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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
so my parents have already bought a 8 week old Golden retriever paid through deposit and picked which puppy they were getting. They found the owners on Kijiji..

they are an old couple that has been breeding golden retrievers for 30 plus years, and this is their first time not breeding locally. They live 7 hours away from us and will be driving to meet us on July 5th. In their post they said they usually allow visits with the exception of now due to covid 19.. red flag number 1 for me. Why are they then meeting people (not just us) 7 hours away from if covid is such a concern? We can't go to meet them but they can us? My parents have seen pictures and the place is very large. Still, that doesn't really mean much to me..

And when they meet thats when we will receive all the vaccination papers, i asked about health tests but my parents didn't say anything. I asked again today and apparently they do have health tests for the parents.

The thing is I've heard of cases in which the vaccination papers have been forged. So that's another concern of mine, and I suggested my parents ask them to take photos of the vaccination and health test papers. Maybe the papers are already forged.. idk. To be honest I'm ill informed on most of this. I've read a few articles and they don't seem to pass the test for responsible breeders.. They also didn't ask much questions besides where we live.

I suppose a few potentially positive signs are that they asked for updates on our puppy. So assuming they are telling the truth, we'll be keeping in contact.

Also, since my parents paid a deposit of 400. We know where they live, account number etc. So my parents said we can "go after them" if anything were to happen. The retriever is 1500 in total I believe?

best case scenario seems to be they aren't responsible breeders in the most stringent sense. But aren't deceptive either.

Unfortunately that might be good enough for my parents. They have tried looking into shelters and breeders for months but were turned off all the paperwork, interviewing and the fact that virtually no one would accept them since we live in an apartment.

My parents also tried looking into the few small breeds that some breeders and shelters had. But according to my mum they were very noisy breeds, had a lot of health issues, or both.

And its worth noting everytime I brought up a concern, my mum knew of those concerns already.

idk. Maybe there is more to it since I haven't been involved until just a week ago. I never wanted a dog. But I should have involved myself earlier in the process. So I have fault in this too. I'll update this should the post receive a bit of attention in case new information comes to light.


So. Thoughts? What questions should I ask? Do they seem suspicious? If so, how the hell do I convince my parents to not get the dog? That's the hardest part of all this honestly.




And has anyone been in a similar situation like this and had it actually work out in the end?
 

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It's generally advised to see the puppies with the mother before committing, to guard against puppy farms/mills, which can put on a very plausible front. In fact, in the UK it's now the law. The fact that the place is ”large” could indicate farming, as could having several litters available. A question is how did they even breed during Covid restrictions, it would be unusual for a good breeder to own both sire and dam as they should be looking for a male to complement their female. And, a good breeder wouldn't normally advertise, they would have a waiting list. I don't know what Kijiji is.

So, two things to be concerned about; the health tests which you have already identified, and the risk of buying from a puppy mill. Also, as Goldens are not exactly rare, there shouldn't be any need to take risks.

The health tests for Golden Retrievers are listed here - these are tests performed on the parents prior to breeding, not a health check to say there is nothing obviously wrong with the puppy. The difference is important.


And you might find these articles on recognising puppy farms/mills helpful too.


 

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Discussion Starter #3
It's generally advised to see the puppies with the mother before committing, to guard against puppy farms/mills, which can put on a very plausible front. In fact, in the UK it's now the law. The fact that the place is ”large” could indicate farming, as could having several litters available. A question is how did they even breed during Covid restrictions, it would be unusual for a good breeder to own both sire and dam as they should be looking for a male to complement their female. And, a good breeder wouldn't normally advertise, they would have a waiting list. I don't know what Kijiji is.

So, two things to be concerned about; the health tests which you have already identified, and the risk of buying from a puppy mill. Also, as Goldens are not exactly rare, there shouldn't be any need to take risks.

The health tests for Golden Retrievers are listed here - these are tests performed on the parents prior to breeding, not a health check to say there is nothing obviously wrong with the puppy. The difference is important.


And you might find these articles on recognising puppy farms/mills helpful too.

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I just learned that they own both the sire and the dam, and they actually have another litter on the way, another adult retriever couple that they own..and of course, they live on a farm.

As for trying to recognize whether its a puppy mill/farm. Honestly, it's hard to know in the first place since they live 7 hours away, and are an old couple that label themselves technologically incompetent. We really don't know much about their dogs besides a few pictures of the adults and pups. I mean, that's already a big red flag for me, but my parents have already become emotionally invested and have been looking for a dog since the start of the year. They've also been in contact with the breeder for 7 weeks. They've bought quite a bit of dog stuff too. It's gonna be hard to convince them should i find that they are illegitimate.

