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Discussion Starter #1
This is our new addition to the family, Ben. We adopted him of a re-homing website here in the Uk end of august, when he was 11 month old.
His previous owners wasn't very forthcoming with information, but they said, he is a Beagle cross Hound?
We think he looks like a Schiller Hound, but after some research, we cant find any breeders, clubs or anything here in the UK.
I was wondering what your thoughts are, if he is a pure breed, and maybe some hints and training tips for hunting dogs in general would be appreciated. I'm worried to let him off the lead, he will get the scent of something and be off.
Before we got him, i have owned Husky's. (Still got a husky Akita cross besides Ben).

Thank you so much :)
 

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How big is he? He looks like a Beagle/Black & Tan Mix but that would really depend on size. I know one who at 18 months was 40lbs but she had identical color and coat pattern as your pup.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
i think you all might be right. i got talking to someone in Sweden, over a schiller-hound club facebook site. schiller-hounds are mainly found in sweden, thats where they originate from. she said he is a little small, he is 51 cm to the shoulder, and schiller hound males are supposed to be about 55cm. And she said he has a beagle tail, apparently schiller hounds like to hold their tail allot closer to the body, never over the backline. whatever he is, he is georgeous. im just really interested how he ended here with us, as hounds and hunting dogs are rarely seen here. it would be so nice, if our doggys could talk! :)
 

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I'd also say that it is very sure that it is not a Schillerstövare if they're not common around you.

In German shelters they'd probably call it a "Schäfi / hunting dog"-mix. :eyeroll:because the chance theat there's Schäfi in there is a bit of Schäfi in the Mix is always very big.:rolleyes:
 

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At that height he may just be a slightly tall beagle or i am going to revise and go with a foxhound/beagle (with male beagles ranging from 33.02 to 38.1cm, for the 15in variety and the male foxhound ranging from 53.34 to 63.5cm).

He is gorgeous and I do believe takes after his beagle ancestry when it come to his coloring. Just look at this guy who has also the same coat markings: Individual Record at Bacon Creek Kennel
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'd also say that it is very sure that it is not a Schillerstövare if they're not common around you.

In German shelters they'd probably call it a "Schäfi / hunting dog"-mix. :eyeroll:because the chance theat there's Schäfi in there is a bit of Schäfi in the Mix is always very big.:rolleyes:
Im originally from germany, but have lived in the uk for 21 years now. in germany this kind of dog is allot more common, i have grown up on a smallholding, and all my parents neighbours was "hunters", my dad was more into his horses. id just love to know Bens history. where we are at the moment, it is quite urban. this lady i got talking to in sweden, said there is a small group of schiller breeders in poland, and there is more and more polisch people coming here to work, so im wondering if he came to the uk that way....he is a georgeous dog, whatever, and im really looking into training him now. we dont want to hunt with him, so i just want him to listen to the best of his ability. im considering classes.....he is about 15 onth old now, would it be a good idea?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
At that height he may just be a slightly tall beagle or i am going to revise and go with a foxhound/beagle (with male beagles ranging from 33.02 to 38.1cm, for the 15in variety and the male foxhound ranging from 53.34 to 63.5cm).

He is gorgeous and I do believe takes after his beagle ancestry when it come to his coloring. Just look at this guy who has also the same coat markings: Individual Record at Bacon Creek Kennel
i think he most proberbly has some beagle in him, because of how he holds his tail... :)
 

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Im originally from germany, but have lived in the uk for 21 years now. in germany this kind of dog is allot more common, i have grown up on a smallholding, and all my parents neighbours was "hunters", my dad was more into his horses. id just love to know Bens history. where we are at the moment, it is quite urban. this lady i got talking to in sweden, said there is a small group of schiller breeders in poland, and there is more and more polisch people coming here to work, so im wondering if he came to the uk that way....he is a georgeous dog, whatever, and im really looking into training him now. we dont want to hunt with him, so i just want him to listen to the best of his ability. im considering classes.....he is about 15 onth old now, would it be a good idea?
isn't there also a Polish or Czech hunting breed that can be black and tan?
If you have a lot of Polish people around you, then perhaps some of them brought purebreds or mmixes with them to England.

I'm a (smaller) city girl, so I had never much contact to "real" huntig dogs, the ones i know were mostly with spots of white, like a münsterländer or deutsch kurzhaar...my grand parents lived in small villages, but because of their occupation none of them was hunting.
One of the villages has a big forest and i was always a bit scared because the forest warden was a big and silent guy, that refused to speak anything else than deepest Plattdüütsch. ^^"

Never seen a Schiller stövare in person. :)
But they seem to bee cool dogs, for the right people.
 

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Many regional hound breeds have a distinctive coloration.

However, just because a hound type dog has that same coloration, that alone isn't evidence that it is all or even partly the regional hound breed that he matches.

