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5K views 43 replies 12 participants last post by  McCourt 
#1 ·
I think the saddest and most embarrassing thing about having a reactive puppy isn't when she barks at dogs. It's when she barks at kids. Or when kids ask to pet her and I have to say no. It's so sad to me. The trainer says she does this out of excitement but it doesn't really matter the reason. The more trainers we have and the more classes we attend just brings me closer to the realization that I don't know if there's hope for her. I don't know if she'll ever be able to be calm or channel her excitement. Ugh. We've worked so hard.
 
#3 ·
I say puppy but she's 12 months. Which I know is still a puppy but she's nearly full grown. I will say that tonight she didn't bark at the little girl who wanted to pet her. Which is an improvement. But I hate to see the disappointment. I love to share my dogs and give others positive associations with animals. I just hate that I can't do that with her.
 
#4 ·
I'm sorry. It is hard. I had a reactive dog. We did a lot of training and and at a certain point, I moved into management techniques, and yes, I lost hope for big changes. And it was ok! We had 15 good years together and I adored him, quirks and all

If she's still a puppy don't lose all hope prematurely though!
 
#5 ·
My whole fear the entire time I've had her is that I'll fail her and have to give her back to the rescue. I have small children in my family and she's an 80 pound powerful, reactive puppy. Not a good combination. But she's been bounced around so much and we've been working so hard. It's like she knows what's expected. She's smart. But she can't control her impulses.
 
#6 ·
Hang in there! I can feel how desperately you want to help her. What is her absolute favourite thing treat wise? Is there one child that you can "use" to train her. the idea is if you can get her to associate this child with this treat and get her behaviour suitable just towards this one child. then move to another?
 
#10 ·
The best piece of advice I've ever received from a trainer is to "train the dog in front of you". If that means she's the kind of dog that needs separation from kids, or isn't pet by strangers, or even family members other than you for now, so be it.
There are far too many dogs (and people!) out there doing things they really have no joy in because people thought it was what they "should be doing" with that dog.
I have an example with both my dogs. Levi (my Aussie) is a good jumper. I wanted desperately to do dock diving with him. It looked so fun, and Aussies seem to do really well at the sport. As soon as we tried to teach him to jump in the water, I could tell he wasn't enjoying it. He did it, because I asked him to, but he didn't have a ton of joy in it. So I decided to do things he did love, like agility and rally instead.
Heidi (my Border Collie) was raised the exact same way as Levi. Puppy classes, heavy socialization to dogs and people. She's never had a bad experience, but she doesn't really care for strange dogs. She likes to control their movements, doesn't like them touching anything she deems "hers" (picnic table, her people, a pine cone) and as a result, she isn't a very good dog park dog. I recognize this, and we only go to the park during off-hours or meet for play dates with friends. We also have to be very careful at pet festivals that no one gets in her space.

Everyone's dog has something that makes them no longer the "perfect" dog. (Even something as small as getting a Border Collie that isn't fast enough). Keep working with her reactivity and impulse control, but recognize that maybe being incredibly social is just going to be too hard for her.
 
#11 ·
Thanks! No, they don't live with me but I've been very isolated from my family for the past few months bc of her. I thought we could get her excitement under control but very little luck thus far. She bloodied my grandmas arm twice from jumping/pawing. Having a dog that kids can't interact with isn't realistic for me. That screams liability. Unfortunately there are kids in public that will just come up to your dog. I don't want to be on edge every time I take her out. My sister is having a baby in Dec and I'm very worried about my puppy and the baby.

I keep giving her time extensions of when I'll make a decision. At first it was until the end of summer break. Then it was her first birthday (mid Sept). Now I don't know when it is. Her group class ends next wk. Im going to ask the trainer what other options we have. I have hundreds of dollars in training in her. I just feel like if I fail her and give her back then no one will adopt her and put this much work into her. But then again, maybe her excited reactivity wouldn't bother others like it bothers me.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Look into the Gentle Leader. That is probably the one tool that allowed us to keep our dog. But only with a trainer's guidance

I agree, it is hard managing a dog like that. We exercised ours mostly in our enclosed yard but he was small. I can see how your big dog would need those walks.

