's back to just lounging on it casually, loading normally into the boat. I admit to mostly ignoring his fearful behavior and just going on about my business, though I did praise him for being "brave", and he would occasionally get a piece of bait as a reward, or if he brought his tennis ball out (initially he was too fearful), I'd throw it for him.

It also wouldn't entirely surprise me if, rather than being afraid of the tree, my dog were instead reluctant to play with the specific toy he was chasing when the discomfort occurred, or visit the neighbor he was running over to, or any other specific thing that was occurring at that time, as dogs can be funny sometimes regarding what they associate with a given event. This same dog of mine hides under the furniture when people go into the bathroom for a long time because he's afraid of the noise the smoke alarm makes (he assumes long bathroom occupation=shower, shower=steam, steam=alarm), the last time an event like this actually happened was probably more than 2 years ago, and it only happened a handful of times, but he still holds onto the association.

I believe that body language has a lot to do with a dog's fear of a handler, so in a scenario for example where a dog is taught to sit(and we know he knows what sit means), and he is told to sit but doesn't; if the handler makes a correction without emotion or a second command or any intimidating body language, do you think the dog is able to realize that he was corrected because of his own disobedience? Is an unemotional consequence in that case cruel any more than the tree is? From a human perspective and especially from one human to another, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to understand the consequences of one's actions to be a result of his own action, not the one who inflicted it. Would you say it's the same for dogs?
But does he know what "sit" means? I see many people who insist their puppy, at 10 weeks old, knows what "sit" means, when in reality, the puppy cant possibly have had enough exposure and repetition to be 100% familiar with the concept. The same for mature dogs who have only been trained in a given environment, whose owners then expect compliance in a much more challenging scenario, and assume the dog is ignoring or defying them if they do not perform accordingly. I also question the "average" (and sometimes even above average) dog owner's ability to deliver a physical correction in an unemotional, unintimidating, and non-repetitive, but more importantly, TIMELY and FAIR correction. That tends to be a common problem with physical correction, though it can also be an issue with reward based training, albeit with less severe consequences.

There is also the problem of the dog potentially associating the correction with other aspects of the scenario than their behavior, like my dog's irrational fear of peoples' long bathroom trips, or (one of the most common issues I see), reactive/dog aggressive dogs getting crazier when given a prong collar correction. Much of the issue with the latter is timing, handlers fail to correct the dog while it is still "aware" enough to be responsible for its behavior/capable of learning, and once they are hyperfocused on the other dog, corrections do nothing other than add further fuel to the fire, but some of it may be the nature of the tool itself- as it delivers a "sharp" correction and is said to mimic a bite in the dog's mind.

Ok, I understand, but from my perspective I wonder if pure positive training can achieve as much reliability as balanced training can, because the dog may want to chase a car more than get praise for staying but he wouldn't rather get a correction than stay.
The inverse of this might be the dog that ignores even strong e collar corrections to chase the car, but can be taught instead to focus heel for a tennis ball when he sees a car. It really comes down to whatever motivator is strongest for the dog, and for dogs which are not easily motivated by food or toys force free training requires more creative thinking, whereas avoidance of discomfort tends to be universal to most (all?) living things.

What if you have a dog coming up the leash at you? Is it okay to use punishment to stop the situation immediately? No matter what you need to do to do so?
In my limited experience in the dog training/sports world, dogs (excluding fear aggressive dogs handled by strangers) coming up the leash on a handler tend to result from either redirection (which IMO is a temperament issue, rather than a training one), or dogs reacting to (or in anticipation of) a physical correction which has been issued. I think it's fine to deal with the immediate situation however you need to to keep yourself safe- though I am not sure "bringing the fight" to a dog who is seeing you as a potential combatant is a good idea in general, however, I think the more important thing in the long term is to look at why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again, even if it means reevaluating your training methods or choice of activity for your dog. For what it's worth, I consider willingness to come up the leash at all a temperament flaw, but my breed of choice is supposed to have exceptional bite inhibition under physical pressure, so I am somewhat biased.

As for myself, I'm not a dog trainer and my current dog has what I like to call "functional" obedience, meaning that he is easy to live with, behaves himself out in public, and can come with me and do lots of things without issue- he has minimal formal obedience training, and I have used a combination of methods, though I try to use +R as much as possible and rarely use leash corrections as much of our training is off leash. I'm lucky in that he'd jump the moon for a tennis ball or a scrap of food, so he tends to be easily motivated and I am spoiled :)
 

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I train my dog using positive methods and she's never felt a collar correction or is even yelled at nor has heard the word "eh-eh" or "no" in context of training. She's a rescue who was extremely fearful to the point that the first few weeks I had her, we had to be very hands off. Now? She's wonderful. Very reliable on and off leash. And knows many precision behaviors.

Positive training rocks, even with a challenging terrier x cattle dog mix from the animal shelter who is intense, fiery, reactive, and incredibly drivey and prone to redirect with her teeth... but at the same time extremely tender, flighty, and sensitive. She had every behavior issue under the sun and we've worked through it until this adrenaline junkie, quirky, crazy mutt has become the best dog in the world to me: Easy to live with, to take places, reliably obedient, wonderful, has an off-switch, and so sweet.
 

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I train my dog using positive methods and she's never felt a collar correction or is even yelled at nor has heard the word "eh-eh" or "no" in context of training. She's a rescue who was extremely fearful to the point that the first few weeks I had her, we had to be very hands off. Now? She's wonderful. Very reliable on and off leash. And knows many precision behaviors.

Positive training rocks, even with a challenging terrier x cattle dog mix from the animal shelter who is intense, fiery, reactive, and incredibly drivey and prone to redirect with her teeth... but at the same time extremely tender, flighty, and sensitive. She had every behavior issue under the sun and we've worked through it until this adrenaline junkie, quirky, crazy mutt has become the best dog in the world to me: Easy to live with, to take places, reliably obedient, wonderful, has an off-switch, and so sweet.
Me too. My warning to people I work with is "You can feel free to correct her, but I won't help you catch her when you need to leash her!" :rolleyes:
 
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