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Discussion Starter #1
As far as I'm concerned, my posting were on point. People can feel free to beat on Cesar Millan. Victoria Stilwell however, highly recommended - purely positive - but yet, a dark side. The issue here is what the owners do with the information they get.

My second post was actually a feather in Traciek's cap -- the issue with all sides and styles of training is that people don't listen, they don't try to understand the entire concept of what they are getting into before they actually jump in with both feet - the dog suffers for it. And that goes for any training method. The woman in Tracie's initial post was wrong to be doing that to her dog - that is not what Cesar teaches - and if an owner is having to repeatedly hold her dog down, that's wrong. That's reactive, not proactive.

I brought up the example of one member using Ian Dunbar's method of housebreaking a dog - my math shows the puppy is locked in a crate for 14 hours a day - that's not what Dunbar teaches. That's someone reading chapter one and not the entire book - and moving forward to train the dog. Dunbar actually teaches to get the dog out and socialize it right away, not lock it in a kennel away from the world. I actually like Dunbar.

Sorry if it was taken the wrong way but...
 

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The issue here is repeated rule violations....

Let's take a look at the posts in this particular situation.

This is the original post that started the thread:
traciek88 said:
I just had to vent about this because it really bothered me. The business I work for had the building's "doggy playdate" today. While we were there this other walker (a big Cesar Milan fan, she's always doing those stupid "cchtz" noises and basically strangles the dogs she handles). She was at the run with a puppy even though we booked the dog run because she didn't know. Someone tried to get out of the run and this nervous little fluff ran out. This woman GRABS a 4 lb Pomeranian and scruffs her and holds her down in a terrified on her back position. I mean wtf? It pissed me off even more because this dog is generally nervous and also elderly, deaf, nearly toothless and has a deformed spine. Granted, that's not visible but what in hell would warrant grabbing a teensy weensy dog like that when the area outside the run is enclosed anyway? Seriously, it was clear to anyone who knows anything about dogs that she was scared, and we would've just gone after her and scooped her up. Ugh... I just want to tell all her clients she mistreats the dogs. But the awful this is she looks better/more in control than I do because I'm stupidly clumsy and walk the dogs on EZ walk harnesses and don't choke them.
And your first 2 responses (posts #3 & 4 as iirc only rain had posted before you and she was on topic):
jagger said:
So... In comparison to the beloved Victoria Stilwell - recommending a dog that wasn't that aggressive being put down? Absolutely dangerous dog?

Benjy's the Dog that Victoria Stillwell Killed... by Phone. - YouTube
jagger said:
I'll respond but lets take Victoria a few steps further...

Attacked by a police dog? Really Vicky?
https://positively.com/victorias-blog/my-police-dog-dog-bite-accident/

Bulldog bites a kid - she does nothing to help from the get go - but she's yelling naughty dog as the owner drags the dog - literally drags it out the door by the neck? Really Vicky? This is purely positive? You'll never see Cesar do that...
Victoria Stillwell allows the escalate of the bad behaviour and Child gets bitten by a dog! - YouTube

Then proclaims herself the "god" of purely positive training? Are you kidding me?
Victoria Stillwell Proclameid herself be the "God" of the "Purely Positive" training Dogma - YouTube

The woman is incompetent.

More to come...
How exactly is the above on topic? It's not. The original post is a rant, looking for some support and maybe a bit of advice as to how to handle the situation. It is not about Victoria Stilwell nor any of the controversy around her. If you wished to have discussed that you should have started a new thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
kmes;3159026How exactly is the above on topic? It's not. The original post is a rant said:
Yeah, I guess I went little overboard.

On point - it's to show that trainers on all sides of the spectrum screw up - even Cesar does and he admits it. Stilwell has a massive following, highly regarded but if people want to believe Cesar has a dark side, then lets make it fair. But ok, fair enough, Tracie wanted to rant about Cesar Millans followers - the woman in her initial post isn't following Cesar - that was explained in my last post. I'm experiencing all too often that people using both balanced AND purely positive techniques are doing it the wrong way - and making the dog worse. Reading chapter one of Dunbars book for example, and having a dog spend 14 hours a day locked up is not the right way.

Tracie's response was deleted as well...

jagger Um...to be perfectly honest I don't know about about Stillwell to give much of an opinion, but these things do seem questionable. I do think that any trainer (or anyone's really) TV personality/presentation is something you can't take for face value. But to be perfectly honest I don't know why you even brought her up because she was never mentioned and has nothing to do with what I said. I'm specifically pointing out that the Milan/harsh methods of treating dogs are damaging, especially for many dogs (like the little Pom today). And since this is a positive style training site I thought others might udnerstand.
So her point is, Cesar and ALL of his methods are harsh - unfortunately they are misunderstood as well. If people are learning and applying the training methods incorrectly - matters not if it's positive or balanced, then it's pure wrong. And I'm pretty sure if I started a post about Stilwell, i'd have my legs chewed off.

I think people need to take a step back and realize the power these forums have - and the effects on the dogs you're trying to help... I had initially signed up here, posted for a bit - then stopped. What brought me back was a friends dog - he was told by one of these forums, pretty sure it was this one - to crate his dog, wasn't explained how to do it properly, wasn't explained that it was a means to an end KMES - just do it. Dog has been living a life of misery ever since and I can't tell him any different. And since then there's been postings about crating that simply make me and others cringe - crate a high energy dog instead of tending to its' needs.

Is that the forums fault? No. Is it your fault? No, it's not - but the forum owners are providing the media for it to happen. I fully understand that this is a positive forum - but there's many ways to be positive - and negative.

If I came off the wrong way, I do apologize.
 

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If your friend got bad advice, that stinks. However, it is on him to research and choose the method he is most comfortable using. I have yet to see a thread with a single reply. When people come here asking for help, many people offer OPINIONS based on what has worked for THEM. It doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. I highly doubt someone came here with a training concern and the only reply was 'lock your dog in a crate all day, everyday'.

It really seems like you don't enjoy being a member of this forum, so I have to wonder why you stay. You disagree with 95% of what is posted, you are constantly taking threads off topic (like this one) and you seem to believe that none of us are credible because all we do is 'throw treats at our dogs'.
 

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I'm not going to get into training methods with you here. What we need to discuss and come to an understanding about are the forum rules.

Have you read the rules? Do you understand them? If you haven't read them please do. I included the link in my pm. If you don't understand the rules, ask us some questions so we can clear up any confusion.

If you do understand the rules and are choosing to ignore them, then you had also better familiarize yourself with the infraction system and our policy (should be linked in the rules and if not can be viewed in the rules subforum).
 

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Forums are not to be used as a substitute for paid training. This is a place where dog owners can come and discuss what has worked for them with their personal dogs. Users should not be using advice they got on the internet as the end all be all for their training. That is why many people recommend users to SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP. (Even though many of us are or were dog training professionals).

I really hope you do take the time to read the rules and stick to them. If you do not agree with the rules then I recommend to evaluate why you have chosen to be a member of this forum.
 
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