Even if you rehome, remember all of your work isn't a waste, she will carry it with her. And you can keep her and still put her up for adoption through a rescue. You and her may not be the right fit right now, but there absolutely may be someone who wouldn't be as bothered by her reactivity or perhaps is in a different life stage or living situation where they could accommodate her.

Just curious what breed is she?
 
#14 · (Edited)
It takes a lot of time and energy to train any dog (I am in the middle of it right now with a puppy, it can be exhausting) but the motivation is to have that companion for many years
Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you are just not that committed to making this work with her? Not that you haven't been putting in work and patience, but that long-term commitment
Which is fine, it happens. Sometimes there is a mismatch with a dog and human for any number of reasons
If she is only a year old and she is beautiful, maybe contact a lab rescue group and try to rehome her while she is young
From what you write, I think there are still solutions to explore but it may be more than you are willing or able to do right now....and that's ok, truly. It's good to know our limits with dogs.
 
#15 ·
I can't rehome her and wouldn't - it was in my contract that she goes back to the rescue. And who wants to adopt a dog that's reactive? I wouldn't have had I known. There aren't many people who would knowingly sign up for this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not committed to making it work". If you mean that I am not committed to keeping her regardless of all circumstances. Then that's a fair assessment. Do I WANT to rehome her? No. But at the same time I can't imagine having a dog that can't be integrated in my life or family. Not to mention future children. I can't stay away from my family or kennel her everytime I want to go home to visit. I can't walk on pins and needles everytime she needs to go to the vet, walk on a leash, or when I want to have people over in my own house. I've been willing to live like that for the past five months while I've literally spent hundreds of dollars and hours on her training. But that's not a long term situation that I can deal with.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I'm so sorry, I can see I may have offended you. And if I did, please accept my deepest apology from the bottom of my heart. The last thing I would ever want to do is upset someone who is in a stressful situation like you are in.

I was sincerely coming from a place of experience and compassion for you and the dog and I can tell you care for her very much. If that didn't come through on my comment, then that is 100% my fault and I should have been more careful.

I hope the best for both of you.
 
#18 ·
@MorganE84 - it's funny, your dog's description reminds me of a young Lab that is in our obedience class. She's a barky thing, super excitable, and loves to jump. I'd bet if someone were to take her on a walk in the bark she'd bark quite a bit.

Would I be willing to take that on in a dog? Absolutely. It's funny, before Chisum I thought of reactivity as a dirty word and an awful thing, but I've experienced the different types and I can deal with frustration/excitement. It's annoying sometimes, sure, but for me it's not impossible and is so much easier to work with than fear.

But, as @Shandula said above, reactive dogs - regardless of the type - aren't for everyone and there's no shame in that.

With Chisum, I deal. Thankfully we live on a farm and he'll most likely stay there with my parents when I leave. I had this talk with our obedience instructor and, while he's very impressive and actually does really well in the class, she wondered if he'd be happier there than in the higher stress situation of "town".

He's made amazing breakthroughs and I am so, so proud of him but sometimes it's just situation to situation management and there are steps backward, sure.

BUT at the end of the day, pain in the rear or not, he's my little boy. It's easy to get frustrated with him but we are totally bonded and I love him to pieces. The bond didn't come easily, granted - like you, I wanted a dog that I could take anywhere and that could move with me when I left and it took awhile to mourn that wasn't the dog I got. But at the end of the day, I absolutely love the dog I got :)
 
#20 ·
@MorganE84 - it's funny, your dog's description reminds me of a young Lab that is in our obedience class. She's a barky thing, super excitable, and loves to jump. I'd bet if someone were to take her on a walk in the bark she'd bark quite a bit.

Would I be willing to take that on in a dog? Absolutely. It's funny, before Chisum I thought of reactivity as a dirty word and an awful thing, but I've experienced the different types and I can deal with frustration/excitement. It's annoying sometimes, sure, but for me it's not impossible and is so much easier to work with than fear.

