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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Weight ranges & lifespan
Toy-sized dogs mature fastest, & dogs under 10# are full-grown at 9-MO.

That said, no dog should be bred B4 they're 2-YO, for 2 reasons -
* 85% of heritable problems will be symptomatic / visible by 2-YO
* waiting to mate for the 1st time till they're 2-YO adds an average 2-yrs to their pups' lifespans

Dogs who weigh between 10 & 20# are full-grown by 12-MO. "20# & under" are the toy-breeds - this group is the longest-lived, & may live into their 20s. Schipperke are particularly noted for long lives, & can live to be 25 to 26-YO.

Dogs who weigh 60 to 120# are full-grown by 2-YO; this is the Med/Lg group. They're seniors by 7, & generally live 12 to 14-years.

Giants weigh 125# & up to 300; they're not full-grown until they're 3-YO, & sadly, they are seniors by 5, & often die by 7 to 10-YO.

With such a vast range of adult sizes, anything from 2# to 200 & up, in order to guesstimate adult wt, there are various formulas. Which size-range a pup will sort into as an adult, determines which formula is best suited. When in doubt, use the dam's adult size as a baseline for the pup: if she's 80#, assume the pup will weigh at least that, so use the Med/Lg formula.

Peak growth rate:
The period of fastest growth also varies by eventual size; toy-size pups who will weigh 20# or less as adults, grow fastest from 6-WO to 10-WO.
Small to medium dogs, who will weigh 20 to 50# as adults, grow fastest from 12-WO to 20-WO.
Med to Lg breed dogs who will weigh 60 to 120#, grow fastest between 3-MO & 6-MO.
Giants who mature at 125# & up, grow fastest between 6-MO & 10-MO.


for mixed-breed pups of the Med/ Large range, there are 2 useful formulas to guesstimate adult-wt:
* wt @ 14-WO + [1/2 that] = Adult Wt
* wt @ 16-WO x 2 = Adult wt, + / - 5#

At 6-MO, adoptees in the Med / Lg range weigh about 2/3 their adult weight.
Giant-range pups weigh approx half their adult weight at 6-MO [i-e, 60# or more].
___________________________________________

There's also a very-handy graph here for ANY size pup -
Find Out Your Puppy's Adult Weight | Puppy Chart
... plus, this page includes an amazing 507 of the global total of around 600 breeds & landraces.

Zoom the 12-WO graph to get fine detail for birth to 3-MO.
Zoom the 6-MO graph for details from 3-MO to puberty.
Zoom the 1-yr graph for details of 6-MO to 12-MO.
Zoom the 2-yr graph for giant types between 12-mo & 2-years.
_________________________________________________


For an in-depth look at development [eyes open, walk, etc], nutrition, fit vs fat, etc, see
https://thehappypuppysite.com/puppy-development-stages/


cheers,
- terry

 

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What about the dogs over 20 but under 60? This is a very interesting post to me.

I don't know about dam, they can be bigger or smaller than her. Especially how people mix odd breeds.

Also what is meant by "full grown" does this mean height?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
"full-grown" = calcified skeleton

"full grown" = long-bones of legs are closed [which occurs around 5-MO in most M dogs, when the 1st sharp rise in testosterone & other androgens shuts-off development of bone-cells at the epiphyses; F dogs use a different developmental mechanism] & pelvis is fully calcified.

M dogs of giant breeds, & even some in the Lg / Extra-Lg range, continue to develop more bone in their skulls past their 2nd birthday, but this doesn't appreciably affect body size, only the appearance of the dog's head, & makes for a more-marked difference between a mature dog & a bitch, re their faces & backskulls.

