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I'm a proffessional dog trainer who lives in *removed* I have a degree in animal behaviour and welfare (plymouth uni) and currently own four dogs.

I've been a dog trainer for the past 4 years, prior to that I was at uni, however I have always had an interest in dog training/behaviour.

I started using e collars shortly after I became a dog trainer as I found they offered a softer but more effective way of enforcing commands then the other aversives I had used.

I have found them much more effective than any other training aid and they really level the field in terms of time/skill/breed type ect. Basically they allow you to train any dog to a pretty good standard within a short period of time! This includes diofficult breeds and those with behaviour problems.

There are two ways of using an e collar

Escape training

This involves teaching the behaviour with the collar, you give the command and stim at the same time, then guide the dog into the behaviour. When the dog starts doing/or does the right behaviour you release the stim praise and reward the dog and repeat.

With escape training you can create a strong response in a short period of time. This is because the direct nature of the negative reinforcement is highly motivational and because of the collar being on the dog and adjustable to its distraction level you can always motivated the dog immediatly!

An example of escape training

Recall, a simple enough behaviour but one that most people find hard to achieve with a degree of reliablity.
To train the recall simply put the dog on a long line or extending lead, have the collar on the dog set to the dog working level. Allow the dog to raom around, call the dog and stim at the same time. Guide the dog towards you with the lead and as he turns/moves to you stop stimming, immediatly praise the dog until it reaches you then reward the dog with a release command and food!
Repeat until the dog turns and runs back to you at the first call without any assitance from the lead.
You can then practise without the lead and in more distracting environments!

This will give you a 100% recall within a few training sessions!

Avoidance training

This means the dog learns to avoid the stim altogether by obeying the command.
The procedure is the same except when you call the dog the first time don't stim, if he ignores you call again and stim!

This approach can taker longer to establish a proper response as the dog may risk it more readily. However it does work well.

The dog also needs to know the command your giving it with avoidance training, with escape you can teach the behaviour from the start on a naive/untrained dog with the collar very easily!

Imo the most effective training starts as escape and then moves to avoidance.

Problem solving

Aggression

Aggression can be devided into two parts.

Predatory
Usually defined as chasing/attacking/killing other prey animals or vehicles, some dogs will direct it onto humans or other dogs though!

This behaviour is dealt with by recalling the dog everytime it attempts it! This breaks the habit as the dog learns that when it trys to chase/attack it has to do the total opposite (move back to the handler), this essentially reporograms the dog!
Other good reprograming is making the dog lay down around its prey (house cats for example) for long periods of time as this removes the chase/drive association. Its important that the down position is calm (over on the hip) as opposed to tense and ready to spring!
Heel is also a good incompatible behaviour for car chasers/lungers ect

You can also correct the dog whenever it fixates on the prey item and guide it into a better behaviour (looking away), this is good for working dogs who need to work loose at a distance from the handler around the prey item without chasing.

All of these techniques require the dog to be trained to respond to the collar/command first!

With some dogs simply correcting them during the chase (until they stop) is effective, however its better if they have prior experience of ''leave'' training with the collar first!

Always make sure the dog has alternative prey items available, such as tennis balls ect.

Social aggression

This is aggression to other dogs or people either through fear or dominance.

Once agian for this we use incompatible behaviours to stop the dog aggressing and make it act the way we want around the trigger persons/dogs!
Good behaviours for this include recall and heel as well as leave, however down is especially useful as it is a calm position and allows the dog to relax around the scary thing, with dominant dogs it makes them feel more submissive!

With fear/dominance you are looking to reprogram the dog into good behaviour around the triggers, this effectively counter conditions the dog on a far deeper level than treats/toys ect as it changes the dog from the inside out as opposed to the outside in!

Other issues

Sep anxiety

Basically we use incompatible behaviours again to reprogram the dog! In this case an ''place'' and down stay command are essential, you use these to make the dog go to and stay in a specific spot while you leave it (short periods at first) this reconditions the dog to be calm about being left.
A bark collar is also useful to stop the noisier dogs!
Obviously the dog will not remain in a down stay on its bed for the whole day your at work but by the process of classical conditioning it will come to associate being left with feeling calm (in its place) and will transfer that to when its loose in the crate or house.