But, as @Shandula said above, reactive dogs - regardless of the type - aren't for everyone and there's no shame in that.

With Chisum, I deal. Thankfully we live on a farm and he'll most likely stay there with my parents when I leave. I had this talk with our obedience instructor and, while he's very impressive and actually does really well in the class, she wondered if he'd be happier there than in the higher stress situation of "town".

He's made amazing breakthroughs and I am so, so proud of him but sometimes it's just situation to situation management and there are steps backward, sure.

BUT at the end of the day, pain in the rear or not, he's my little boy. It's easy to get frustrated with him but we are totally bonded and I love him to pieces. The bond didn't come easily, granted - like you, I wanted a dog that I could take anywhere and that could move with me when I left and it took awhile to mourn that wasn't the dog I got. But at the end of the day, I absolutely love the dog I got
One of the reasons I've fought so hard for her is that I know she's a sweet dog. She's a sweet dog that loves everyone and dogs. She's so excited to go places and meet new people. But it doesn't come across that way when she's barking and bouncing around. The kids bother me the most cos I hate that they can't pet her. But she'd jump on them.

I'm going to ask my trainer tonight. Maybe she needs to repeat this group class again. Maybe he thinks she could maybe try a regular class. Or maybe he'll have other suggestions. We'll see.
 
#24 ·
The trainer suggested that Winnie be entered in the normal obedience training class. Right now she's in a group class specifically for reactive dogs. That scares the bajesus out of me but he was confident that it would be good for her. Accommodations could be made for her if need be - i.e. blinders. He said the only way for her to learn to deal with her excitability is to put her in those situations. And I agree. So many trainers want to coddle them through reactivity and that's not me and it's not her trainer.

Unfortunately we'll have a different trainer for the next class but he said he would recommend one for us.

And she did amazing last night. Very excited and wiggly but no barking at all. Even when the whole class erupted in three-full minutes of barking. Winnie sat as I continuously C/T.
 
#25 ·
@MorganE84 I 100% agree with not coddling but also not pushing over the threshold either because then you are just going to end up more frustrated and your dog will regress not make progress. It is a balancing act of pushing limits without pushing to far.

Don't let it scare you or make you nervous, because your pup will pick up on that. You can do this. :thumbsup:
 
#26 ·
@MorganE84 I 100% agree with not coddling but also not pushing over the threshold either because then you are just going to end up more frustrated and your dog will regress not make progress. It is a balancing act of pushing limits without pushing to far.

Don't let it scare you or make you nervous, because your pup will pick up on that. You can do this.
Yeah, I don't want to push her in without being able to swim - but I also don't want to sit back and look at the water from a distance while I talk up how great it is. In the reactive rover class we take baby steps - first starting with quick looks at other dogs and then several weeks later we're walking across the room. But if they escalate and bark then we just let them bark. He says if they bark - ignore it. When they make the decision to shut up then C/T. Last night we waited out two dogs barking and losing their minds. They weren't removed or coddled. We all just sat there and they eventually quieted and we got along with class. I specifically asked if we're at the park and our dog starts barking should we move them. He said as long as everyone's safe to just let them bark because any reaction by the owner to their bark could inadvertently reinforce it.

And that's worked for Winnie. She barked at the instructor the first day. He stood in front of her as she wiggled, barked, jumped, and carried on. As soon as she sat - he C/T. They did this exercise several times in one session and she hasn't barked at him since. She still reacts by wiggling but she learned quickly that getting attention and/or food from him wouldn't happen by barking.
 
#27 ·
How much exercise is she getting?

Have you tried to wear her out a bit before taking her out for a walk, or to the park?

Have you tried to teach her an incompatible behavior to barking and jumping for her to greet people?

Considering she's only a year, she's now got TONS of energy, an adult dogs size and strength, but very little impulse control. I'm just crazy enough to think that she sounds like a ton of fun, but then I raised and lived with a hyperactive terrier for over 17 years. My boy took 3 years before he began to settle down, so you may have a ways to go before your girl is more calm, but you can channel that energy into constructive activities so that she'll stop driving you batty.

