[Bryansgirl]

OK I made a post earlier about Bella being scared to go outside, I realized after reading comments I made it seem worse then what it was. She will potty outside most of the time. It's only been a few times she wouldn't go outside. The main problem is after she pees or poops she runs inside. or pulls towards the house. She won't stay outside longer then to just potty and get back in. She has ran outside without being on leash a few times but not often she would potty and run back inside. I Can't walk her because she will not leave the yard. once she potties she wants in and theres no getting her anywhere else. Her idea is outside is potty only after that she has no use to being outside. She just hates it. She also does not ask to go potty outside if she has to she just does it without warning. SO this is not a health issue we havent had a poop accident in about a month and no pee accidents in a few days.

 

[Trailgirl]

OK I made a post earlier about Bella being scared to go outside, I realized after reading comments I made it seem worse then what it was. She will potty outside most of the time. It's only been a few times she wouldn't go outside. The main problem is after she pees or poops she runs inside. or pulls towards the house. She won't stay outside longer then to just potty and get back in. She has ran outside without being on leash a few times but not often she would potty and run back inside. I Can't walk her because she will not leave the yard. once she potties she wants in and theres no getting her anywhere else. Her idea is outside is potty only after that she has no use to being outside. She just hates it. She also does not ask to go potty outside if she has to she just does it without warning. SO this is not a health issue we havent had a poop accident in about a month and no pee accidents in a few days.

Sounds good, the problem is not as bad as it seemed. That said, you need to stop thinking of outside in the same way as you have. Try going camping for a day, get up while it is still dark, and go to a large park or forest, carry the dog to the car if you need too, then have the dog outside ALL DAY WITH NO HOMES OR INSIDE ANYTHING ANYWHERE IN SIGHT. The dog can then learn how wonderful the sights and sounds of the forest are. Also bring a 50 foot check cord so that you can let the dog run long, that is if the dog can not be allowed to run free. If the dog is scared, it might just stay right by your side with no leash, you will not know until you try. The people who are advising you to be afraid of giving your dog freedom, are just reinforcing the behavior that exist. So get out of the house, and take your dog back to where the Wolves and Coyotes are still born, it's the dogs real home, every dogs, though not all people know this. You can not cure this situation at your home, has your dog ever seen and run thru a 2 mile square field? or a hundred miles of trees? The answer is not at your home and you have never once mentioned leaving, you need to do this starting today, or your puppy will not learn what the World contains

 

[icemaiden]

I would start using treats when she just gets close to the door when she doesn't need to go outside. I would then treat her for putting her head out of the door, then putting her foot outside, then her body, then staying there a little longer and so on. Building it up slowly and steadily, gently encouraging her. I would not get stressed if there were times when she did not want to play that game.

I would also try laying a trail of really special treats leading just outside the door. If she ate them, the next trail would be longer with a larger amount at the end. I would do all this when she was hungry, hopefully this would teach her to associate the outside with nice things. Clicker training would be ideal.

How did you get on with her socialisation?

What would happen if you carried her outside? Or is she too big?

 

[Trailgirl]

I would start using treats when she just gets close to the door when she doesn't need to go outside. I would then treat her for putting her head out of the door, then putting her foot outside, then her body, then staying there a little longer and so on. Building it up slowly and steadily, gently encouraging her. I would not get stressed if there were times when she did not want to play that game.

I would also try laying a trail of really special treats leading just outside the door. If she ate them, the next trail would be longer with a larger amount at the end. I would do all this when she was hungry, hopefully this would teach her to associate the outside with nice things. Clicker training would be ideal.

How did you get on with her socialisation?

What would happen if you carried her outside? Or is she too big?

What would happen if she was carried to a car, and driven away from the house? It seems strange to me that this has not yet been discussed. Also bribing a dog with treats just ends up in a dog that will not do anything except for food. Bribing the dog to leave the house is just reinforcing that when the food is gone the dog should return, it can not work. Though putting the dogs regular food in the yard and never feeding in the house might be an option

What type of dog? what does it weigh, where did the dog come from and what is it's history? Mix or purebred, Dogs are not dogs, any more than people are people. Knowing more about the dog might help, as a 5 month old dog can weigh from 5 to 100 lbs, size does matter.