Fear

I mean of spefice thing (noise/cars/floors), this is dealt with in two ways

Obedience

Essentially using the e collar and pre trained commands you make the dog confront its fears, you would recall the dog across a scary floor or through a doorway or make the dog do a stay instead of running away from the noise of the fireworks.
For the car simply train the dog to go on its bed on command then put that in the car and send it in!

Re conditioning

If the dog is scared of a shiny floor stim the dog when its off the floor, guide it onto the floor and then stop the stim! This makes the floor a comfortable space which re conditions the dog from inside out!
The same can be applied to cars for example.

You can also utilise npl in fear cases, in effect make the dog act how you want it to feel, so when it wants to run make it sit calmly, when it wants to hide make it move around with you and so on. Nlp is at the heart of most behaviour resolutions!

With fear issues you need to work the dog until it no longer displays any fear and you need to be the decision maker as this add confidence!

Other issues

These include chewing/jumping on furniture, digging holes stealing food and eating rubbish.

Initially you train a behaviour with the collar so the dog understands the fact it controls the collar, then you wait for the dog to do the ''wrong'' behaviour and use the collar until it stops! With reps the dog learns not to bother.
Make sure the dog has alternative outlets for chewing/digging ect.

How collars work!

E collar training is based around negative reinforcement.
to motivate and reward the dog.
Negative reinforcement basically means the removal of an unpleasent stimulus, in this case the very mild static of the collar!
Virtually all training uses negative reinforcement in some way, for example treat training creates mild stress by withholding the treat until the dog complies, this stress is unpleasent stimulus, when the dog complies it gets the treat and the stress stops!
Most species are trained/handled with direct negative reinforcement (removal of unpleasent stimulus) all the horse training is done with neg reinforcement (physical aversives in this case) the top show jumper/dreassage horse/cutting horse will have been trained with physical aversives as the unpleasent stimulus from first time it was haltered up to the top level stuff.
The training of variouse draft animals (horse/cattle/camels/ellies) is also done with direct negative reinforcement.
Some animals are trained with indirect negative rienforcement (treats) such as zoo animals, however the training is still negative reinforcement based as the animal seeks to elminate the unpleasent state of ''no treat''.

Nuts and bolts of using the collar

You want to think in terms of making the dog do the correct behaviour as opposed to stopping the unwanted behaviour, so apply pressure (stim) until the dog does the right behaviour, wether this is recalling or stopping chewing. This teaches the dog that changing his behaviour stops the stim and that he controls the stim, this makes the dog very much in control (in his head) and gets best results.
Always guide the beginner dog into the behaviour!

Collars have a number of levels (4 to 127) these levels relate to the jump between them not the strength, so a colalr with 127 is no stronger than a collar with 8, there is just smaller jumps. This allows you to adjust the level to each dog sensitivity!
ALways train with the first level the dog feels in that circumstance, this is indecated by a flick of the ears or a slightly look around. Up the levels as distractions get higher, lower them as distractions get lower, always watch the dog more than the remote for info about the level you need!

Getting a collar

As a general rule the more levels the better and the more range the better, contact suppliers with specif questions about your requirements.

I recomend at least 400 yrd range for slow low drive dogs and 800 yrd for most dogs and 1200 for high drive independant dogs, of course it really depends on how far you want the dog to range.

I hope this has been helpful to people

Adam
 

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I'm a proffessional dog trainer who lives in devon (uk), I have a degree in animal behaviour and welfare
and your promoting ecollars to novices....riiight.


I'm debating between removing this, OR letting the other members pick it apart...

the second option may include lolcats. Be forewarned. This "article" will not be recieved well here.



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

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Not really helpful, no. It sounds like an awful way to train basic things like crate training and recall. By your credentials, I'm assuming you know more about counter conditioning and shutdown than me? So why would you want to make a dog more insecure by zapping him for lunging at the thing he is insecure about?

I vote delete. Looks like something he got paid to post by a e-collar company.
 

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Plugging the email into google brings up lots of similar posts for about a year. Very spammy

No credentials, no titles. No one recieving it well. Quite humorous actually

Personally id be embarrassed if i had to use an ecollar to teach the simplistic things described in this "article"

Any more votes? Ill let the board decide
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Definitely just the sort of training philosophy I was exposed to by a "professional bird dog trainer" and by the videos that come with e-collars.
Horrible, horrible stuff really.

