Dog Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So we have a 4 year old that lives with us as does her mother. Our one dog Jules has recently begun to display resource guarding with only the child and only with toys. Today if I had not been home she would of gotten bit. She completely ignored Jules's warning growl and was also all up in Jules's face. She has been told multiple times by everyone not to get in the dogs faces. Part of the problem I think is that the child is always messing with the dogs in someway through out the day. For my dog that is no big deal but Jules just likes to lay down and relaxe while chewing on a toy. Yet the child takes her having a toy as an invitation to play. She takes the toy and throws it then my dog who loves fetch and tug gets the toy. Or she takes the toy and teases them with it and never gives it back.

The problem i am running into is that the childs mother is often asleep leaving her to roam the house on her own. We have told her not to do this but she is lazy and likes to sleep all day. I have tried to talk to and teach her about the proper way to interact with the dogs but quite frankly I have given up. She just blantly won't listen to me or anyone including her mother. Part of the problem I think is that there are no consequences for her doing the wrong thing. I am not a parent and I do not tell people how to parent I include this because I really don't think working with the child will solve anything.

I would like any ideas on if I can work with Jules at all? I would just crate her but I am worried that will just have the child teasing her in the crate possibly? If anyone has any advice on any of this it is welcome. I do not want Jules to get in trouble because the child refused to listen. Also they are "supposed" to be moving at the end of this month but she said that last month. We are working to get them out but my mom is to nice and won't just have them evicted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Honestly, in this kind of a situation, I would try to arrange it so that the dog is never out when the kid can get to her unless you can supervise. You could try confining her to a room instead of crating, so she has a little more room to roam but the kid can't get bit. I would also make a point of not having toys/chews out unless you are there and/or the child is not. You might consider the dog wearing a muzzle if you worry she will respond to the child's teasing by biting.

In this kind of a situation, if the dog bites the child, it will be consider your fault, and you will be liable, even though the kid has a history of teasing the dog and the mother is incapable of managing her. Depending on the kind of person the mother is, this could leave you in a bad situation if she is a litigious type.

Other than managing the situation so the dog and child aren't together unless someone is watching, I don't have any suggestions, because as you said its not your kid and no one seems capable of controlling the child very effectively. A child that age could be SERIOUSLY injured by the dog, and even though she sounds like a pain, she is still a child and the dog is still a dog. If I were in that situation, I would honestly rather my dog have a less than spectacular month or two with a little bit too much time crated until the family is out vs risk the dog biting the child (however justified I might feel that bite was) because ultimately I do think that the child needs to be protected over the dog.

ETA: part of the issue is that with resource guarding, you work to teach the dog they don't need to worry about what they have being taken away and that if it is they will get something even better in trade. You can't do this in this situation, because the kid is so young, doesn't even seem receptive to learning about how to get along with the dog, and especially because it isn't your child or your family member. The dog DOES have to fear the child taking it, because the child WILL take it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,398 Posts
The problem with trading up is it's appeasement and never really cures the problem especially when one runs out of an "even better" item to bribe the dog with.

I've always trained that every resource the dog has access to, is mine, there are no negotiations or placating. Dog never has to worry about losing something which it never had "ownership" of in the first place.

How strong is the dog's "drop" obedience?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
We have talked about putting her in my mothers room while we are at work. I would just have her in the back yard which she loves but it has been way to hot for that. Maybe if we put a lock on the door so the child can not get into the room? She thankfully has no other problem with other kids just the one that lives with us. I actually think that she will love being away from the child.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The problem with trading up is it's appeasement and never really cures the problem especially when one runs out of an "even better" item to bribe the dog with.

I've always trained that every resource the dog has access to, is mine, there are no negotiations or placating. Dog never has to worry about losing something which it never had "ownership" of in the first place.

How strong is the dog's "drop" obedience?
Her drop is very good and she has no problem with me or my parents taking the toy away from her. We also do not always give it back but we never tease her with it and not throw it. We take it, put it up and move on. She has no problem with this so I am thinking its the teasing and getting her hyped up and then not getting the toy that has cause this reaction with the child. I also think she is just plain tired of the child being all over her all the time through out the day unless someone is home to make her leave them alone.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
502 Posts
I think dogs feel much more threatened by kids, because they're on their level and generally oblivious to body language and personal space. Unless you can get the kid to respect the dog and stay away, then they just need to be separated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
We have talked about putting her in my mothers room while we are at work. I would just have her in the back yard which she loves but it has been way to hot for that. Maybe if we put a lock on the door so the child can not get into the room? She thankfully has no other problem with other kids just the one that lives with us. I actually think that she will love being away from the child.
Posted via Mobile Device
I think that is a wonderful idea. My only misgiving is if you give the key to the child's mother, she will surely forget and leave it open, but if there is no key on the premises in case of a fire, it will be difficult to save the dog.
I hope they move out at the end of the month.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think that is a wonderful idea. My only misgiving is if you give the key to the child's mother, she will surely forget and leave it open, but if there is no key on the premises in case of a fire, it will be difficult to save the dog.
I hope they move out at the end of the month.
This is the only thing that has stopped us with putting a lock on the door but we have decided to go ahead with the lock. I am really hoping they move out this time but they may not have a choice if the house sells.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
The problem with trading up is it's appeasement and never really cures the problem especially when one runs out of an "even better" item to bribe the dog with.