 

[icemaiden]

Also bribing a dog with treats just ends up in a dog that will not do anything except for food. Bribing the dog to leave the house is just reinforcing that when the food is gone the dog should return, it can not work.

What a lot of nonsense! Positive reinforcement training is based on the use of treats, but I guess you are not familiar with the concept.

 

[Trailgirl]

What a lot of nonsense! Positive reinforcement training is based on the use of treats, but I guess you are not familiar with the concept.

Positive reinforcement for my dog is my being happy, I have never bribed my dog with treats. All I need to say is good girl and she continues with a wagging tail, if I say stop she freezes on command, if I say heel she is at my side until released, no food was ever used to train this, my dog works for love, are you familiar with that? One step out of the house is not the freedom of a field or park, this dog needs to get out, the owner has never said that she ever took the dog anywhere, which might be why it is afraid to go anywhere.

 

[myrottenones]

Also bribing a dog with treats just ends up in a dog that will not do anything except for food. Bribing the dog to leave the house is just reinforcing that when the food is gone the dog should return, it can not work.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree! You are showing your dog that good things happen! Why else would a dog want to give something a try that he is uncomfortable with, if not for treats/toys/praise?

Different dogs respond to different things. Where most people would give high value treats, some dogs might look at a game of tug to be more rewarding but the concept is the same.

Forcing a dog to do something scary is not recommended as that can backfire badly!

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/suppression-modification-shutdown-fallout-4776/

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/4-quadrants-operant-conditioning-23702/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhpr3NO3TY

I really recommend you to look at these.

Dogs are not dogs, any more than people are people.

And I don't know what you mean by this so I'll leave that one alone.

 

[Trailgirl]

Respectfully, I strongly disagree! You are showing your dog that good things happen! Why else would a dog want to give something a try that he is uncomfortable with, if not for treats/toys/praise?

Different dogs respond to different things. Where most people would give high value treats, some dogs might look at a game of tug to be more rewarding but the concept is the same.

Forcing a dog to do something scary is not recommended as that can backfire badly!

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/suppression-modification-shutdown-fallout-4776/

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/4-quadrants-operant-conditioning-23702/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOhpr3NO3TY

I really recommend you to look at these.



And I don't know what you mean by this so I'll leave that one alone.

So you are saying that this woman taking her dog out of the house, and driving to a park with the dog is wrong.

The lack of this might be why the dog is afraid to leave the house, the owner has never responded as to if she ever tried this, or if she ever intends too.

As for your links, my dog is already the best trained dog anyone has ever seen, and people tell me this near every time we are out, so your links are really not needed for me, though others might benefit from them. Again my dog is free everywhere, and leashed under 5 percent of the time, one time we went camping for three days in the Catskills and she was never leashed once, day and night, she had a light so we could see her in the dark, we camped near bear droppings. Not all dogs can do this I know, but telling me that I need to do things your way makes no sense as my dog gets compliments from strangers often.

 

[PoppyKenna]

If you had a video of her behavior - trying to get inside after going to the bathroom - that might be helpful to gauge if it really is fear.


That said, I think there was some great advice from @Rain and @Shandula on your other thread. I would work with her on being outside even when you don't absolutely need her to go out there (so in between potty breaks). Start treating just for being next to the door, then with the door open, then for sniffing the air outside or listening to noises outdoors, then for sticking a head out, then a foot -- basically any willing interaction with the outdoors gets her a really, really good treat.

After that you can start putting treats on the porch outside, then maybe a trail down to the steps, etc. Obviously she'll still need to go out for potty breaks, so until she'll happily walk outside either carry her out and then in when she's finished, or try having her walk with you and treat her for every step she takes.