I am torn between leaving it up here so we can debunk the heck-outa-it, or removing it, lest anyone new to dog training is taken in by it.

Right now I am leaning slightly towards leaving it here for us to destroy. If we get a good discussion going, it might even be a thread worth linking folks to in the future for a good education.

But I defer to those wise old timers around here to decide to leave it here or not!
 

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Maybe if we leave it up, one of you mods with magic wands can insert an introductory comment stating that this is a spam-ish post that came in and we decided to use it as an educational tool. That way, anyone stumbling upon this thread would see right from the start that using e-collars is not a way of training we promote or believe in.

Just an idea anyway...
 

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Gosh, this whole article is so astoundingly aweful... I don't even know where to begin. I'll just pick one sentence.... then I'm going to run my dogs!

I started using e collars shortly after I became a dog trainer as I found they offered a softer but more effective way of enforcing commands then the other aversives I had used.
So before zapping your dogs with electricity, you were doing what that was worse? hitting them? locking them in small hot cages without water? Using choke chains, prong collars, on their necks? Using whips to punish them (that IS an old bird dog trainer method I have read about)

Did you try each of these methods on yourself, and decide the electric shock was the lesser of all evils?

How compassionate of you! :rolleyes:
 

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Adam can you explain to me briefly the four quadrants of OC and how they apply to ecollars?

Have you read the studies linking ecollars to higher cortisol levels?

Have you read the studies linking invisible fences with aggression?

What titles do your dogs have?

Thank you
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50 years training, 90 breeds trained and I really don't have a clue as to how many dogs trained and I have used a e-collar. If I were to hazard a guess it would have been under 10 dogs and after other means of training did not get the job done.

Sending a novice out to train with an e-collar could be compared to sending an amateur out to hunt butterflies with an elephant gun, while the occasional butterfly may be killed you're just not gonna find much left of your trophy. I'm just sayin'...

I would assume there have been more dogs ruined by amateur e-collar use than helped. Be careful please be very careful as the dog ruined could be your own. Not gonna say more, as I am off this thread.
 

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I am really torn on whether it's good idea to leave this post or remove it. I would hate for someone to read this and think "hey that sounds good, let me try it" but at the same time it would be good to show exactly why these methods are horrible, inhumane and ridiculous. Oh and the fact that they don't work long term unless you completely destroy your dog.
 

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Hi all

I have put the same article on a number of forums, I have seen the same articles about clicker training on numerous forums as well. I always use my own name as I see no issue with people knowing it is me.

I'm not in the pay of any e collar company.

Anyway onto the questions.

The reason I use it to train basics is because

A, its important to lay a foundation before using it to correct/train more advanced stuff.

B, basics are the most important thing to any dog/owner and not having them radically effects the dogs quality of life and in some cases life span!

The methods I used have evolved from trainers such as *link removed, *http://www.dobbsdogs.com these guys pioneered e collar for field trial and bird dogs.

Prior to e collars I used aversives such as spray collars, rattle bottles and lead corrections. On occasion I will still do so.

Re OC, E collar is based on negative reinforcement. The dog learns that doing a behaviour stops the stim. The stim is mildly uncomfortable and this motivates the dog to changes its behaviour. In horse training this is commonly refered to as pressure and release training.

Re studies, I have researched the topic extensively (initially as an anti) and have not only seen all the research I have looked deeply into it and researched the research so to speak! I have also looked into the sponsorship of this research and the affiliations of the researchers.
I'm willing to discuss e collars and e collar training but am totally un interested in having articles quoted at me ect.

I don't compete my dogs, it doesn't appeal to me so I don't bother. I get more satisfaction out of this

Re amatuer using a colalr. I'd hazard a guess and say we are using very differnet methods. I regularly train people to use collars successfully within a few hours. Its one of the simplest tools to use if you understand it.

Adam
 

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Re amatuer using a colalr. I'd hazard a guess and say we are using very differnet methods. I regularly train people to use collars successfully within a few hours. Its one of the simplest tools to use if you understand it.
HA! Most amatuers can't even housebreak a dog or teach a sit without help, and they are som'how supposed to master OC, how to watch the dog and use the handset and physically learn timing in a few hours?