I've always trained that every resource the dog has access to, is mine, there are no negotiations or placating. Dog never has to worry about losing something which it never had "ownership" of in the first place.

How strong is the dog's "drop" obedience?
Someone recently described the trading exercise to me in a human relatable way that really sold it on me. Not pushing it on you, but I would like to share it with you. I thought it was really awesome.

Let's say you have $50 in your pocket and I come up to you and just take it from you. I might give it back, but I probably won't. Nope I won't. Next time I come up to you and you have $50 in your pocket, what are you going to do? You're going to hide it, not let me have it, run away, and if I keep persisting to take it, you're gonna get a little angry. AKA, resource guarding.

Okay, another situation now.

Let's say you have that $50 in your pocket and I come up to you and trade you $100 for it. Next time I come up to you, you're going to love it, because you might double your money by my trade!

Sure, there's still the possibility that one day I might come over and I won't have $100 that day and I'll have to just take the $50 from you, but you'll be more apt to give it up, because of a much higher chance that you'll get $100.

I don't think dogs really understand ownership. If the dog is allowed to have it, it's his in that moment until you take it away. The purpose of the trading exercise is to make it a smooth and enjoyable process for the dog for the chance they might get something better in return. Even when you teach a dog to "drop it" theres should still be a trade going on in the early training exercises. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
Just had an idea for you when I read about locking the dog in your mothers room, giving the key to the childs mother, risk of fire..etc.

Check out some "Child door locks", like these.

https://www.amazon.com/2-Pack-Child...d=1468241345&sr=1-7&keywords=child+door+locks

No key, mother can easily get the dog in case of a fire, keeps the child out. I've never used these, so I can't really talk about how good they are or not. But theres a couple different kinds on amazon. Maybe they would be at a local hardware store or walmart too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
My point in mentioning the mother's ability to open the door is that she does not seem very responsible and she may open it for reasons other than fire and then just leave it open.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
176 Posts
My point in mentioning the mother's ability to open the door is that she does not seem very responsible and she may open it for reasons other than fire and then just leave it open.
Which would make me worry even more about them, because they have no business being in there in the first place. :eek:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
I feel sorry for the child. I'm not saying the way I do things is the way everyone should do things, but when my sons were that young they did not get to wander around the house unmonitored. They were good kids but at that age, a child can do lots of stuff (like picking on a dog) or getting into things they shouldn't without being aware of the dangers at all.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,398 Posts
I don't think dogs really understand ownership. If the dog is allowed to have it, it's his in that moment until you take it away. The purpose of the trading exercise is to make it a smooth and enjoyable process for the dog for the chance they might get something better in return. Even when you teach a dog to "drop it" theres should still be a trade going on in the early training exercises. :)
We just take a different approach and have differing opinions regarding this subject.

First, I strongly believe dogs from the moment they are born exhibit "ownership" and display this as they will attempt to guard and claim the mother's best milk producing nipple even if they are not feeding. Resource guarding is normal dog behavior and is basically innate. It is a built in process to ensure individual survival and eliminate competition and in the wild might seem cruel to the weaker canines in a litter. This natural behavior is typical in many animals.

However, all pups from day one cannot claim the same items whatever they might be, due to competition among their peers as there are "winners and losers". Dominant pups versus less dominant pups in the same litter, the pecking order is developed from the beginning and it follows through into the future even once the litter mates have gone their separate routes.

Watching dog/dog interaction and the particular behaviors associated with this part of their make up is very telling and interesting. Since I have had formidable dogs over the years, I cannot allow for the potential for the dog to guard, claim or "own" any of its resources as it could result in the dog biting/defending what it thinks is his/hers. Something as seemingly innocent as a person stepping over or encroaching upon a dog's space can solicit a response from the dog which could harm a human, if the dog is allowed to "own" its resources.

