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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone!

Me and the dogs are struggling a little bit with their perch work (that is two front paws on a raised object, hind feet rotating). They are VERY happy to get on (as in I can barely put the object down before their paws are up!), and rotate (Heidi better than Levi) but they will not go past a 90 degree turn.

If I move with them, they will do a full circle, but I want them to be independent, I'm also shaping and not luring. Ideally I want them to be able to do full 360 degrees, but I'm struggling on how to get them to keep trying without getting a lot of frustration.

I'm currently clicking and treating for any head turns, weight shifts and any steps. But they get perpendicular to me and then go back the other way.

Thoughts?
 

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I started trying this with my guys too but we've only done it a few times so unfortunetly I wont be much help.
Have you watched kikopups video on it? It might help to give you a new idea if you haven't watched it already.
Maybe keep your self moving so they don't end up perpendicular to you until they've made the full rotation?
Good luck
 

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Fun! Well, except for the frustration bit, sorry. Having dogs who don't want to take their eyes off you is a good problem, as problems go though!

What's your reward placement? That is, after you click, how does the treat arrive (you hand it to the dogs? place it on the pivot? release-and-toss? etc. etc.)?
 

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Do you have a video of a session you don't mind sharing?

A few thoughts...
Make sure you are clicking movement for now, not stops. Also be careful not to click fishtailing back and forth.

By independant do you mean finding heel on their own or pivoting 360 with you out of the picture?
 

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What's your reward placement? That is, after you click, how does the treat arrive (you hand it to the dogs? place it on the pivot? release-and-toss? etc. etc.)?
This is exactly what I was thinking. I have always rewarded where I want the dog to go. So for the pivot I always rewarded with them having to turn their head to the side to kind of encourage the pivot behavior without actually luring. It breaks the eye contact and makes that okay for them to do so.

Aayla picked it up pretty quick doing that.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Okay here's the video. Some of the clicks look like nothing, but there is a weight shift happening, and Levi gets extremely frustrated, so I try to keep rate of reinforcement high. I don't know how well you can see it, but rewards come with their head turns to help "complete the turn".

If I try to wait to reward for more than two or three steps, I get alllll sorts of different offered behaviors (rear paws on, all four paws on, head under, back up...) which are hilarious, but not what I'm looking for.

 

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Are you trying to get a complete 360 degrees with you away from the platform?
If so, do they already have a spin/twirl? If they do try just cuing spin while on the platform. Translated well with my guys. Leggs originally fell off the platform in one direction beacause his rea was weaker in that direction, but would hop back on so just rewarded trying. As he got better he was able to stay on like Dexter.

If they don't have a spin and/or you really want to shape the whole thing
-take a look at how fluid their movement is when you move with them. Try clicking, holding onto the treat (keeps them in place) and moving 180+ degrees so you are on the opposite side of the platform, then finally releasing the reward. If they have good rea the will likely give you a good amount of movement to click and then reward same way and move to keep resetting. I can get a quick vid of this later if you want a visual.
-consider positions. If you have only worked them in front or facing you then they may very well the think that facing you is part of the desired behavior.
- be specific with criteria. Like if trying to shape a clockwise spin the only click the movement in the direction you want. Ignore fishtailing or moving in the oposite direction.
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It seems like in order for them to be going more than the 90* turn they're doing they would need to be not only shifting their back feet but also their upper body/line of sight away from you and be looking over their shoulder.

What about trying to step with them so that you are shifting the same time they are, and they are keeping you in the line of sight? If they're good about turning 350* with you when you turn with them, it seems easier to shape it with you stepping around with them, but facing them from a distance (I think that makes sense, but let me know, LOL, it's late here).

If they have a very strong twist/turn/twirl you could also try that, as kmes suggested
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@kmes - spin/twirl worked like a dream with Heidi! Did a couple warm ups, then asked for it on the platform and she is moving all around the platform easily! Her spin (CC) is better than her twirl, but that's true on the flat as well, so we are rewarding lots of twirls.

Levi...oh Levi. Pure frustration. When I asked he'd hop off, and complete the turn and then hop up. He used to do this when I was getting him to sit and keep his front paws on objects, so I think I'll just start with a lower platform.

Ultimately, yes. I'm using Silvia Trkman's "Heeling is Just Another Trick" to work on heeling (since that is our downfall in Rally) and the first step is getting pivots, so they can then start targeting your leg.
 

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@kmes - spin/twirl worked like a dream with Heidi! Did a couple warm ups, then asked for it on the platform and she is moving all around the platform easily! Her spin (CC) is better than her twirl, but that's true on the flat as well, so we are rewarding lots of twirls.

Levi...oh Levi. Pure frustration. When I asked he'd hop off, and complete the turn and then hop up. He used to do this when I was getting him to sit and keep his front paws on objects, so I think I'll just start with a lower platform.

Ultimately, yes. I'm using Silvia Trkman's "Heeling is Just Another Trick" to work on heeling (since that is our downfall in Rally) and the first step is getting pivots, so they can then start targeting your leg.
Oh good! Glad that worked with Heidi!

I really like that dvd. :)

We've done a ton of platform work in our heelwork and rallyfree/freestyle. Helps so much and gets you some fun freestyle behaviors like side passes in all positions, backwards circles, backwards leg weaves, defining and finding all positions etc. not just the pivots!

You can start the pivots without an independent 360. Dexter learned the independent 360s well after pivots, finding positions, etc.

If they are able to easily move with you (facing you and move together or some other version), then just get them into heel. C+t several times for maintaining position. Then move. Most clicker savvy dogs with a decent rea will at least try to move with the handler or think to try to get back to where there were rewarded. Then build from there. You can still add the target as well just by withholding the click until you feel shoulder in leg. I think I have a video of Leggs working pivots in heel and finding heel position in his training thread. He already had some understanding but was still new to him. It's def not a how to but might help with getting started with the pivots right away.
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