Expert houndsmen work packs of dogs that are all basically the same color (or color combination) they identify individual dogs not by their coloration but by their physical structure. To them, who can identify the specific dogs all of the same breed by structure, telling if a dog 'looks like' breed X or Y is going to be possible, and it's not going to rely on coat color. I don't have that skill, I just know that there are those who have it, and that trying to identify a hound by coat color alone is an unsound way of going about it.

I also know that hound mixes tend to pop up all sorts of color combinations. While there aren't many purebred hounds here in the USA that are tan with black blankets aside from the bloodhound, there are plenty of hound mixes that are that color.
 

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@akodo1 I am pretty sure that that is a color/coat pattern for many purebred hounds found in the USA. I would think that Ben's coat patten would be more considered a black saddle then a blanket. If it were a blanket then he would have more of his body covered with the darker color and only his face, chest, and lower legs would be the lighter color. Since this is not the case I would say Ben is a tri-color with a black saddle (white toes, tan body, black saddle). A lot of hounds/coonhounds come in this color pattern both the tri-color or just the black saddle part. This list is actually quite extensive (here is just a few); Plott (can have a black saddle), Beagle (can have the black saddle and can be tri-colored, this is actually the most common), English Foxhound (can be tri-colored and have a black saddle), American Foxhound (can be tri-colored and have a black saddle), Harrier (can be tri-colored and have a black saddle), and Treeing Walker Coonhound (can be tri-colored and have a black saddle).

I have never heard that "Expert houndsmen work packs of dogs that are all basically the same color". I can't think where this would be the case unless they happen to be working a pack that is all the same breed (a breed with a very standard color) such as a Beagle or Foxhound. The houndsmen that I know own own a variety of breeds with a variety of standards to go with them.

I do agree that structure is a better way to try to identify breed, that goes for every dog not just hounds. You are able to rule out some breeds based of a combination of size characteristics, structure, coat color, and coat pattern (that is just how genetics work).

Please check you facts before stating things like "While there aren't many purebred hounds here in the USA that are tan with black blankets aside from the bloodhound" this is just not true.
@Arwen after talking to my boyfriend who is one of these "houndsmen" thinks Ben must ether be Beagle/English Foxhound (his long muzzle, his stance), Beagle/Treeing Walker Coonhound (less likely probably because of where you are but they have a minimum height of 50.8cm Treeing Walker Coonhound - PetGuide), or a Harrier (Harriers range from 48.26 to 53.34cm, they hold their tails much like a Beagle but their facial structure is longer and thinner, Harriers are actually common in the UK Harrier Dog Breed Information, Facts, Photos, Care | Pets4Homes) or Beagle/Harrier (since some characteristics resemble a Beagle and some hit on Harrier).
 

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Discussion Starter #15
thank you all for your input. :) after talking to a schiller club member i must say, im swaying away from the idea, that he is a schiller, just because of how he holds his tail, as i said before, and comparing pictures of schillers to Ben, they just seem bigger and chunkyer...i know at 15 month he has still got some chunking out to do, but not that much.
his brown bits dont seem dark enough either, but that cold be the light in pictures.
as nice as it would have been to own such a rare breed, im leaning more towards a beagle, cross some kind of englisch hound now.
i wish i could have thought of allot more questions to ask, when we went to meet him, but it was quite a sad situation, marriage/household break up, and it seemed the people present didnt want to talk much...
he is a beautyfull boy, no matter what. and he has his forever home with us. im just thinking if you know what breed you are dealing with, its easier, as you can take characteristics into account. thank you again. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
and thank you for the link Tuckersmom, its funny, as we actually found Ben on that website. must be a sign. :)
 

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@Tucker'smom

I don't think there is a definitive line between saddle and blanket. On a GSD I'd expect that much black to be described as a saddle not a blanket, but each person is going to have a different spot for drawing the line.

I didn't see any white initially. Carefully looking now, i see white on one foot and possibly a touch on the back underbelly. I am not sure if a bit of white on one foot is enough for a dog to be considered a tri-color.

If it is enough to be a tri-color, yes, there are a lot of breeds that are common here in the USA that are tri-colored.

However, as it was identified as possibly a schiller hound, one of the few tan with black saddle/blanket colored hounds, I was thinking of that color and going through the list of common hounds in my head.

both types of foxhound = tricolor, rare to see a bicolor
harriers and beagles = tricolor, rare to see a bicolor
american/english coonhound = redtick, bluetick, tricolor with ticking.
treeing walker = tricolor, some bi colors, but not common
redbone coonhound = red
bluetick coonhound = bluetick
plott hound = brindle
Black and Tan coonhound = black with tan points, not really tan with a blanket/saddle.

I'm trying to think of the french hounds that have some popularity here, and the various Blue de Gascognes (bluetick) Porcelains (mainly white), and some black-and-white ones are what I can come up with.