I do agree that there are people who will take reactive dogs. I knew my current dog was reactive when I got him. While it wasn't love at first sight with us I figured that I could help him, so what the heck. 2 years later and he's my baby boy, I can't imagine life without him and while he's not over his reactivity (his is due to fear), he's a lot better then he used to be. So if you simply decide you cannot keep your girl then don't despair of her ever having another home, give that she's just over friendly I'm betting someone will take her.
 
#28 ·
That's exactly it. I have an 80 lb puppy. It's hard to exercise her the way she should be bc she acts so nutty on walks. We have a back yard but she's scared of it sometimes (no clue). She has been fetching toys this week but in weeks past has been scared to go in the yard.

Her trainer thinks she's a blast. Obviously her behavior is obnoxious but it can be cute. She does a whole body wag when she wants to greet someone. She comes into class so excited - bowing, wagging, bouncing. We joke and say that she brings the party. But her size makes her potentially dangerous to young kids and old people
 
#30 ·
I guess we are teaching her an alternate behavior because she has to sit to get attention. Until she sits - she is the wall. So she can bark and carry on - but as soon as that butt hits the ground she gets a treat. This is how I trained her to stop being crazy in the crate. The first week I had her, she set off my house alarm! Because everytime she thought she was getting out of her crate she would jump around, paw, dance, wag her tail, and make the biggest commotion. Now she sits. And I just had to wait her out. I never told her to sit. I just gave her a functional reward when she chose to sit.

Looking back - it took a while to get that initial reaction to stop. She would still have moments of crazy for 5-10 seconds and then sit. And this is something we practice 2-3 times a day. So it CAN be done but I think it may take a while. Hopefully maturity will help.
 
#31 ·
What kind of dog is she?

If she's a larger breed, she probably won't reach 'mental' maturity until 2 years, sometimes even 3+. I am not a trainer and can only speak from personal experience after observing my own dog. He's a lab and I rescued him at 13 months. He didn't have any obedience training but he picked it up and quickly learned/mastered basic commands and their nonverbal equivalents. The only thing that we couldn't train out of him was his jumpiness. Every time we met someone new, he would jump all over them! We tried different strategies... making him 'Leave it,' putting him into a sit and stay, prong collar, kneeling introductions, plenty of exercise, and 'Off,' ignoring him and turning away. Absolutely nothing worked! But when he hit about 18 months, the jumping just stopped. Now he's 2 and greets people very nicely. The only time he will jump is if someone excites him (usually men) or if someone holds their hands up (like they have a treat). However, in the latter case he only rises up on his hind legs to sniff their hand and doesn't make contact.

I agree with the head harness suggestion. My boy developed barrier frustration when on-leash as of late and I'm pretty sure it was brought on by the prong collar. I switched him to a head harness to better keep his attention on me and have been working on solidifying his 'Watch me' in high-distraction areas. So far I haven't seen any of the snarling, leash biting, or jumping he displayed when seeing another dog with the head halter. I tried the Gentle Leader but switched to the Perfect Pace. The PP attaches at the back of the head instead of under the chin and attaches to the collar for extra security. I've also read that some dogs mind it less than the Gentle Leader, although my dog never had a problem with either.

As for the reactivity, was she a rescue? Is it possible she was abused or tormented by kids before you got her? Is the reactivity limited to barking or is it accompanied by fearful body language and growling? I would try to use high-value treats (like hot dog) on walks to associate children with positive things. When she doesn't bark and remains calm, allow the child to approach and maybe not touch her. Once she becomes accustomed to children = fun/positive things, allow them to touch her. Monitor her body language carefully throughout these interactions and remove her once she grows uncomfortable.

Another thing, how do the kids approach her? Are they noisy? Do they run up to her? If they approach a certain way, it could just be they make her nervous.