I own and have used my ecollar. I understand it just fine, its NOT as easy to impart that knowlege onto a person, AND its nearly impossible to do online with a simple couple paragraphs...Timing takes practice, lots of it, which is not aquired in a couple hours, on or offline. Sorry.

I feel an ecollar should be for life and death type training only. Using it for basic behavior IMO is lazy and cruel.

Re studies, I have researched the topic extensively (initially as an anti) and have not only seen all the research I have looked deeply into it and researched the research so to speak! I have also looked into the sponsorship of this research and the affiliations of the researchers.
I'm willing to discuss e collars and e collar training but am totally un interested in having articles quoted at me ect.
Ah, I see. You'll discuss only what you want to discuss. Gotcha. I love how the studies are biased, but the ecollar promoters aren't.


that video btw, not sure what thats supposed to show us? Its just two dogs running around. If its demonstrating recall, Those things can be taught without an ecollar is great ease, like I said before, I'd be embarrassed if I needed an aversive tool to get those behaviors. Especially out of high drive dogs like JRT and border collie...egads.



I have put the same article on a number of forums, I have seen the same articles about clicker training on numerous forums as well. I always use my own name as I see no issue with people knowing it is me.
because its a round about way to spam forums and drum up business, thats why. I wasn't born yesterday. Any more links to sites selling things and your done here. Capishe?



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sounds like you too use the e collar differently from me. Timing isn't hard. In escape you just give the command and tap the button. In avoidance you wait for the dog to ignore the command (or do something else you need to change stop) and tap the button.

Adam
 

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Sounds like you too use the e collar differently from me. Timing isn't hard. In escape you just give the command and tap the button. In avoidance you wait for the dog to ignore the command (or do something else you need to change stop) and tap the button.

Adam
I'm aware of how it works. :) and once again its not as easy as "just tapping a button" your really misrepresenting the skill involved with these collar and understanding WHEN to stim, and when not to.


yes its different, because "excape training" is considered the more inhumane out of all the ecollar "tactics" and many of the better modern ecollar trainers no longer use it at all. ;)


so those ARE your dogs then? Was I supposed to be overwhelmingly impressed that they sit when you stop walking? *gasp* I have to charge my collar!

seriously tho, your not making a good case here, you post a video of BASIC mediocre behaviors and want us to switch? Show me som'thing impressive...blind retrieves, bitework, stays next to cars, rattlesnake avoidance, food refusal, som'thing that could possibly warrant the use of forcing your dog to be a robot for you. :) Please?


btw if you want to sound legit, you should actually reply not just copy and paste the same phrases from forum to forum

No offence but I use e collars nearly everyday, I have researched the topic extensively (initially as an anti) and have not only seen all the research I have looked deeply into it and researched the research so to speak! I have also looked into the sponsorship of this research and the affiliations of the researchers.
I'm willing to discuss e collars and e collar training but am totally un interested in having articles quoted at me ect.
word for word...wow

http://www.network54.com/Forum/235380/thread/1296236754/last-1297504760/adam+palmer



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Oh wow you have google lol.

So what if my vids are basic, thats the point most people have problems with basic behaviours. Note the dogs aren't wearing an e collar in the vids.

I consider escape the better method because its clearer, if you don't understand e collar training or are using too high a level then you may consider it inhumane, but that probably just means I'm a better e collar trainer than you lol.

Note pet dog trainer. What stuff would you like to see?

Adam
 

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Oh wow you have google lol.

So what if my vids are basic, thats the point most people have problems with basic behaviours. Note the dogs aren't wearing an e collar in the vids.
I have ninja internet skills. Trust me.

my dogs don't have them on in my vids either! wowwie! Impressive huh??

Not sure why an average owner needs a formal heel?

There is no "so what". You are trying to sell the world on your method, but your results are not impressive. That and the behavior community says they are cruel. The onus is on YOU to impress US. You are failing at it miserably.




I consider escape the better method because its clearer, if you don't understand e collar training or are using too high a level then you may consider it inhumane, but that probably just means I'm a better e collar trainer than you lol.
:rofl: hahah, you hear that everyone, this guys a better trainer than me??? :rofl:

ok ok, say it again, :rofl: I need a laugh...:rofl:

for the THIRD time, Adam, I understand the ecollar. Better than you do obviously. I'd love to see a photo of this "degree" you don't really have. Really.




