[Corey12]

Hello all,

I have a rescue pit as of about 6 years ago. I do not know his history but something traumatized him so badly that he is literally never content just "being". He is either directly under my feet, or engaging is a compulsion of some kind to deal with not being able to be under my feet. Eating sticks, grass, dirt, etc (not boredom, anxiety makes him do this to a point of it being dangerous, he would eat 10ft. Worth of sticks in an hour if I let him). Barking and jumping on everything and everyone he sees not out of fear ironically but hyper intense excitement, he's fully panicking at all times if I attempt to have people over, which I have now just given up on altogether. When on walks he always just decides he's bored and fights with all his might to refuse to walk anymore. He also absolutely has to be directly on top of my face if on any furniture, cannot handle just being next to me. That's when the licking starts, like the stick eating outside, when I don't let him get and stay in my face the anxiety then causes him to lick frantically and he would lick his skin off if I let him. I've tried just letting him "get it out of his system", and discovered he will never stop. He has no interest in games, toys, training techniques, etc. I've tried everything. His only goal in life is my constant attention. If my hands are not wrapped around him, it's a problem. No amount of affection is enough either, not once since the day I got him has he just went and chilled by himself.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, basically 100% of my free time is dedicated to this dog and I'm at the end of my rope, 6 years I've been his caretaker, it's like having having a severely mentally ill human to be responsible for, I have absolutely no independence whatsoever. Can't even use my own yard because he goes ballistic at the neighbor's at the mere sight of them. I love this dog with all my heart but I can't do this anymore I really can't. I wholeheartedly hate my entire existence. I just work and then deal with him, absolutely nothing else.

I've tried fluoxetine, got worse, been on clomipramine for a month now, once again way worse with absolutely no signs of improvement. I brought in a dog behaviorist and saw specialist vets, again no changes at all, he wouldn't participate in a single thing they recommended I try.

I am begging for help, I will travel across the world and pay a million dollars if somebody can train me to train him out of even one of these issues. HELP ME.

 

[JoanneF]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I think any suggestions I could make would be insufficient for the depth of the problem you have. Your dedication to him is admirable.

What is he like when you go to work? What did the behaviourist suggest, that he wouldn't participate in?

 

[LMMB]

Hi. Welcome to the forum. Sorry it's under the circumstances. You sound exhausted.

There's a lot to unpick here, so I've broken it down into pieces.

I'm going to start at the end and then go back to the beginning, because the end bit is actually the most important:

I brought in a dog behaviorist and saw specialist vets, again no changes at all, he wouldn't participate in a single thing they recommended I try.

How long did you persevere with this, and what methods did they use?

No amount of affection is enough either, not once since the day I got him has he just went and chilled by himself.

As daft as this might sound, some dogs need to be taught how to settle, and it sounds like he hasn't been taught. Here are a couple of good videos from a trainer we'd recommend:

He is either directly under my feet, or engaging is a compulsion of some kind to deal with not being able to be under my feet.

Here is an excellent article on Separation Anxiety, but, in case you haven't heard of it, there's a game called the Flitting Game about 3/4 of the way down, that might help. Depending on what you've tried in the past of course.

The Canine Consultants

Barking and jumping on everything and everyone he sees not out of fear ironically but hyper intense excitement,

There'll be an invisible threshold, where, as long as the person or the Interesting Thing is on the outside of that threshold, he'll be able to function like a normal dog. This threshold might be on the horizon somewhere, but it will be there. Find that barrier, and keep the Interest Things on the outside.

If that's not possible, look for natural and manmade barriers to the line of sight - cars, hedges, walls - even your hand.

he's fully panicking at all times if I attempt to have people over, which I have now just given up on altogether

When on walks he always just decides he's bored and fights with all his might to refuse to walk anymore.

So turn around and head home - preferably before he gets to the point where he's bored. If he gets bored after say 20mins, head home after 15.

He also absolutely has to be directly on top of my face if on any furniture, cannot handle just being next to me.

That's when the licking starts, like the stick eating outside, when I don't let him get and stay in my face the anxiety then causes him to lick frantically and he would lick his skin off if I let him.

