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  • A BYB is just someone breeding dogs for money, not to improve breed

    Votes: 18 54.5%
  • A BYB is someone whimiscally breeding - no titles / no health testing

    Votes: 9 27.3%
  • A BYB is someone breeding so called "working dogs"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A BYB is someone who breeds outside the standard - regardless of dogs' titles & health stats

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • A BYB is someone breeding dogs - no titles / health - for a replacement [e.g. farmer/hunter]

    Votes: 1 3.0%
  • Other - be civil please

    Votes: 6 18.2%

  • Total voters
    33
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Discussion Starter #1
Please, first, keep it civil. People are entitled to their own options - I don't want people bashing other people as what happened on another forum I visit [won't be from now on, they're rather close minded & more than a little biasedly ignorant]... however, the question of a BYB was brought up poorly by the original poster [worded wrongly].

But what IS a BYB? I said on the post about pit bulls, defining a BYB isn't like defining a puppy mill as everyone has a different mindset on what a BYB is.


To me a BYB has always been someone either whimsically breeding or breeding with purpose [designer dogs unfortunately] but ultimately the "goal" is not to improve the breed but rather to make quick, easy money. The dog may be health tested, it may not be. It might even be from good bloodlines. It might even be titled.


I mean to some upon learning Coffee's breed and his "history", they see him as nothing but an undesirable BYB dog. He is a Yakut Laika, he came from the actual Yakut people. Health testing their dogs and titling them in Westminster / Crufts sort of took a backseat to the people actually surviving. He's been evaluated since of course and according to my vet, with 24 years of experience, he's never seen a healthier dog [probably because nature was the "health tester" for a number of generations to perfect a bloodline; what dogs didn't survive or lagged simply weren't bred].



But give some thoughts. I've also included a poll of the basic BYB "definitions" for those that think their options may be a bit too strong / cause problems...
 

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People breeding dogs just for money. They will not breed to make the breed better (no genetic testing) and they will not care about the type of home the pup goes too.

I am curious as to what others have to say about this.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
They will not breed to make the breed better (no genetic testing)
See that's my thing - genetic testing. Is that the definition of a BYB? Or is it merely the purpose - make money.

Working dogs aren't always health tested are they BYB dogs? Dogs from remote / isolated populations like Coffee - human doctors can be a rare find in that area, so vets are less common - are they BYB dogs?
 

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I picked Breeding for money not to improve the breed.

The people who are doing that will not be doing genetic health test and the pups will be lucky if they get any vet care before going to their new home. They people are not breeding to improve the breed, the parent dogs will likely not have any titles at all. They may be breeding pure bred dogs, they may be breeding designer dogs, they may be breeding mutts. They do not care how often the female is bred. They do not care who the puppies go to, or what happens to them when they leave, they just care that the new owner can pay them for the puppy.

They are different from Hobby Breeders, those are more interested in the breed and improving it, they will probably have shown the dogs, or competed in some type of dog sport, they might have gotten the genetic test done on the parents, and will be getting the puppies vet care. They usually only have one or two females and may only breed them a few times. They are not interested in making money from the puppies.

Kennels may or may not be good, it depends on the breeder and how they run the kennel. They may be more on the line of a puppy mill, or they may be more like a Hobby Breeder.
 
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People who breed dogs to make quick cash, no health testing, no temperament testing and that can lead to really unstable dogs.
 

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It seems that BYB just means... a breeder whose practices the speaker (general speaker, not the OP in particular) doesn't agree with.

No breeder is 100% going to match any of our standards. I don't like and try not to use the term BYB anymore. I just find it really meaningless. Breeders are either someone I will or won't support financially or otherwise.

Making money in and of itself isn't a dirty sin to me honestly. I'm more interested in how a breeder makes breeding decisions (health and temperament), how they care for their breeding animals (both mentally and physically), and whether they back up their puppies/puppy buyers once the money has changed hands.
 

