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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey everyone,

We are picking up this sweet boy tomorrow morning and I'm so excited. I will admit that this is my first existence with this particular breed though I've been doing lots of research and of course joined this great group but was wondering what y'all thoughts were. American pit bull terrier?
 

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It's very unlikely you have a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier as the only way to guarantee it is with papers, and there is no trustworthy breed registry that allows APBTs just yet. You probably have a bullymix of some sort at least! If they're charging you for a 'purebred', however, you're being ripped off. Especially if they're charging you for a 'purebred bluenose'.

A VERY cute puppy either way though!!
 

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I see a pitmix pup, not a lab. I don't think labs come in gray.
Supposedly, they do, but the kennel that first "experienced" silver labs also bred Weimaraners, so do the math.

I see a pit mix, too, probably pit x lab, it's the most common mix. If you're being charged anything other than an adoption fee through a rescue or shelter, you're getting ripped off, OP. And beware, blue is a dilute of black, so there's inbreeding involved to get that color, which means a higher than average chance of genetic problems. Every blue I've ever met has allergies, for example.

They've also been very nice dogs, so I wouldn't dissuade anyone from adopting a blue pitty, but keep on top of it.
 

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A lab x weimaraner would be an interesting dog..

It's true, blues do seem more predisposed towards skin problems. That goes for every blue of every breed I've ever met! ...Which admittedly isn't much, but I've got a friend with a blue doberman and tht poor thing has more skin problems than you can imagine.

Pits and pitmixes do make fantastic pets! Just beware if being told 'purebred' and being charged more than adoption fees (ie over $200, especiall if no shots/worming)
 

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My monitor colors must be off a bit - I didn't see grey in looking at the photo...not even a dark grey.

The first thing I thought when I saw the photo was that the puppy had chocolate colored lab in him....based off the color and the shape of the head. I didn't think the head was broad and flat enough to be a full 'bull' breed.

Stormy
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
We did pay a small rehoming/adoption fee and are settling in nicely with our new lil guy. Took him to the vet today also and got dewormed again and first set of shots. Weighed in at 4Lbs 1oz. He's chocolate in color with white on his belly. Here's some more pics but either way we love him already.
 

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huh, I didn't even see a little bit of brown. Black maybe, gray in the second picture up top. Second set of pictures don't look brown either.. Oh well!

Still a cute puppy, are we going to get more pics as he grows? :D
 

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It's very unlikely you have a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier as the only way to guarantee it is with papers, and there is no trustworthy breed registry that allows APBTs just yet. You probably have a bullymix of some sort at least! If they're charging you for a 'purebred', however, you're being ripped off. Especially if they're charging you for a 'purebred bluenose'.

A VERY cute puppy either way though!!
I disagree on registries.

I believe the the UKC is an extremely reputable registry, sitting eye-to-eye with the KC, AKC, and CKC, it just revolves around working dogs not show bench dogs. The UKC registers many breeds, including the ABPT

I also have high regard for the ADBA, a very old APBT only breed registry.

If you disagree I would like to hear your specific criticisms of these two institutions.

I do agree with you that a dog claiming to be an APBT without belonging to a reputable registry (and there are many many many disreputable registries out there) OR from a known and well respected breeder who has been keeping immaculate records for generations, that it's likely the dog is a pit mix vs a full fledged APBT.
 

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I'll hand a pass to the UKC as I haven't done a whole lot of research onto their ethics and what they do or don't allow in their books. I'm not keen on how they'll allow a full UKC breeding registration on an AKC limited registration dog that isn't supposed to be bred, but.

Until recently, the ADBA allowed blatant mongrels into their 'pureblooded registry' as seen through allowing Razor's Edge and Gotti line dogs into their registry, when the breeders admit openly that their 'pure bred APBTs' are crossed with other breeds, including amstaffs and mollosers, to get the desired look. These dogs were not expunged from the same registry, and even allows that 175 pound obvious molloser-cross mutt 'Hulk' in its purebred lines as an american pitbull terrier.