Licking is a natural, self-soothing behaviour for dogs, but in this case, it's manifesting in an unacceptable way. Have you tried giving him a likkimat or a stuffed, frozen kong to work on while he sits right beside you?

It might also help in teaching him to settle.

 

[Corey12]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I think any suggestions I could make would be insufficient for the depth of the problem you have. Your dedication to him is admirable.

What is he like when you go to work? What did the behaviourist suggest, that he wouldn't participate in?

Hello, thank you, I do love him I just want both of us to be separate entities. I will keep trying forever but I am a shell of a person at this point..anyways the behaviorst suggested

Two minimum 30 minute walks a day
Giving another medication a try
A weighted pack back
Seeing the vet specialist I mentioned

There were a few other small things but the problem is always the same, he cannot pull his self away from his obsession with me to even perform basic motor functions. The weighted backpack he just froze, refused to move. The walk issues are sudden and unpredictable, in the blink of an eye he just stops, changing direction doesn't work either, there's something in somebody's yard he wants to investigate, which sounds innocent but to him this is all life or death. Nothing distracts him when he's in the zone with this behavior. I'm not kidding I've even considered the fact he may be deaf (determined he is not)

When I'm gone he is perfect, neither him or my other dog are crated and they just sleep all day. That's what's crazy, once I'm gone he just deals with it, it's when he can see me that's the issue, he cannot handle knowing I'm physically reachable and not being in my face.

 

[Corey12]

Hi. Welcome to the forum. Sorry it's under the circumstances. You sound exhausted.

There's a lot to unpick here, so I've broken it down into pieces.

I'm going to start at the end and then go back to the beginning, because the end bit is actually the most important:


How long did you persevere with this, and what methods did they use?



As daft as this might sound, some dogs need to be taught how to settle, and it sounds like he hasn't been taught. Here are a couple of good videos from a trainer we'd recommend:

Here is an excellent article on Separation Anxiety, but, in case you haven't heard of it, there's a game called the Flitting Game about 3/4 of the way down, that might help. Depending on what you've tried in the past of course.

The Canine Consultants



There'll be an invisible threshold, where, as long as the person or the Interesting Thing is on the outside of that threshold, he'll be able to function like a normal dog. This threshold might be on the horizon somewhere, but it will be there. Find that barrier, and keep the Interest Things on the outside.

If that's not possible, look for natural and manmade barriers to the line of sight - cars, hedges, walls - even your hand.




So turn around and head home - preferably before he gets to the point where he's bored. If he gets bored after say 20mins, head home after 15.





Licking is a natural, self-soothing behaviour for dogs, but in this case, it's manifesting in an unacceptable way. Have you tried giving him a likkimat or a stuffed, frozen kong to work on while he sits right beside you?

It might also help in teaching him to settle.

Hello and thank you, I will check out the videos and articles asap,

As for the walking thing there are no warning signs, he just stops, changing direction doesn't help, treats don't help, etc. He wants to go sideways and onto other people's property for what he thinks is something fascinating.

I promise you I am not trying to be rude but all of these suggestions require that he listens or even attempts to listen to me. He absolutely will not. To him these issues are literally life or death. Under no circumstances will traditional training work because again he can't even begin without understanding that I'm speaking let alone what I'm actually trying to say.

The behaviorist suggested I use a weighted backpack, he refused to move with it on. Two minimum 30 minute walks a day, which again are genuinely impossible. And see a vet specialist who suggested fish oil, b12, and clomipramine which so far have only been affective in draining my bank account.

Again please please do not take any of what I'm saying as dismissive but I need everyone to understand I have spent countless weeks upon weeks researching how do deal with this and not one thing has even "kind of" made a difference. I will keep trying though but things like kongs (both my dogs get giant frozen kongs filled with peanut butter, pumpkin, berries, and banana every day, keeps them busy maximum 5 minutes if im lucky) and just turning around on walks I don't have the mental energy to talk about anymore..

Take every traditional dog with anxiety you've ever seen, and every technique you've ever known, throw it out the window. Something is going to need discovered brand new in the field of medicine and behavior to deal with this. The answer is out there, and I will try your suggestions, but I am guaranteeing you they will not work.