Once she's able to better be in the yard, that's the point where you can start making the yard a really fun, habitable place. I think @Redwood had a good idea on your other thread - you can move her stuff out there and hang out with her, again constantly rewarding and playing games. But I wouldn't move to this until she'll eagerly go outside, and at any sign of fear or uncertainty I'd get her back inside ASAP.

And...once you're able to get her to be happy in your yard, you can employ the same techniques (delicious treats for baby, baby steps) to get her onto the sidewalk, down the block, etc.

I know you've said you were short on funds, but I'd start seeing if you can save even $5 per week toward a trainer/behaviorist. Even an online one via skype would be helpful. Bella's had some fear issues I know, as does my dog, but a dog that won't go out into their own yard due to fear is probably one that needs professional help.

For now though, baby steps, keep it all suuuuuper positive (work on your happy voice!!), and don't push her more than she's ready. Even if she seems okay, play it safe and take things a step back to be absolutely sure.

 

[PoppyKenna]

So you are saying that this woman taking her dog out of the house, and driving to a park with the dog is wrong.

The lack of this might be why the dog is afraid to leave the house, the owner has never responded as to if she ever tried this, or if she ever intends too.

If it helps you to visualize, think of something you're afraid of. For me, it's spiders.

If someone were to tell you that you could absolutely get over your fear of spiders, all you have to do is sit right next to a bunch of them without the ability to get away - do you really think that would be beneficial?

Or would it be easier to tolerate spiders if someone were to give you a cookie every time you saw one, and never, ever made you interact with them or get any closer than you felt you could bear?

Treats aren't a bribe, they are used to make a positive association. This is classical conditioning - just like Pavlov's experiment. Dog hears bell, dog salivates because he thinks food. Bella (the OP's dog) sees outside, she starts to get excited because....treats!

 

[Trailgirl]

If it helps you to visualize, think of something you're afraid of. For me, it's spiders.

If someone were to tell you that you could absolutely get over your fear of spiders, all you have to do is sit right next to a bunch of them without the ability to get away - do you really think that would be beneficial?

Or would it be easier to tolerate spiders if someone were to give you a cookie every time you saw one, and never, ever made you interact with them or get any closer than you felt you could bear?

Treats aren't a bribe, they are used to make a positive association. This is classical conditioning - just like Pavlov's experiment. Dog hears bell, dog salivates because he thinks food. Bella (the OP's dog) sees outside, she starts to get excited because....treats!

But this is not about spiders, and it is not about a dog either. This is about a dog owner who has never once said that she ever took her dog to a park, or anywhere. How can the dog learn the joys of freedom from home?

 

[myrottenones]

So you are saying that this woman taking her dog out of the house, and driving to a park with the dog is wrong.

The lack of this might be why the dog is afraid to leave the house, the owner has never responded as to if she ever tried this, or if she ever intends too.

I am not there so I won't pretend to be able to make a judgement call on what has been or is being done "wrong" or "right".

This person is here asking for advice - that says it all.

I have a rescue that was extremely fearful and I know that she would have shut down easily if I didn't take extremely slow babysteps with gallons of treats - for most things.
But encouraging a person to "dive into the deep end" sort of speaking, with a fearful dog, is not the most responsible.
I'm sure it has worked on some dogs but there is a greater risk that it will backfire. That's why taking it slow and showering her with treats/praise is a better starting point.

As for your links, my dog is already the best trained dog anyone has ever seen, and people tell me this near every time we are out, so your links are really not needed for me, though others might benefit from them. Again my dog is free everywhere, and leashed under 5 percent of the time, one time we went camping for three days in the Catskills and she was never leashed once, day and night, she had a light so we could see her in the dark, we camped near bear droppings. Not all dogs can do this I know, but telling me that I need to do things your way makes no sense as my dog gets compliments from strangers often.

That's good on you. I put the links in that post for the OP and anyone that was interested. Not once did I criticize you or your training.