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See that's my thing - genetic testing. Is that the definition of a BYB? Or is it merely the purpose - make money.

Working dogs aren't always health tested are they BYB dogs? Dogs from remote / isolated populations like Coffee - human doctors can be a rare find in that area, so vets are less common - are they BYB dogs?

IMHO, and it's just my opinion, BYBers are not interested in the health of the dog, they just let them breed. Genetic testing is not the end all, be all, of determining a BYB, nor is a desire to make money, but they do play a large roll in it.

I'm more familiar with BYBers of cats then of dogs. Of the two that I knew well 1 was out to make money, he bred Bobtails, the other just indiscriminately bred domestic short hairs. The first was after money, he'd sell the kittens for however much he thought he could get, he did not get vet care for any of his cats or kittens, and he was more then willing to bred a cat who's kittens were always born with a certain health problem because some of them lived and the made him money. The first likewise rarely got vet care for the cats or kittens, the cats bred helter skelter, and upper respiratory infections regularly caused the kittens to lose eyes, and ear mites infected the whole colony. The kittens would also sometimes be born with birth defects. She'd give the kittens away or sell them for 10 or 20 dollars and if she could not find homes for them they'd stay with her and eventually they'd breed and the whole cycle would start again.
 
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It seems that BYB just means... a breeder whose practices the speaker (general speaker, not the OP in particular) doesn't agree with.

No breeder is 100% going to match any of our standards. I don't like and try not to use the term BYB anymore. I just find it really meaningless. Breeders are either someone I will or won't support financially or otherwise.

Making money in and of itself isn't a dirty sin to me honestly. I'm more interested in how a breeder makes breeding decisions (health and temperament), how they care for their breeding animals (both mentally and physically), and whether they back up their puppies/puppy buyers once the money has changed hands.

I think with the financial aspect of breeding good breeders will sometimes make money on the litter, but that money is in turn sank back into the dogs. Let's say that they make $4000 off of a litter that did not have any problems, then the next breeding the bitch gets into trouble giving birth and has to have an emergency c-section, well bye bye profit off the other litter and then probably some of the profit off the new one, if the puppies are sickly or the bitch gets mastitis or something they may end up running into the red for that litter. Whereas a BYB may not sink any money into either the bitch after all she's replaceable, or the puppies, and I'm aware that not all are like that, some BYB genuinely care and try to do their best by their dogs, but the worst of them are like that.
 

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I think with the financial aspect of breeding good breeders will sometimes make money on the litter, but that money is in turn sank back into the dogs. Let's say that they make $4000 off of a litter that did not have any problems, then the next breeding the bitch gets into trouble giving birth and has to have an emergency c-section, well bye bye profit off the other litter and then probably some of the profit off the new one, if the puppies are sickly or the bitch gets mastitis or something they may end up running into the red for that litter. Whereas a BYB may not sink any money into either the bitch after all she's replaceable, or the puppies, and I'm aware that not all are like that, some BYB genuinely care and try to do their best by their dogs, but the worst of them are like that.

Ok. I'm sure many people breeding to make money are breeders whose practices I wouldn't support. And I'm sure some are breeders whose practices I would support.

My point is more that it's not the deciding factor for me if I'm looking for a puppy or honestly really a factor at all. I'm more interested in their breeding practices than their finances.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
IMHO, and it's just my opinion, BYBers are not interested in the health of the dog, they just let them breed. Genetic testing is not the end all, be all, of determining a BYB, nor is a desire to make money, but they do play a large roll in it.
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So according to you anyone whom survives off of dogs is a BYB breeder. You obviously think Eskimos are BYB breeders than. Mongolian shepherds, BYB breeders. Egyptians and their Salukis, BYB breeders. The reindeer people are BYB breeders?

Obviously you think such people have easy access to vets, couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Yet as has been proven many times over - not just with Coffee but foundation imported Salukis - these "BYB" dogs are superior & healthier than more altered/pedigreed versions.