Aside from the bloodhound i'd be interested in hearing what hounds I am forgetting that are bicolor tan with black.

Additionally, when talking houndsmen I was mainly thinking of large established hound packs in the UK, USA, and France that are for gentrified hunting, following a big pack of hounds on horseback. These tend to all be the same breed of hound, the same subset/type within that breed, and often a lot of the individuals are related to eachother so the pack in general has a very unified appearance.



 

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Discussion Starter #18
apart from anything else, i find it quite sad, to have a pack so big, that the dogs loose their individuality. i wonder if they all have names?
i guess the owners can separate them. and yes, ben is registered at the vets as a tricolour. he has 3 white paws and a very small medallion.
 

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apart from anything else, i find it quite sad, to have a pack so big, that the dogs loose their individuality. i wonder if they all have names?
i guess the owners can separate them. and yes, ben is registered at the vets as a tricolour. he has 3 white paws and a very small medallion.
I don't think these dogs lead a sad life.
even when there are a lot of them I'm very sure the hunter/handler can tell the differences in temperament and bodytype.
Im my area there is a woman that breeds Golden Retrievers, she's got around 10 GRs at home and for me they all look the same except for different coloured collars. She can tell them apart easily and seems to have a very special bond with every single one. :)
the Hunter/Owner cares for them, the dogs have a lot of social contact and they're allowed to do what they're bred for.
there are dogs in this world that lead a much sadder life.

In the past it was also not unusual to have the dogs belong and be cared for by different persons and only have them all together, when they're hunting.

Some people say this way of hunting is not the most humane for the prey though.
And it is pretty expensive to care for all that dogs, the horses and stuff...I think I read somewhere that this type of hunting is getting less common, compared to hunting with a smaller group or a single allrounder hunting dog (like Viszlas or DKH for example).
Anyone here in the form that knows more about that topic?:ponder:
 

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From my understanding for it to be considered "traditional tan points" the tan marking must be restricted to:

  • The pips above the eyes
  • Sides of the muzzle
  • Pips of cheeks
  • Front of the neck (two triangular patches on chest)
  • Lower legs and feet
  • Patch under tail
  • Penciling/black marks may occur on toes
Since all Saddle/Blanket coat patterns are really just modifies of the tan point gene, atat, anyway all these does would really be considered bi-color black-and-tan unless you were going into specifics.

Redbone (Not a breed standard so not sure if we can count this one):
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Creeping Tan pattern
(Redbone by breed,[illy1996| Page 2 | Farmerama EN])
Afghan:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Traditional Pan Points
( [Aboukir High Priority - AHI Afghan Hound Pedigree database][Afghan Hounds])
Beagle:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Saddle pattern
( [Beagle Colors | Hound Coloring, Marking and Terminology])
Basset:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Creeping Tan pattern & Black muzzle because of Mask allele (Em)
([Basset Hound Colors: What color is the Basset Hound's coat?])
Bloodhound:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Saddle pattern & Black muzzle because of Mask allele (Em)
([Bloodhound])
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Creeping Tan pattern & Black muzzle because of Mask allele (Em)

Black and Tan Coonhound:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Traditional Pan Points
([American Black and Tan Coonhound Club])
Dachshund:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Traditional Pan Points
([FAQ Colors.Pics])
English Foxhound:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Creeping Tan pattern
([English Foxhound : Dog Breed Selector : Animal Planet])
Saluki:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Traditional Tan Points
([Saluki Dog Breed Information - American Kennel Club])
Whippet:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Traditional Tan Points
([Color Genetics])
Greyhound:
Black-and-Tan (Bi-color), Creeping Tan pattern
([About Greyhounds])

AKC Standards:
Afghan: All colors permissible
Basset: Any recognized hound color is acceptable
Beagle: Any true hound color
Black and Tan Coonhound: Coal black with rich tan markings
Bloodhound: black and tan
Dachshund:
Smooth:Two colored- black with rich tan markings
Wirehaired: black and tan
Longhaired:Two colored- black with rich tan markings
English Foxhound: Any good "hound color"
Harrier: Any color
Plott: Rare golden tan with black saddle
Saluki: black and tan
Whippet and Greyhound: Color is immaterial

Hound Colors are Black, Tan, and White, or any combination of the three.

I found it interesting that during my research on the genetics of it all most Black-and-Tan (bi-color) dogs are born are Traditional Tan Points and as they grow become Creeping Tans or Saddles if that is what their genetics are.

Canine Colour Index
https://images.akc.org/pdf/judges/groups/Hound_Group.pdf
Coat Color Genetics The breed standard, as dictated by the ILWC, states that ?Any color, markings or combination thereof? are accepted. Because of this the Longhaired Whippet comes in an exciting variety of colors and patterns, which I will do my bes
 
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