 

[myrottenones]

But this is not about spiders, and it is not about a dog either. This is about a dog owner who has never once said that she ever took her dog to a park, or anywhere. How can the dog learn the joys of freedom from home?

From the sounds of it, the dog doesn't enjoy outdoors at all, it sounds like she is afraid. How can it be beneficial for the dog to be taken away from her one safe place and put in a spot where there is only strange smells, noises, dogs, people, etc and no safe place for her to go to?

The dog might not learn the joys of freedom, she might learn the terrors. Strange places/people/dogs is like heaven for a lot of dogs. Not all of them share that view.

At first you make good association with the outdoors by your house, then, while working under the dogs threshold, you gradually increase it to the yard, the street by your house, etc.

I am terrified of wasps, if someone forced me to sit and be surrounded by them, with nowhere to go, I would probably take a walk with Alice in Wonderland and you can be guaranteed that if I ever saw one wasp again - I would give you the freak out of the century!

 

[Shandula]

@Bryansgirl you've received some good advice in this thread, and I would love to watch some videos of you and Bella, and then maybe we can offer some more advice based on her body language.

I know you're using positive reinforcement with treats, and I think that is important. Some dogs will work for praise, but for some that is not enough. It can also depend on the behaviour you're asking. There are a lot of behaviours Levi will do for a snuggle and a "Good Boy", but there are some I reward with treats because it is a tough behaviour. For Bella, going outside is what I would refer to as an expensive behaviour. You'll need to get some next level treats, and those are only used when she's outside/near the door.

Sometimes people mistake positive reinforcement for bribery, but that is only when it is done incorrectly. When it is a bribe, the food is on display to fully lure your dog to do what you want, and the lure is never faded. Good positive reinforcement mean complete the behaviour = get a treat. I liken it to me working. Do I like when my boss says I've done a good job? Absolutely. Would I go to work every day and instead of a paycheque be satisfied with "Nice job". Not a chance.

 

[kmes]

Rules Reminder:

1) Be nice. If you can't be nice, be civil. If you can't be civil, please don't post.Even if you disagree with another member, you can express your opinion in a way that won't cause hard feelings. Please do so. If somebody doesn't follow this rule and is mean or insulting, please notify a moderator and the moderator will address the issue.

3) Keep threads on topic.
Please keep the original poster's purpose for starting a thread in mind when posting in it. While it is natural for the topic of conversation to stray somewhat as threads evolve, please do not make posts that effectively steer a thread in a new and unrelated direction. Instead, please feel free to start a new thread where you can discuss the different topic.

To view all forum rules see:
http://www.dogforum.com/dogforum-community-rules/dogforum-com-rules-1606/

Continuing to violate these or any of our other rules will result in infractions and removed posts. Please stay on topic and no more argumentative posts.
http://www.dogforum.com/dogforum-community-rules/dog-forum-infraction-policy-22539/

 

[Bryansgirl]

What would happen if she was carried to a car, and driven away from the house? It seems strange to me that this has not yet been discussed. Also bribing a dog with treats just ends up in a dog that will not do anything except for food. Bribing the dog to leave the house is just reinforcing that when the food is gone the dog should return, it can not work. Though putting the dogs regular food in the yard and never feeding in the house might be an option

What type of dog? what does it weigh, where did the dog come from and what is it's history? Mix or purebred, Dogs are not dogs, any more than people are people. Knowing more about the dog might help, as a 5 month old dog can weigh from 5 to 100 lbs, size does matter.

She is a mixed breed about 15 pounds, When we do leave the house she just mainly pulls towards the car then. I have had a couple of times where she would stay out there for about 20 minutes but if she heard any type of sound she would panic. One day we were outside and she was fine until a neighbor drove up in their driveway and she panicked wanting inside right then. I went a few houses over where she could not see our house and she snatched away from my boyfriend who didn't hold the leash good and she ran straight to our front door. Its weird sometimes she is Okay with being outside and then other times she just wants to stay inside, I have never been able to get her further then 2 houses over with her.