Of course, since puberty is full-on by 6-MO no matter what breed, mix, or size a M dog might be, long, long-B4 his "headpiece is fully developed" - as they'd say in the Fancy :rolleyes: - he's long-since capable of siring pups.
That doesn't mean he should - even if he's a toy-size under 20# dog, as big as he'll ever get, with his skeleton completely calcified, delaying a 1st breeding until both dogs, M & F, are at least 2-YO adds an average 2-years to their pups' lifespans.
It's the cheapest & easiest way to increase a dog's potential lifespan. :thumbsup:

Waiting till 2-YO also allows lurking heritable problems to surface - 85% of heritable problems that will affect an individual dog become symptomatic by 2-years age.
Because there are many things we have no tests for, delayed breeding to allow symptoms to show is a huge help in avoiding carrier : carrier or affected : ___ matings.

Toy & small-breed Ms can be very precocious -
one CKCS, whose call-name was unfortunately "Romeo" b/c he was a hump-o-matic by 3-MO - actually re-bred his mother on her very-next heat. He was just barely 4-MO; i certainly hope the breeder got a mismate jab on that potential litter!
CKCS as a breed have enuf health troubles that if U simply listed them by name, U'd fill a grocery-list longer than my 32-inch-sleeve arm. :eek: Dam / son inbreeding wouldn't improve them any. :(

Dogs, BTW, do not care about incest. Wolves & other wild mammals disperse from their natal range when they mature, to seek a mate; this is an instinctive way of avoiding too-close consanguinity. Dogs, like many domestic species, have lost this protective impulse - because WE want to decide who breeds with whom.
U would not believe how many dog-owners who own sibling dogs are shocked when they mate - "But we thought..." Well, U thought wrong. :eek: Sires & dotters, dams & sons, sibling with sibling... generally, a F in heat will mate with any M who's available & willing; ditto, Ms will mount any F who permits it, & many times Ms will mount Fs who do NOT permit it.

All this to say, if U have an intact dog, F or M, don't assume her or his well-developed moral sense will prevent any sexual shenanigans. :rolleyes:

Never leave a F in heat alone outside of a solid interior door, preferably with an airlock [2 doors, with a foyer or mud-room between them, or keep her in one room WITH THE DOOR LATCHED & that room well-away from the entry door].

Cyclone fences will not prevent mating. Only a solid privacy fence with NO cross-beams on the outside to allow climbing or leaping *in*, & no cross-beams on the inside to allow climbing or leaping *out*, can prevent mating. // Anything a dog can jump onto can provide a launching pad - a low shed roof, a dog-house, a picnic table, _______ .

If there's no wove-wire fencing buried under that 8-ft tall vertical stockade fence, the dog can always dig under it. ;)

Slip matings [no tie, brief intromission] have resulted in litters. If U even suspect that Ur bitch -might- be unintentionally preg, call the vet immediately & arrange for a mismate jab - whelping is not risk-free, & if she's under 12 to 18-MO, she's at higher risk. If the M who bred her is over 10# heavier than she is, again, the risk goes up. Every added risk factor makes it more likely she'll get into trouble during delivery; emergency C-sections around here start at $1,200 & go up - & up! - fast.
Every service or supply she needs, inflates the bill a little more - induction sedative, O2 monitor, BP / resp / pulse, gas, sutures, tying-off the umbilicals,
chivvying the pup/s awake, possible transfusion, anti-Bs, pain Rx, staples, bandaging, cone...


- terry

 

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How is all this related to my question?
I wanted to know what "fully grown" meant because I have medium breed, but they continue to grow and develop until 3-4 years old. So you did provide me that information of how that is defined.
But my other question was because
There was listing of weight in relation to being full grown and also average lifespan, but it provided 10-20# and then went to 60-120!
So I asked what about dogs from 20-60? My breed is typically 30-50# so I was interested in this weight range specifically.
I also think the prediction of adult weight is an interesting subject. Though it's a bit of a diffetent topic, it was mentioned.

"full grown" = long-bones of legs are closed which occurs around 5-MO in most M dogs, when the 1st sharp rise in testosterone & other androgens shuts-off development of bone-cells at the epiphyses; F dogs use a different developmental mechanism & pelvis is fully calcified.

M dogs of giant breeds, & even some in the Lg / Extra-Lg range, continue to develop more bone in their skulls past their 2nd birthday, but this doesn't appreciably affect body size, only the appearance of the dog's head, & makes for a more-marked difference between a mature dog & a bitch, re their faces & backskulls.