 

[JoanneF]

If he deals well with your absence when he knows you are not there, what is he like with other people? Could hiring a dog walker be an option? Or, as a last resort, even rehoming him with someone he won't be as obsessed with?

 

[Shadowfox]

To him these issues are literally life or death.... he can't even begin without understanding that I'm speaking

This is one of the key pieces. If one were actively caught in a natural disaster or alien invasion, with everyone screaming and running away, and one of your parents looked at you and said, "Tell me what 2+2 is." That....would be irrelevant to your situation, and you're going to blow them off. This dog appears to view very benign things like that. At this point, he probably physically cannot function enough to even mentally comprehend a voice, let alone what it is saying.

So...would even tinier steps maybe move the needle? Something you could try today and tell us about? For example, breaking down @LMMB 's licking a Kong next to you even further. Could it be tried and modified where he's on your lap licking the Kong as you hold it, rather than on your face? The difference being he can stay off your face for some miniscule period of time?

Have you tried pattern games? I'm thinking "Ping Pong," at your feet to start.

https://buildingbondstraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Reactive-Dog-Pattern-Games-with-Links.pdf

Medications are tricky. Has a medical human-grade CBD oil, where you can adjust the dosage (within reason) yourself with little negative effects been tried?

Something is going to need discovered brand new in the field of medicine and behavior to deal with this

I know you're tired and mentally wrung out, and all my sympathies. We can't help with the medicine part, but we might be able to help with the behavior end. But, that takes us knowing a lot of information and trial and error, and what happened, so we can tweak and try again. The fact that he can function (albeit asleep) when you are unreachable gives me hope.

I'm going to do a deep dive in research to see if I can find something and be back. I had a puppy into adulthood with medical issues I had a hard time getting a vet or trainer to consider seriously, so I don't believe the casual one has all the answers (neither do I, but I have free time).

 

[Corey12]

If he deals well with your absence when he knows you are not there, what is he like with other people? Could hiring a dog walker be an option? Or, as a last resort, even rehoming him with someone he won't be as obsessed with?

Oh he's great with everybody aggression wise, it's the opposite. He has to have everybody's constant attention. He thinks if he's left alone even if people are near by, that he is either unsafe or about to be abandoned. I'm talking a distance of 10 feet away is enough to trigger him. Dog walker would probably not work though, it would be dangerous, I have another dog and he pulls while this one stops, it's scary to get stuck sometimes. They also try to get at neighbor dogs even just in windows, which is hard to physically handle. I couldn't ask anybody else to deal with it and feel comfortable with it.

My next attempts are maybe separate, individual walks, and get a third opinion about possible physical pain. Alot of me thinks this may be a case of a rare hard to find physical issue he has going on. I wouldn't be able to relax either in that case. I also have my own case of ocd and depression, heavily stemming from him, I need help too we may be feeding off each other.

I could never forgive myself if I gave up on him. If I didn't have the means to handle it that'd be one thing, but I do I just need to find the fix. Money is no issue, I have a house and big yard, and he has another dog he loves in the house.

Oh and switching foods was another recommendation by the behaviorist. I use royal canin medium adult now, after a ton of research. Used to feed him blue Buffalo chicken and rice.

 

[agility collie mom]

Maybe try a different behaviorist. Not all behaviorists are the same. Some are better than others. That being said there are some dogs that simply will never be able to cope with the world. I have a friend who had a dog from puppy hood and had never been abused. He had severe behavioral issues. She tried everything: behaviorists, multiple medications, etc. His behavior continued to escalate as he grew. He started to become aggressive out of fear of the world. In the end she had him pts simply because in his mind the world was an extremely frightening place. I do believe that there is inherited mental health issues even in the animal world. I cannot image living in a world where everything is frightening. Always having to be on edge would be exhausting. My friend did not want to put him to sleep but the poor dog needed peace in his world. She gave him that release in the end. To this day she still will cry if you ask her about him.

 

[agility collie mom]

You may find this of interest. Dog brain scans & human-canine emotions | IVC Journal

 

[DogRun]

Sounds to me like he needs to reset and then things need to start at the beginning, with extremely slow, easy steps to build up his confidence. Just some thoughts/questions about the things that worked for me:

1. Can you take a break for a few days, to unwind and regroup? Either go somewhere without the dog(s) or even just have somebody take the pit for a few days?