 

[Larkspur]

You know your dog better than we do. Don't do anything if you think it might scare her more or backfire on you. Forcing her to fave her fears flat out could simply cause her to shut down. It may take longer to work in steps like others have suggested, but it's far healthier for the dog's mental well-being than to be thrust unto a potentially terrifying situation with no out.
@Trailgirl - This isn't about you and your dog. Not all situations and dogs can be treated the same way. A situation has to be assessed on an individual basis and worked on accordingly. Quite honestly, I don't care if someone has the best trained dog in the world; if there are leash laws in effect somewhere, a dog should be on leash. Period. I don't care for people bragging to try to justify an opinion. It just looks bad. Bryansgirl knows their dog more than anybody here. They're the ones who should make the call. Say your two cents and move on. If they decide to use someone else's suggestion, they are free to.

 

[Trailgirl]

She is a mixed breed about 15 pounds, When we do leave the house she just mainly pulls towards the car then. I have had a couple of times where she would stay out there for about 20 minutes but if she heard any type of sound she would panic. One day we were outside and she was fine until a neighbor drove up in their driveway and she panicked wanting inside right then. I went a few houses over where she could not see our house and she snatched away from my boyfriend who didn't hold the leash good and she ran straight to our front door. Its weird sometimes she is Okay with being outside and then other times she just wants to stay inside, I have never been able to get her further then 2 houses over with her.

Once again you have not said that you have ever taken your dog away from your home. Has the dog ever been to a park? where there is no home to run back into? how is it in the car on the way? One thing that I always remember with my dogs, is that any place that I do not take them, is a place that they will never go, and that dogs learn from experiences just like people. Thus the more experiences you offer a dog, the more it learns and the more stable it becomes.

 

[Trailgirl]

You know your dog better than we do. Don't do anything if you think it might scare her more or backfire on you. Forcing her to fave her fears flat out could simply cause her to shut down. It may take longer to work in steps like others have suggested, but it's far healthier for the dog's mental well-being than to be thrust unto a potentially terrifying situation with no out.
@Trailgirl - This isn't about you and your dog. Not all situations and dogs can be treated the same way. A situation has to be assessed on an individual basis and worked on accordingly. Quite honestly, I don't care if someone has the best trained dog in the world; if there are leash laws in effect somewhere, a dog should be on leash. Period. I don't care for people bragging to try to justify an opinion. It just looks bad. Bryansgirl knows their dog more than anybody here. They're the ones who should make the call. Say your two cents and move on. If they decide to use someone else's suggestion, they are free to.

The woman has never said if she has ever taken her dog anywhere, ever, I find this odd, in fact almost impossible and if true wrong for the animal. Has the dog ever seen a veterinarian? because tranquilizers might help. One can not assume that a dog will not like an open park setting, if the dog has never been to one.

 

[PoppyKenna]

Hm.

If the dog is afraid of cars/people/dogs, finding a place where the dog can be away from all of those things may be ideal. However, that may not be an easy thing to find and it would have to be done very carefully -- leaving as soon as the dog appeared to have a negative reaction.

Yes, dogs learn from experiences, but those experiences have to be positive. If you just throw a dog into a situation that the dog fears, without any effort to make it a safe and positive one, it will become a bad experience and make the dog even more afraid.

I have a fearful/reactive dog, so I know the struggle. Some fears are caused by lack of socialization, others are genetic in nature (my dog's are genetic). I know his limits and don't push him past them, but I guess I'm lucky in that he trusts me enough to know that I will keep him safe and make things fun - so if he's a little questionable about something, he'll attempt it. Thankfully, he's also not afraid of our yard or the outdoors in general.

IMO, it's a good thing that this dog sees the home as a safe haven, but a dog that is so extremely afraid of the outside is living in a lot of fear - probably a state of high anxiety. That's not good, nor will it make training easy. Again, to the OP, I'd save as much as possible for a trainer and potentially medication (based on what the trainer says). For now, baby steps.