Thank you Dr definition here of full grown. My medium size dogs continue to fill out past this includes skull, but also ches, bodyt. A dog can look different from 2yr vs 3 or 4.


That doesn't mean he should - even if he's a toy-size under 20# dog, as big as he'll ever get, with his skeleton completely calcified, delaying a 1st breeding until both dogs, M & F, are at least 2-YO adds an average 2-years to their pups' lifespans.
It's the cheapest & easiest way to increase a dog's potential lifespan.


Waiting till 2-YO also allows lurking heritable problems to surface - 85% of heritable problems that will affect an individual dog become symptomatic by 2-years age.
Because there are many things we have no tests for, delayed breeding to allow symptoms to show is a huge help in avoiding carrier : carrier or affected : ___ matings.

You said that in your OP. I'm not advocating to breed under 2, merely curious about the subject. Though nothing springs to mind that there isn't a test for which would become apparent after two in my dogs. At least not off the top of my head, but I don't agree with breeding young dogs. The first female I ever bred was almost 3 year old.


Dogs, BTW, do not care about incest. Wolves & other wild mammals disperse from their natal range when they mature, to seek a mate; this is an instinctive way of avoiding too-close consanguinity. Dogs, like many domestic species, have lost this protective impulse - because WE want to decide who breeds with whom.
U would not believe how many dog-owners who own sibling dogs are shocked when they mate - "But we thought..." Well, U thought wrong.
Sires & dotters, dams & sons, sibling with sibling... generally, a F in heat will mate with any M who's available & willing; ditto, Ms will mount any F who permits it, & many times Ms will mount Fs who do NOT permit it.

I would very much believe it. I had a neighbor with a pair of white shepherds, bother and sister. My female had come in heat and I asked if he was going to be seperating his soon since the female would likely be in heat any day. He said well they're brother and sister so that he didn't have to worry about it. Uh yeah I informed him otherwise. It is too often people who don't know better end up with litters this way.


Never leave a F in heat alone outside of a solid interior door, preferably with an airlock 2 doors, with a foyer or mud-room between them, or keep her in one room WITH THE DOOR LATCHED & that room well-away from the entry door.

Cyclone fences will not prevent mating. Only a solid privacy fence with NO cross-beams on the outside to allow climbing or leaping *in*, & no cross-beams on the inside to allow climbing or leaping *out*, can prevent mating. // Anything a dog can jump onto can provide a launching pad - a low shed roof, a dog-house, a picnic table, _______ .

If there's no wove-wire fencing buried under that 8-ft tall vertical stockade fence, the dog can always dig under it.

How I've been keeping my intact dogs has worked for me. It is important to remember while some males are mellow, others have a great instinct to breed and will be itterly determined. I saw of a Canaan Dog that went through great lengths to get to a female.

Slip matings [no tie, brief intromission] have resulted in litters. If U even suspect that Ur bitch -might- be unintentionally preg, call the vet immediately & arrange for a mismate jab - whelping is not risk-free, & if she's under 12 to 18-MO, she's at higher risk. If the M who bred her is over 10# heavier than she is, again, the risk goes up. Every added risk factor makes it more likely she'll get into trouble during delivery; emergency C-sections around here start at $1,200 & go up - & up! - fast.
Every service or supply she needs, inflates the bill a little more - induction sedative, O2 monitor, BP / resp / pulse, gas, sutures, tying-off the umbilicals,
chivvying the pup/s awake, possible transfusion, anti-Bs, pain Rx, staples, bandaging, cone...


- terry

[/size]
Yes that's true. I've had a litter from slip mating.
My last litter ended up needing a c section. It was under $340 (the actual c section part was $245, but after hours fee and other things meds, ect). It up to owners to find out potential cost from their vet on c section and everything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
k9 lifespans

How is all this related to my question?
...
But my other question was because
There was listing of weight in relation to being full grown and also average lifespan, but it provided 10-20# and then went to 60-120!
So I asked what about dogs from 20-60? My breed is typically 30-50# so I was interested in this weight range specifically.
...
Maybe next time, Spicy, tell me precisely which question U are asking. :) It'll save time.
I'm sure U can find a longevity range for dogs between 20 & 60# as adults. U don't need me for that.