Lastly, if nothing works, it may just be she doesn't like children. There are plenty of dogs who are not comfortable around kids and who could really blame them? Sometimes they dislike strange kids but love those in their family.
 
#32 ·
Sorry, I just saw the post where you said she is a lab/mastiff mix.

Anyways, I'll recommend the Perfect Pace head harness again based on what you said about your dog and the Gentle Leader. You can get it in leather or woven material and it comes in a bunch of colors. It also comes as a leash/head halter combo.

It sounds like she needs more exercise. I know all about this from dealing with my dog, especially when he was younger. Do you have any place where she can run off-leash? That's the best exercise for them. Walks simply are not enough, no matter how long. When he was younger, Teller needed 2-3 hours of intense off-leash exercise 4-5 days a week. I know it can be tough with such a large and wild dog, but I promise if you exercise her and that truly is the issue, you will see a different dog in the house. We certainly did. If T didn't get enough exercise, he would literally jump in place and run full-tilt around the house in circles, bowling over everything and everyone in his path. His house behavior also got better with age and now he is calm for the most part while inside but knows he can let loose when outside or when we go down to the river for some off-leash time. You mentioned she's afraid of the backyard? Have you tried playing with her out there. Most of the time you can't count on these dogs to exercise themselves, so you need to play with them or give them a stimulating activity to work at. Also, have you spoken with a trainer about getting her a 'job' and enrolling her in a high-energy sport like dock diving, agility, flyball, rally-o, or something similar?
 
#42 ·
In a training class I took with my dog, we were taught a couple of different exercises for dogs that bark on leash.

The exercise that was relevant to me and Delilah was LAT and is used for creating positive associations with the trigger for dogs that are fearful or anxious. Worked like a charm when we lived in downtown Burlington- by the end of the year I was able to walk her on the busiest streets and take her to farmers markets and festivals. I noticed you mentioned LAT but it also seems like your dog already has positive associations with people and just really wants to greet them? Have you found LAT to work anyways, or are you looking for new things to try? Do you use it to incorporate rewarding calm behavior instead of just conditioning new associations with a trigger?

The other exercise we were taught might be helpful for you. I don't know your exact situation but you could always try it and see if it helps or not. It's for dogs that already have positive associations with people but still bark or jump out of frustration or excitement.

You put your dog in a sit by your side. You have a volunteer start at a distance where you dog won't react. You feed your dog small pieces of high value treats while the volunteer walks towards you. If your dog breaks the sit, even if it's not barking or lunging, but if they even get up, you stop feeding and the person immediately turns around and walks away. At first the volunteer might not be able to get close but you can repeat this exercise as frequently as you want/need and your dog should start calming down.

That wasn't taught to me as a protocol to follow on a walk, but rather an exercise you can do to teach polite greeting behavior.

My trainer said that it's the worse aversive in the world for a lab though, hahaha. "The cookies stop and the people go away."


I understand how frustrating it can be at times though. My dog is reactive and fearful. Like some other posters with reactive dogs, my previous dog was perfectly behaved. It really changed my perspective on training and owning dogs. It can be exhausting when you have one that you're constantly training and managing, especially when you see other people with well adjusted, well behaved dogs that they've put in less effort, time, and money with. But it gets better. There are set backs, but keep it up and there will be improvement, even if it's not immediately apparent. I don't always see it, but when friends or family tell me how much better behaved my dog is than how she was a few months ago, it's really encouraging. You and your dog are learning together.
 
#43 ·
Winnie had an awesome day yesterday. We went to the dog park off-leash - she appropriately greeted everyone and was great with some kids in the park. You can tell she loves kids so I'm glad they were there.

I had a party with about 8-10 people last night. I was nervous about Winnie. I was expecting her to bark. A lot. I was expecting to have to tether her. But I didn't. She barked when a car pulled up but once people came outside - no barking. Some wiggling and minor jumping but she was easily redirected with treats. She got to stay out the entire time. She got lots of pets and belly rubs.

Days like yesterday give me hope that she'll be ok. We still have a lot of work left on the leash but I'm glad she's starting to function better when people visit.
 

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