2. Is he safe off leash? If yes, are decompression walks an option for you? As in, you drive somewhere where you can have a safe offleash (or long line) walk in nature? No pressure, as much sniffing as he wants? Sarah Stremming is a good resource for more on decompression walks (podcast or website). Might be more relaxing to just do it one dog at a time.

3. Another good alternative for a walk for stressed dogs is the “rucksack walk”. Steve Mann (youtube) is a good resource for this. This should be with just this one dog, not both.

4. Nose activities. Have you tried any easy nose work games and did they work? Was he interested? But anyhow, an interesting thing one of the trainers here does is scent swap: if the dog is not comfortable outside of its own environment, the idea is that they still need enrichment of sniffing something new, so they bring the world to the dog instead of the dog into the world. Can be as simple as bringing 3-10new objects that smell like other people or animals to your dog each day, set them out on the floor and let him explore. Clothes, toys, books… from friends or second hand stores, garage sales, sidewalk finds, freeboxes or book exchanges work well.

5. Sounds like it would be necessary to work with a good vet in this case. Do you have a good enough relationship with your vet, do you trust them? Is there anyone that specializes in treating anxiety around you?

6. I might be wrong, but walks + backpack are often something CM-inspired behaviorists tend to recommend. Do you know what exactly your behaviorist’s credentials were and what methods they subscribed to? Was this just advice or did they actually work with the dog to introduce what they suggested? Did they tweak their suggestions when it didn’t work? There is some truth in benefits of exercise and “a job” for dogs with anxiety, of course, but there are important nuances to that that, especially in ways to choose and introduce appropriate “jobs” and activities and how to build the dog’s confidence. The job must be individualized to the specific dog’s interests skills. Backpack can be great for the right dog - but can often be a red flag for generic advice by trainers from this specific school of thought.

7. The key thing for generalized anxiety is predictable environment, a perception that you (as in, you the dog) have choices and control over what happens to you. Keeping routines and building rituals to deal with triggers (exactly what to do when meeting people,…) is often helpful. A good behaviorist would look at your environment and habits in detail, pinpoint stress points and build predictable, soothing rituals around common occurrences. Leslie McDevitt has some good games and rituals for this.

8. Have you ever tried specifically training him to be ok close to you but not on top of you, like in his crate or bed, or in another room? In very, very small steps?

Edit: just read some replies that popped up as I was writing. I agree with most things, including that sometimes euthanasia is s kinder way for a dog that is extremely stressed and anxious, as hard as that might be.

 

[Laco]

Just kind of wondering if perhaps there is something neurological going on. Perhaps a neurologist could do a neurological workup on him and shed some light on his behavior. That could lead to a diagnosis that might lead to a medication that would be more effective. I know there are a lot of 'could's mights and maybe's' in there but?????

 

[Shadowfox]

I've returned. Second Laco's slant towards a neural/neural chemical cause.

A serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and/or gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) imbalance, release, or syndrome might be in play. Oxytocin might have an effect on this, since he seems to worsen when his brain gets an uptake in oxytocin (I'm assuming).

Clomipramine is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor; you might have better luck with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) or serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor (SNRI). Clomipramine stops the serotonin and noradrenaline that has been released from being reabsorbed back into the nerve cells in the brain. So....might be more of a GABA, norepinephrine, or dopamine issue, unless the issue is not enough serotonin and//or norodrenaline.

Mutational causes might be on chromosome 11, gene MAPK9, gene SLITRK5. Not conclusive, but something.

Wisdom Panel and Embark have margins for error, but both claim to test for 200 or more mutations, so might be worth consideration. I do not know (atm anyways) is the genes I mentioned are on the panels.

 

[BBrwn]

The depth and complexity not to mention empathy of the replies to your predicament is astonishing. I was feeling pretty good about my own commitment to my little neurotic and proud of the progress we've made in the two years we've been together but it sounds like you are on the verge of giving yours up. Excuse me if I am veering out of my lane but your mental health comes first and from your detailed account I submit that you are putting yourself in grave danger. Such a degree of stress can lead to all kinds of physiological conditions, some life-threatening. The dog sounds pretty "gone" already to me and if I were you, I'd let him "go". That's a lot for someone so inexperienced to say but there it is. Good luck.