Only as of March of THIS YEAR have they bothered to attempt to define the APBT, Amstaff, Working Pit Bulldog, and American Bulldog as different with breed standards and limitations, and finally will not be in theory allowing crossbreeds between any of them. While the ADBA may be moving in the direction of a reputable legitimate registry, right now it isn't due to its polluted lines and mis-registration. Anyone who hands you papers from ADBA can be selling you a mongrel at pureblood prices.

Edit: Puppypix!! I love his little white feet.
 

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I'll hand a pass to the UKC as I haven't done a whole lot of research onto their ethics and what they do or don't allow in their books. I'm not keen on how they'll allow a full UKC breeding registration on an AKC limited registration dog that isn't supposed to be bred, but.

Until recently, the ADBA allowed blatant mongrels into their 'pureblooded registry' as seen through allowing Razor's Edge and Gotti line dogs into their registry, when the breeders admit openly that their 'pure bred APBTs' are crossed with other breeds, including amstaffs and mollosers, to get the desired look. These dogs were not expunged from the same registry, and even allows that 175 pound obvious molloser-cross mutt 'Hulk' in its purebred lines as an american pitbull terrier.

Only as of March of THIS YEAR have they bothered to attempt to define the APBT, Amstaff, Working Pit Bulldog, and American Bulldog as different with breed standards and limitations, and finally will not be in theory allowing crossbreeds between any of them. While the ADBA may be moving in the direction of a reputable legitimate registry, right now it isn't due to its polluted lines and mis-registration. Anyone who hands you papers from ADBA can be selling you a mongrel at pureblood prices.

Edit: Puppypix!! I love his little white feet.

A registry is third party that keeps a record of the genealogy of the animal in question.

What I consider disreputable registries is those who register dogs as breed X simply based on the owners say-so, or the opinion of a vet or sometimes some photographs.

AKC limited registration.

In my experience many breeders will offer limited registration and full registration for the same animal at a higher cost. It's not like the animal is given limited registration after a neutral third party decides the animal does not meet certain goals.

Second, UKC is about working dogs. An AKC animal may have an undesirable tail length or coat color for the show ring determined at birth and given limited registration, then turn out to be a fantastic hunter. Regardless, the exact ancestry of the animal is known going back many generations.

Regarding ADBA

You say mongrel like it is a bad word. It isn't. The APBT like the Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Terrier comes from a 'type' of fighting bull-and-terrier dogs, so by definition these all trace to 'mongrel' roots. This is true of most breeds.

When a group of humans got together and declared there was to be a breed called the APBT, then there was the breed APBT, and it was formed form the TYPE of dogs they were looking for. There were dogs that were registered as Staffordshire Terrier that were let in then. There were 'mongrels' that were let in then too. Today, because of breed bans a lot of APBTs were re-registered as American Staffordshire Terriers, so bringing them back in to the APBT registry to me only makes sense. As far as Razor's Edge and Gotti, yes these lines started with unpapered pit-and-bull types, plus some papered Staffordshires, and had some bandog thrown in for size, and may well have included some animals that were known to be just 1/2 or 3/4ths pit. What they continued to have was a TYPE, and just like in the founding of the APBT breed, it makes sense to include that TYPE.

What may seem odd is that people aren't used to OPEN registries. Closed registries mean they only take animals that are offspring of animals already on the registry (or recognized registries). OPEN registry means you have the ability to take in animals that aren't registered if they meet the TYPE.

Indeed these 'alien' animals may be closer to the desired goal animal that the majority of 'registered purebred' animals.

It used to be fairly common for breeds to get an infusion of outside blood, especially when the breed hailed from somewhere other than the UK or USA. For example, the Siberian Husky breed has had 'siberian type' dogs from the Siberian area imported and included in the breed.

And finally, re-opening registries and bringing in either unregistered dogs of the same 'type' or bringing in dogs registered as a different but similar breed is one of the few way the breeds we have recognized today will ever have a chance of overcoming their genetic bottleneck. This should not be a problem as long is it is documented and everyone knows what is going on.