But without their "BYB" dogs, these people would not be capable of surviving. And unless you think vets existed from day 1, every single dog breed started as a BYB dog as health testing is only recent [last 50 years, no more].


A BYB in the general public maybe that basic but really, don't say pedigree or so called "legit" breeders health test through the nose. I've seen many AKC and CKC registered kennels that only health test for elbows, ignore hips; or test hips, ignore elbows. Or if eyes is an issue, ignore those.
 

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So according to you anyone whom survives off of dogs is a BYB breeder. You obviously think Eskimos are BYB breeders than. Mongolian shepherds, BYB breeders. Egyptians and their Salukis, BYB breeders. The reindeer people are BYB breeders?

Obviously you think such people have easy access to vets, couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

But without their "BYB" dogs, these people would not be capable of surviving. And unless you think vets existed from day 1, every single dog breed started as a BYB dog as health testing is only recent [last 50 years, no more].
To be fair, I don't think anyone here would think the term BYB is even remotely applicable or even relevant to anyone using dogs for survival.
 

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So according to you anyone whom survives off of dogs is a BYB breeder. You obviously think Eskimos are BYB breeders than. Mongolian shepherds, BYB breeders. Egyptians and their Salukis, BYB breeders. The reindeer people are BYB breeders?

Obviously you think such people have easy access to vets, couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Yet as has been proven many times over - not just with Coffee but foundation imported Salukis - these "BYB" dogs are superior & healthier than more altered/pedigreed versions.

But without their "BYB" dogs, these people would not be capable of surviving. And unless you think vets existed from day 1, every single dog breed started as a BYB dog as health testing is only recent [last 50 years, no more].


A BYB in the general public maybe that basic but really, don't say pedigree or so called "legit" breeders health test through the nose. I've seen many AKC and CKC registered kennels that only health test for elbows, ignore hips; or test hips, ignore elbows. Or if eyes is an issue, ignore those.
And exactly where did I say any of that? You assume an awful lot.:rolleyes:

I would not consider a farmer or rancher, who does nothing but basic vet care, breeding his best dogs in order to ensure that he has future working dogs, a byb. Nor would I consider people breeding sports dogs, like Flyball or agility dogs, or your Eskimos, and not doing genetic testing a byb. Did you ignore where I wrote " Genetic testing is not the end all, be all, of determining a BYB"? In other words not doing genetic testing does not automatically mean that a person is a byb. I also don't care if the people sell the puppies that they do not need and make some money.

Maybe you should follow your own advice "Please, first, keep it civil. People are entitled to their own options - I don't want people bashing other people as what happened on another forum I visit" and civilly ask me to explain my comment rather then jumping down my throat.
 

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Ok. I'm sure many people breeding to make money are breeders whose practices I wouldn't support. And I'm sure some are breeders whose practices I would support.

My point is more that it's not the deciding factor for me if I'm looking for a puppy or honestly really a factor at all. I'm more interested in their breeding practices than their finances.

I'm definitely the same. I was just trying to explain why I can understand people saying that the reputable breeders do not make money breeding. :)
 
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To me a BYB is someone who's sole purpose in breeding their dogs is to make money. They don't care if their dogs have health issues (such as congenital defects of the heart, of the spine, of the lungs, of the limbs, etc), if they have temperament issues (such as aggression, fearfulness, mental dysfunction, etc). These people do not breed for the betterment of the breed or species, they don't care if the pups will be better hunters, better retrievers, better companions.

They breed because they can make $1000 per pup and that money goes directly to their bank. These people do no prenatal care for the mother's, have no clue how dangerous whelping can be, and don't take the time to research what they are doing or have a mentor. They breed their females on every heat and euthanize a female or male when they are no longer useful.

They also, commonly, don't care who buys the pups nor when they go to their new homes. There is often no discussion with the new prospective owner about the breed, no prior exchanges of info, no home visits, no contracts to have the dogs return to them if they can't be kept because they don't care what happens.. These people, in MY opinion, are BYBers.
 