The reason lifespan in dogs is intriguing is that dogs, like domestic rats, have the "wrong" lifespans - domestic rats & mice both live to be approx 2 to 3-YO, & die.
The general rule in nature is that larger animals with slower metabolic rates, lower repro rates, etc, live longer; whales can live a century or more, elephants 60 to 70 years.
In dogs, the reverse is true: little dogs greatly outlive larger dogs, & giants have the shortest lifespans of all.

- terry

 

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How is all this related to my question?
...
But my other question was because
There was listing of weight in relation to being full grown and also average lifespan, but it provided 10-20# and then went to 60-120!
So I asked what about dogs from 20-60? My breed is typically 30-50# so I was interested in this weight range specifically.
...
Maybe next time, Spicy, tell me precisely which question U are asking.
It'll save time.
I'm sure U can find a longevity range for dogs between 20 & 60# as adults. U don't need me for that.

The reason lifespan in dogs is intriguing is that dogs, like domestic rats, have the "wrong" lifespans - domestic rats & mice both live to be approx 2 to 3-YO, & die.
The general rule in nature is that larger animals with slower metabolic rates, lower repro rates, etc, live longer; whales can live a century or more, elephants 60 to 70 years.
In dogs, the reverse is true: little dogs greatly outlive larger dogs, & giants have the shortest lifespans of all.

- terry
I did ask...here is my post
"What about the dogs over 20 but under 60? This is a very interesting post to me.

I don't know about dam, they can be bigger or smaller than her. Especially how people mix odd breeds.

Also what is meant by "full grown" does this mean height?"

Hmmm yeah I might be able to search up some info, I was inquiring of you because you made post about the topic but a weight range was missing. It happened to be range of most of my dogs.

Yeah rodents don't live long. I've had a few mice or rats that lasted past the average, but those are exceptions. Hamsters are the same, though I did have one that lived longer too He was am old wrinkly guy and had thinning hair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yup, that one - a little vague, wouldn't U say?

I did ask... here is my post

"What about the dogs over 20 but under 60? This is a very interesting post to me."
...
exactly. :) what about them? -
U did not say in that post, "what about the LIFESPAN of dogs between 20 & 60#?"
ergo, i had no idea what it was that U were asking about, re dogs of that wt-range.

U didn't clarify that U were curious about expected longevity until after i'd replied - & i'm sorry that i repeated prior info, but as U know, DF only allows editing for 10-mins, once a post goes up.
I didn't re-read my own previous posts B4 replying. :eek: Mea venial culpa.


as for the rest of the post, it had / has nothing to do with your dogs, whether they're intact or not, how U manage them, etc; I don't know U, don't know the dogs, their genders, repro status, ages, breeds / mixes, coat colors, nada. // One recent title that i think was Urs announced a rednose pup? - but i didn't read the thread, just saw the title in passing.

I don't keep scorecards; i reply to threads or posts, individually, except for the rare occasion when a current thread refers to or relates to a past thread, & i actually recall the past thread, LOL.

90% of that post was general info, for general readers. One paragraph was a reply to U, re 'full-grown'. :)

- terry

 

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@SpicyBulldog it's takes about two years for a dog that ways between 20-60lbs to grow to full size. I've seen some take longer but normally two years :)
 

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I did ask... here is my post

"What about the dogs over 20 but under 60? This is a very interesting post to me."
...
exactly.
what about them? -
U did not say in that post, "what about the LIFESPAN of dogs between 20 & 60#?"
ergo, i had no idea what it was that U were asking about, re dogs of that wt-range.