I am unsure which pup from a litter is more difficult to modify this behavior. The pup which gets its way easily because it is the strongest and most dominant or the pup which will compete the hardest to get the same resource but loses at times because it is not the strongest. Either way, pups ( excepting the most dominant ) learn that they must cede at times to the stronger more dominant sibling. The ability for a pup to win, lose or sometimes draw creates an understanding that it will not always get its way but will test the waters in an attempt to claim a resource.

Trading up will work but as I have mentioned, it is a limited approach which will ultimately fail when there is no item more desirable than what the dog currently has possession of. Take for example territorial "ownership" especially between two bitches, what would the trade up be for this? The dog is guarding its supposed rightful territory and a doggy biscuit won't likely work in stopping territorial aggression. What will work is the dog knowing it is my territory and therefore relies on me to be the keeper of the territory, not the other way around.

From day one, I have trained my dogs there will be absolutely no competition for resources. The process is not mean nor unfair, it simply is conveyed to the dog in a language which the dog is all too familiar with and most certainly has the capacity to adjust to.

Yes, lots of people use 2 ball as a method for a basic teaching procedure for a game of fetch and it works but I opt to train differently from the beginning so I don't ever have to rely on trading up or bribing the dog to relinquish an item or any other resource.

Since I effectively own everything in my dog's existence there can be no resource guarding or future competition for anything. Once the dog has learned this, there is a wonderful balance between human and dog. I do not abuse this position and capacity ever because it is part of the bond between human and dog which the dog has come to rely on and find comfort in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The mother goes into my mothers room all the time. She honestly acts like she owns the placa and She hardly even pays her rent. She is a recovering alcholic who has recently decided she is not an alcholic. She got mad at me yesterday because her child did the exact same thing and Jules growled and the child smacked her for it?. I got on to her and sent her to there room. The mother came out and said that we don't need to be getting on to her and only she can get on to her. She even told her child not to listen to us!!? I told my mom she needs to just evict them but she won't because of the child and she doesn't want them living on the street.

The child has the run of the house for most of the day. She rarely gets to go anywhere besides the house which leaves her with a ton of energy. Her mom spends most of the day sleeping and the child is supposed to stay in the room with her but I have never met a 4 year old who will sleep all day. I feel bad for the child but I am just so ready for them to be gone.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
Samson you can call Children's Protective Services. I think that the child might get hurt because the mother is not watching her, and it is not your duty to care for the child. A four year old can get into all sorts of trouble. You might check out your local statutes, in some places one actually has a duty to notify CPS if one observes child abuse or neglect, and can be held liable for not doing so.
http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/pages/childprotectiveservices.aspx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
We have called CPS on her and others have to. She lost custody of her for about 3 months. Sobered up and stayed sober for another 3 and has now decided she is not an alcholic. It took her dad calling CPS for anything to be done. We and others had called several times before that. Her dad is also now drinking again. We have discussed calling again but we are not sure if anything will be done. We are leaning more towards calling right now though just so it is documented.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,031 Posts
We have called CPS on her and others have to. She lost custody of her for about 3 months. Sobered up and stayed sober for another 3 and has now decided she is not an alcholic. It took her dad calling CPS for anything to be done. We and others had called several times before that. Her dad is also now drinking again. We have discussed calling again but we are not sure if anything will be done. We are leaning more towards calling right now though just so it is documented.
Posted via Mobile Device
I think that is a great idea. If something terrible happens, questions might be raised about why you didn't call; better safe than sorry. And maybe mention to CPS that you would like them out of your house, it may be that they could be relocated to a halfway house. Some of those places have waiting lists, but unless names are on the list, they will never get in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
So the mother and my mom kinda got into it tonight. The child was hitting Jules in the face and my mom told her to stop. So the childs mother said she was doing it because Jules was in her face. My mon pointed out that Jules was only in her face because amber walked over to her and got in her face then tried to leave but got mad when Jules followed. The childs mother made more excuses and said how where we going to get the dogs to leave her alone. My mom lost it told her they lived in this house before you. Then a lot of yelling happened.

The mother of the child has said she won't even touch one of our animals now. Literally my cat monster went to rub up on her and she slid her accross the floor with her shoe. The dogs go up to her and she is alone with them while we are at work this scares me. The dogs I can put up but my cats I can't and two love to sleep in her room. I am currently talking to my mom about servung her an eviction notice and she is leaning towards doing that. So hopfully she doesn't hurt any of my animals or i will loose it with her.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
661 Posts
This sounds like a very dysfunctional situation all round. I believe your dog is feeling the emotions of the situation and is reacting to it.

I think the best thing is for this woman and her child to leave.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top