Note pet dog trainer. What stuff would you like to see?

Adam
I gave you a LIST in my last post, you need to READ the posts you are replying to, I know thats hard when your replying to multiple forums at the same time.



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Adam,
We're not idiots here. Many of us understand and even have experience with e-collar work. In my case, I used one enough, (under the direction of a "pro") to be good at it. Yes, an amateur can learn timing and the basic principles quickly if she is reasonably adept, coordinated and can read the dog. (although I agree with Crios that most amateurs lack these capacities) I also quickly realized it is, for most purposes, total overkill, and has side effects you have not mentioned in your article. Perhaps you are unaware of the fallout issue? I left that trainer and went to PR work and have had much more success with my dogs.

Now I just watched 4 minutes of video of dogs going for a walk and playing with a stick. What about that required any training whatsoever, much less training with an e-collar? Those are all totally natural behaviors for a JRT and BC. What are we supposed to be observing... that the dogs came back to you with the stick? Perhaps your dogs indeed would run away if not threatened by the e-collar, but most dogs naturally return to the owner without force.

Not impressed.

If Crio would share some of her vids with you, you'll see what PR training can do. Its up to her if she wants to share. She has read more about dog training and knows more about dog training and done more extensive dog training, than I have time to learn in my remaining time on the planet (I am 48). In a discussion about training, she can run circles around you like a Border Collie with a group of sheep. You might as well cry "uncle" now. Or better yet, listen to her and open your mind up to the possibility that it is YOU are on the ridiculous path as a trainer.

I'm just curious... what is in it for you to come here on forum that is largely populated by PR training folks, and start a thread on e-collar work? Your methods are going to get picked apart here. Are you hoping to find students here to teach, or recruit converts to the land of aversive training? It just isn't going to happen. Its kind of like going to a biology teacher's convention and trying to win people over to Creationism.

Of course we'd love to educate you, if you want to hang out and learn a few things. You might start by going here.
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/suppression-modification-shutdown-fallout-4776/

Meanwhile, shall we continue the exercise of dissecting each of the sentences in your article? I'm not sure if it is pleasure to do so, or more of a nauseating task... as I think that you seem to actually believe the stuff you are peddling here. Sigh...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
True lol.

A pet owner doesn't need a formal heel, the rough heeling in my advantages video is hardly a formal heel!

What is your e collar method then? I'm always curious. No doubt you understand the method you use better than my method, but hardly the point thats why its my method lol.

Btw scary ninja don't punch me through the screen lol.

In your last post you gave me a list including blind retrieve and bitework, hardly pet stuff. I can do stays while cars whizz by, I show off lead with sheep in the vids. What other fun and funky stuff do you want?

Adam
 

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True lol.

A pet owner doesn't need a formal heel, the rough heeling in my advantages video is hardly a formal heel!
yeah, I noticed, but it was what you were "attempting" to do. I was being nice.;) fine, next time i'll say "what does an average owner need with a sloppy heel?"....is that better?

What is your e collar method then? I'm always curious. No doubt you understand the method you use better than my method, but hardly the point thats why its my method lol.
Why does it matter? I use an ecollar in .00001% of my training. What did you eat for breakfast 235 days ago? Its moot because 99.99998% of the time I don't need to use it.

You should be asking about HOW I get those SAME behaviors without the collar...reliably, and on waaay less bidable breeds my friend. The fact you need one on a border collie just makes my head spin.


Now, if you start answering MY questions, posed at you, I may be willing to answer YOUR questions...you see thats how a convo works, ya see...its not really fair for you to skip and ignore what I've asked you, and then start demanding answers on your own...righto?


Btw scary ninja don't punch me through the screen lol.

In your last post you gave me a list including blind retrieve and bitework, hardly pet stuff. I can do stays while cars whizz by, I show off lead with sheep in the vids. What other fun and funky stuff do you want?

Adam
I've flipped all your YT videos, nothing impressive, so im not sure what your offering? I say som'thing and your going to film and uploaded right now? right right now??? I doubt it. Because if it has to wait til later this thread will be lolcats by then and I wont be interested.



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