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So according to you anyone whom survives off of dogs is a BYB breeder. You obviously think Eskimos are BYB breeders than. Mongolian shepherds, BYB breeders. Egyptians and their Salukis, BYB breeders. The reindeer people are BYB breeders?

Obviously you think such people have easy access to vets, couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Yet as has been proven many times over - not just with Coffee but foundation imported Salukis - these "BYB" dogs are superior & healthier than more altered/pedigreed versions.

But without their "BYB" dogs, these people would not be capable of surviving. And unless you think vets existed from day 1, every single dog breed started as a BYB dog as health testing is only recent [last 50 years, no more].


A BYB in the general public maybe that basic but really, don't say pedigree or so called "legit" breeders health test through the nose. I've seen many AKC and CKC registered kennels that only health test for elbows, ignore hips; or test hips, ignore elbows. Or if eyes is an issue, ignore those.
Genetic testing is important for a lot of purebred dogs these days because there was a time era when people were inbreeding there dogs. They did not know much about genetics and so they just kept inbreeding them to create or continue a lot of breeds. Of course this resulted in a lot of genetic defects. So with a lot of purebred dogs it is important that they are tested because of the prominent genetic defects within the breed.

I agree there are some very healthy dogs that are bred that are not genetically tested. Usually these will be scarce breeds that never became very popular but were bred with specific purposes.

Also puppy mills have ruined a bunch of genetics within the dog world as well. All of this has to be token into consideration as well.

So often when people are breeding common breeds carelessly they end up with some very unstable dogs as a result.
 

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I don't really like the term BYB because it can mean so many things to so many different people.

It's reasonable to put so much work into a litter and want money out of it. It's not reasonable to put no work into a litter and want money out of it. That's what a dislike, people who put zero work into a litter of puppies and want money out f it. People who breed with money as their motivator and don't care about the puppies wellbeing or where they end up.
 

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To me, a BYB includes people who:

A) Breed without health testing or titling their dogs.
B) Have no real standard or goal for their line. Not necessarily what AKC or kennel club standards list, but just that they breed aimlessly without any purpose for their dog. Not work, not competition, not sport, not companionship. No real, objective criteria for what they want out of a litter or why they are breeding two dogs together.
C) Breed for reasons like believing in myths or for selfish purposes. IE they only want a puppy for themselves, or they like puppies, or they want their kids to see birth, or they think that female dogs are healthier/better tempered if they've had a litter.
D) Breed for money only.
 

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Genetic testing is important for a lot of purebred dogs these days because there was a time era when people were inbreeding there dogs. They did not know much about genetics and so they just kept inbreeding them to create or continue a lot of breeds. Of course this resulted in a lot of genetic defects. So with a lot of purebred dogs it is important that they are tested because of the prominent genetic defects within the breed.

I agree there are some very healthy dogs that are bred that are not genetically tested. Usually these will be scarce breeds that never became very popular but were bred with specific purposes.

Also puppy mills have ruined a bunch of genetics within the dog world as well. All of this has to be token into consideration as well.

So often when people are breeding common breeds carelessly they end up with some very unstable dogs as a result.

And despite health testing a lot of registered [or legit] breeders still breed "junk". You can't seriously tell me a pug is healthy. Or a bulldog is healthy. Or GSDs with their faulty hips are healthy - there's a reason why most police forces don't even give GSDs a second thought nowadays. Or a shar pei with the countless skin problems due to that excessively folded skin [or some bloodhounds and neo mastiffs bloodlines] are healthy.

Not when the original pug was healthy. The original bulldog was healthy. Working type GSDs - DDRs, Czechs, etc. - are healthier. Working type / original Shar Peis don't or rarely have those skin problems. Working bloodhounds and neos don't or rarely have those skin problems.