Anyways, thanks for your reply, I'll try to do some more digging.
 

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The thing is, they might be ”legitimate” even if they are churning out badly bred puppies.

Or, it is possible they are not an old couple, are tech competent, and the puppies don't even exist.

There are many stories if people paying for pups that turn out not to exist and are (obviously) not delivered as arranged.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The thing is, they might be ”legitimate” even if they are churning out badly bred puppies.

Or, it is possible they are not an old couple, are tech competent, and the puppies don't even exist.

There are many stories if people paying for pups that turn out not to exist and are (obviously) not delivered as arranged.
I'm not sure I know what you mean, they could be a certified breeder and still churn out bad puppies is what ur saying?


I'm definitely not discounting that. Especially the tech savvy part. But my parents have spoken to them over the phone.. not that you can always determine age with ones voice.. but also, it would be pretty wild if they met up with us and it turns out they lied about who they are. I mean at that point its not even an attempt to hide being illegitimate. My parents would freak out.

I'm not sure it would be particularly wise especially since we didn't even pay the entire price.

They do have a daughter that supposedly helped them with the ad we saw in the first place, and posted all the pictures.

But yeah. My plan is to text the breeders asking a whole sort of questions, pics for verification of papers, and videos to see how the pups interact with the breeders, each other and the mum. They might play the "tech dumb" card. At that point I'm just gonna have to get my parents to read a bunch of articles I saved up even though I've brought up some of the things talked about in them and they've apparently done their research.
 

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You know there are red flags .

Many counrties now say what they are doind is against the law .. Here the law says the pups must be seen with the mum. Covid or not.

Georges breeder/seller is regestered and hes well known but that doesnt make him good.. He churns out litters like pies off a production line. When I asked on FB if any pups were from Georges litter it turned out there were and some born 3 days later or one week before etc etc..

My last beagle came from one of the best breeders in the country (he won shows) but he sold Benny to totally unsuitable people because all he wanted was $$$ so he didnt even do basic checks on the owners.


Have you googled the name on the paperwork or tried google maps to see if you can get a street view of the place this pup is coming from? Thats how I found out so much about George.. I used the bill of sale his first owner had and back tracked the seller/breeder read up reviews about him found his business listing etc etc. He sells beagles by the truck load but also golden retrievers and some other breeds going by old reviews.. All this from a little snooping online.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You know there are red flags .

Many counrties now say what they are doind is against the law .. Here the law says the pups must be seen with the mum. Covid or not.

Georges breeder/seller is regestered and hes well known but that doesnt make him good.. He churns out litters like pies off a production line. When I asked on FB if any pups were from Georges litter it turned out there were and some born 3 days later or one week before etc etc..

My last beagle came from one of the best breeders in the country (he won shows) but he sold Benny to totally unsuitable people because all he wanted was $$$ so he didnt even do basic checks on the owners.


Have you googled the name on the paperwork or tried google maps to see if you can get a street view of the place this pup is coming from? Thats how I found out so much about George.. I used the bill of sale his first owner had and back tracked the seller/breeder read up reviews about him found his business listing etc etc. He sells beagles by the truck load but also golden retrievers and some other breeds going by old reviews.. All this from a little snooping online.
Unfortunately my parents can't find the address they had written down and a few other bits of info.

However, I did search the number they gave us, and it is a number that is in the area they said they live in. I also found other adds they posted a while back. One was with 2 different retriever parents, and back then they did allow for visits to their place. One thing I noticed was that they would allow it on the 6th week of the pups lives, their first vaccination. Also, what they said in those ads is consistent with what they said in the one my parents saw, with the exception of visiting.

My parents said they can ask a few questions or I can How to Avoid Irresponsible Dog Breeders , so i asked my parents what if they answer suspiciously? "We'll cross that bridge when we get there" was their reply. But i fear even if the breeders answer our questions adequately, they could still lie, or give answers that are satisfying enough for my parents but not me, and its their dog after all.

And I have tried talking to my parents saying things like "the price might be lower than registered breeders and adoption shelters but in the long run we may be paying more due to possible health issues etc" and im not sure im getting my point across effectively. Im not good at explaining things in person to begin with and its hard to speak up to them sometimes since they get irritated by my constant skepticism and concern.

And every time I bring up a point my parents say they know about it, have read about it etc. I think they became tired of the constant rejection from people they talked to and being automatically disqualified from shelters that they just settled I suppose (according to my mum, because we live in an apartment), and maybe the issue is not convincing them the breeders they found are suspect, but trying to find an alternative? Since they've been looking and contacting breeders for a long time.
 
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