U didn't clarify that U were curious about expected longevity until after i'd replied - & i'm sorry that i repeated prior info, but as U know, DF only allows editing for 10-mins, once a post goes up.
I didn't re-read my own previous posts B4 replying.
Mea venial culpa.


as for the rest of the post, it had / has nothing to do with your dogs, whether they're intact or not, how U manage them, etc; I don't know U, don't know the dogs, their genders, repro status, ages, breeds / mixes, coat colors, nada. // One recent title that i think was Urs announced a rednose pup? - but i didn't read the thread, just saw the title in passing.

I don't keep scorecards; i reply to threads or posts, individually, except for the rare occasion when a current thread refers to or relates to a past thread, & i actually recall the past thread, LOL.

90% of that post was general info, for general readers. One paragraph was a reply to U, re 'full-grown'.


- terry
Okay I see, I asked because it was missing and assumed that you would know why, my mistake.

It is great to have the general info since it is a forum and some one might find it useful in future, but when you quote/reply then I think that it is aimed at me directly, most people do. But either way it was a good post.
Yes I got a new puppy and that was my post you saw.


@SpicyBulldog it's takes about two years for a dog that ways between 20-60lbs to grow to full size. I've seen some take longer but normally two years :)
What do you mean by full grown? With the OPs definition it takes males about 6 months and females are a little different but younger than 2. If it's a different idea of full grown?

The 2nd part of question is average lifespan of dogs in that size range? Which would require a lot of data to be accurate, but I'm sure it's been done if there is available info on dogs of other sizes.
 

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Full grown like they aren't gaining weight or getting bigger usually at two. Huskies German Shepherd are in that weight range as medium size dogs most female huskies don't get over 55lbs ever they stop growing at 2 for the most part males get a little bigger but they stop growing normally at two also. The lifespan is about 12-15years on rare occasion 17-18. Normally 12-15 though :) I hope that helped
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
To clarify...

...
What do you mean by "full grown"?
With the OPs definition, it takes males about 6 months and females are a little different but younger than 2.
If it's a different idea of full grown?
...
oops - nope.

The part that differs in Ms vs Fs re skeletal development is the closure of long bones in the legs - in Ms, the 1st sharp rise in androgen secretion, around 5-MO, closes the epiphyses. // Fs use a different developmental strategy to shut down the epiphyses, 'cuz they don't secrete enuf androgen to trip the trigger that way.

That's why pediatric [under 12-WO] & juvenile [12 to 20-WO] desex of M pups can make them a bit leggier - but it's not a huge difference, & a study of M siblings who were desexed as young pups vs their still-intact brothers, all now adults, found that variation in height at the withers between the 2 groups was no greater than the simple variation in height between 2 intact brothers.

The claim by some that such continuing growth would "give the dog's joints bad angles" & make hip-dysplasia or slipping kneecaps or other structural problems more likely, also hasn't shown up in data.
It's been hypothesized that the longer, slower period of growth is actually beneficial, as the bone becomes denser than usual - but all the leg joints are in proportion, as all parts of the long bones grow, albeit slower than during the growth-spurt pre-puberty.


Full-on PUBERTY is around 6-MO in both sexes; "full grown", as in fully-calcified skeleton, varies by dogs' size / wt as adults, from a low of 9-MO for under-20# dogs, to a high of 2.5-years in some truly-ginormous giants [English Mastiff & similar 200#-plus breeds]. The final large bone to calcify is the pelvis; the continuing growth of small details of the skull in M dogs of larger breeds is mostly cosmetic, & is a secondary sex trait, differentiating Ms from Fs more markedly.

For any dog larger than a toy-breed, & either sex, 2-YO is a good approximation for fully-calcified skeleton.

- terry

 

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Full grown like they aren't gaining weight or getting bigger usually at two. Huskies German Shepherd are in that weight range as medium size dogs most female huskies don't get over 55lbs ever they stop growing at 2 for the most part males get a little bigger but they stop growing normally at two also. The lifespan is about 12-15years on rare occasion 17-18. Normally 12-15 though :) I hope that helped
I don't know about Huskies, but I do know GSDs continue filling out past 2 years old.
I think 12-15 is probably about what I've experience with my medium sized breed. Sometimes wish they lived longer.

@leashed4life thanks for the explanation and clarification.
 
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