And that's just a breakdown off the top of my head, I could give you a rather huge list comparing what was to what is and the health difference between show dogs and their working varieties. Most working varieties are not so routinely health tested. And the prior versions that existed - before silly breeders started breeding for a standard [as if dogs are toys, all meant to look alike] - before wouldn't have had health testing.




It was either Westminster or Crufts I watched last year - the year before, maybe further back - where the husky won. The dog's hips were obviously wretched, it had a walk much like the "pee walk" young kids do, and was stiff in its movements and yet it was somehow "good".

Fiona the Dalmatian is an example. Call her a mutt if you like, so called "pure blood breeders" did despite how she's like 1/16th pointer of very strict breeding practices under the idea was to remove the urinary uric acid problems of Dalmatians [which for some is a torturous way of life]. It was tooth and nail to even get her into Crufts and yet despite how she is to improve the breed she was still considered no better than a street mutt.


The unfortunate thing is, is the inbreeding was too extreme - the Irish Setter was at one point so inbred that they suffer numerous mental problems due to it [not sure if that's changed] - with a number of breeds. And as most breeders / kennel clubs are against outcrossing to different breeds [it is possible, with a hell of a lot of hard work and a lot of begging really, to get permission by some clubs (I won't name which ones) to outcross but you need an explicitly detailed plan for them to even give you a second's worth of thought] it is extremely hard to correct those problems.

Even if you could get a perfect pure blood GSD for example - who is going to breed to him? The judges have become so used to the GSDs with the turtle backs that they'll rank him poorly [even if he's closer to the original standard] and not many would be interested in breeding because his titling is poor. So you get a small pool of properly shaped / good hipped GSDs in a massive population of poorly shaped / bad hipped GSDs - big deal. Won't change much.




So in a way legit / registered breeders are sort of like fancy BYBs. So you health test - if you have limited ways of improving, it won't change much.


Sorry if that's insulting but having travelled the world, quite literally, and seen many versions of different dog breeds that can be found in different areas of the world it is sometimes incredible what passes as 'good' amongst legit / pedigree dog breeders. Take a step back and you'd go wtf is that person thinking.



And as for David getting defensive, I think the chap's had too many people dish his dog. If you owned a pure blood of fancy bloodlines and people insisted on calling it a street mutt, I think you'd get your back up too.


@Rain - Yakuts aren't Eskimos by the way. Completely different people. depending on where in the Sakha you go Yakuts are more Europeans (though you also get Mongolian types), Eskimos are more thoroughly Asiatic / Mongolian. Buryats are more like Eskimos than Yakuts are... they live close by not the same either.

I've been to that area of Russia, and met those people [seeing as aside from sociology my 4 years of studies was on aboriginal populations all around the world].
 

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To me, a backyard breeder is someone who breeds with the intention of making money off their dogs. There isn't much thought to who the pups go to, what kind of care they'll get, or if the parents should even be bred.

To the OP, just because you're registered with the AKC/UKC/CKC doesn't mean you're not a BYB, I don't think anyone is saying that. There are plenty of members that get suspended/expelled for faulty records, negligent health tests etc. and many others who fly under the radar doing less than they should.

Working breeders, to me, are probably one of the best place to get a dog. Both my Aussie and Border Collie are registered, because their parents are purbred, but both (the BC in particular) are leaning towards the more working lines. I'll probably skip the whole Breeder situation in lieu of a farmer with working dogs for my next puppy.

People who are using their dogs for their "intended purpose" tend to be breeding good, solid, working dogs, because otherwise what would be the point? If you had a Border Collie with zero herding ability and you're a rancher with 1,000 sheep, you wouldn't be breeding that dog because it wouldn't do you any good.

Now, as someone mentioned, some breeds have gone really far away from what could be considered healthy. GSDs are the first dog that comes to mind for me, they've been over-bred to the point that it is quite difficult to find a nice GSD, and the ones you do find tend to be very driven, working lines, which wouldn't be suitable for your average joe.
 
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