 

[DogRun]

Well, I would first try many, many, many things before thinking about euthanizing. But if the animal can not have a decent quality of life, I would consider it. It sounds like the OP still has the resources and the desire to help the dog.

I think we are contributing many little tidbits that might be helpful, but above all, a very anxious and fearful animal needs a holistic approach, because trying one thing and then another can be confusing and counterproductive. As good as a technique might be, it’s unlikely to work in isolation. A good professional that can look at the situation objectively, understands these specific issues, has the big picture in mind, but is capable of guiding you towards it in little, achievable steps, is worth their weight in gold.

 

[BigBlackDog]

When I'm gone he is perfect, neither him or my other dog are crated and they just sleep all day. That's what's crazy, once I'm gone he just deals with it, it's when he can see me that's the issue, he cannot handle knowing I'm physically reachable and not being in my face.

This proves the dog has no neurotransmitter issues, or any other medical problem. It's a learned behavior...easily fixed with training (of both you and the dog!).

I also have my own case of ocd and depression, heavily stemming from him, I need help too we may be feeding off each other.

Doing, ding ding! This is exactly what's going on from your description, and is easily fixed with some training - of both of you! Just understand that you've been in this rut for several years, so it's not going to go away overnight!

Where are you located, maybe someone here can recommend a good trainer to help you.

I would personally volunteer if you're close enough...

 

[Harleymcfarley]

Hello all,

I have a rescue pit as of about 6 years ago. I do not know his history but something traumatized him so badly that he is literally never content just "being". He is either directly under my feet, or engaging is a compulsion of some kind to deal with not being able to be under my feet. Eating sticks, grass, dirt, etc (not boredom, anxiety makes him do this to a point of it being dangerous, he would eat 10ft. Worth of sticks in an hour if I let him). Barking and jumping on everything and everyone he sees not out of fear ironically but hyper intense excitement, he's fully panicking at all times if I attempt to have people over, which I have now just given up on altogether. When on walks he always just decides he's bored and fights with all his might to refuse to walk anymore. He also absolutely has to be directly on top of my face if on any furniture, cannot handle just being next to me. That's when the licking starts, like the stick eating outside, when I don't let him get and stay in my face the anxiety then causes him to lick frantically and he would lick his skin off if I let him. I've tried just letting him "get it out of his system", and discovered he will never stop. He has no interest in games, toys, training techniques, etc. I've tried everything. His only goal in life is my constant attention. If my hands are not wrapped around him, it's a problem. No amount of affection is enough either, not once since the day I got him has he just went and chilled by himself.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, basically 100% of my free time is dedicated to this dog and I'm at the end of my rope, 6 years I've been his caretaker, it's like having having a severely mentally ill human to be responsible for, I have absolutely no independence whatsoever. Can't even use my own yard because he goes ballistic at the neighbor's at the mere sight of them. I love this dog with all my heart but I can't do this anymore I really can't. I wholeheartedly hate my entire existence. I just work and then deal with him, absolutely nothing else.

I've tried fluoxetine, got worse, been on clomipramine for a month now, once again way worse with absolutely no signs of improvement. I brought in a dog behaviorist and saw specialist vets, again no changes at all, he wouldn't participate in a single thing they recommended I try.

I am begging for help, I will travel across the world and pay a million dollars if somebody can train me to train him out of even one of these issues. HELP ME.

Hi, So sorry to hear you and your lovely dog are in this situation. I have been through a similar thing, however my pup got very aggressive and would bit and attack for no apparent reason. He too was on fluoxetine and another medication that I cannot even remember the name of now. Neither helped as unfortunately my boy had something wrong in the wiring in his brain causing severe mental health issues. Believe me I tried everything. Several trainers, different vets opinions and even rehoming because I thought it was my fault. Nothing worked and nothing was ever going to. I am so sad and totally devastated to say that I had to end up having him put to sleep. He was suffering to the point where neither one of us was getting any sleep and he was in constant turmoil. I really truly and seriously hope that you get the help you need as I know how hard, tiring and maddening it is. Keep me posted.