In fact, totally closed registries are NOT the norm and is common practice in most other purebred animal species. Generally they have the stance of 'its purebred' as long as it is of type and has documentation to show it is 7/8ths pure.
 

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ALL dogs trace back to mutts at some point, but if someone is selling you a papered dog as a 'purebred' it better damn well actually be a purebred, not one with obvious and blatant mixed lines.

Mongrel is a bad word when someone's selling you a 'purebred' dog and it's not. The dog may be a wonderful dog but it is NOT what was being advertised. There's someone on the forum having that problem right now, with being sold a 'purebred Pyrenees' and it very obviously isn't. The puppy might be great but it's not purebred and isn't what it was advertised and sold as.

ADBA allowed, and did not prevent, people from registering their mutts AS PUREBRED examples of whatever breed they're claiming, and then selling the offspring AS PUREBREDS, not for example 'pit bull types'. Straight up mongrels and crossbreeds. I have no issue with mutts, but if someone's going to claim their mutt is a purebred dog, and pull out their ADBA registration to 'prove' it and then whack you for a purebred price because ADBA allowed crossbreeds to register as purebreds ... well.
 

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He's what I'd call a BBM, or Bully Breed Mix.

There are a lot of bull breeds that look similar to the pittie....Staff, Am Staff, American Bully....Sometimes boxer, American bulldog, and english bulldog mixes end up looking like that too. There's no way of telling. The pit bull is one breed...It's not an umbrella term for at type of dog. Sorta like how we would call an unknown dog that looks the part a spaniel mix, and not a cocker. Don't know if it's a cocker, a cavalier, a springer...There are lots of spaniels!

He's just a purebred mutt :)
 

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again that's an open registry vs a closed registry mindset.

Are the dogs of a known documented lineage? Yes. Are they of the same type as the rest of the dogs registered as that breed? Yes. Have the above two factors been judged by a neutral third party with a fair degree of expertise in the matter (as opposed to someone sending in photos of their dog)? Are the dogs breeding true to type? yes.

Then it's a legitimate registry, it just happens to be an open one.

Again, look back at how the Australian Shepherd breed was formed, or the English Shepherd or the American English Coonhound, or the Rat Terrier.

Heck, there are MANY breeds where for a time two dogs of the same breed could be bred together and the pups they had were assigned to different breeds, in some cases different from each-other as well. (Example, you could get Australian Terriers, Silky Terriers, and Yorkies all in the same litter. You could get Pinschers and Schnauzers in the same litter. You could get Large Munsterlanders and German Long Haired Pointers in the same litter)

Look at the Biewer Terrier. The piebald coat popped up in Yorkies, as it was known to happen from time to time as there were small amounts of that recessive gene hanging around. One time that it happened, the owners declared the dogs to be a new breed. 10 seconds before declaring it was a new breed, those puppies were purebred yorkies just of an undesirable color. 10 seconds after declaring them a separate breed, they were purebred Biewer terriers.

And no, that doesn't make them any less of a breed than any other, just newer, and from a dangerously narrow genetic starting point.

I would see it as entirely reasonable 100 years from now for the Biewer registry to continue to accept new registrants whenever a pair of purebred yorkies get together and due to recessive genetics pop out a piebald pup. Heck, it would seem entirely reasonable to purposely occasionally cross in Yorkies with standard Yorkie coloring if they contained other desirable traits that turned out lacking in the Biewer.
 

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Just curious as to what color the puppy actually is. In the first picture it looked the color of a chocolate Lab and in the other pictures, it looked like it was black.
 

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You can call it as you'd like to, Akodo. You can even insist you can get purebred yorkies out of an Australian terrier if you'd like. But I don't trust any registry that allows people to call their mutts purebreds and price them accordingly, which is exactly what your examples are. If you want to pay thousands of dollars for a mutt, well, that's your choice! Hopefully you'll get exactly what you're hoping for and paying for.

But I will never with a clear conscience be able to suggest those registries to ANYONE looking for a reputable breeder and reputable lines.
 
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