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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
its really sad to see that when a long time member of this forum is just about homeless that a few of you and the mods at that are turning against my friend who has done everything she can, who is having health issues, about to be on the street[/B] you know this member very well as she has worked wonders with Koda who is very reactive and that hasnt been easy for her yet they both have come out trumps and very happy! i also know her personal circumstances which i wont repeat because its private and she is having a major tough time.

We chat on facebook alot and ive been supporting her and advising her myself (i never advised to pts if thats what you think)as Jessie was a challenge but doppler is 10,000 times worse then Jessie was as a teenager and that is saying alot.

What has happened to this forum lately? its nowhere near the same it used to be when i first joined. heck she might have to give up koda and her bunny and her house and a few of you turn on her like this? very sad indeed
 

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Zoe, Phoenix, Alice - ACDx
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@crazy, I have moved your post to the TTTT forum as it was OT.

I know you're not thrilled with me but it is what it is. She would not be nearly homeless had she not quit her job and there are options other than killing the dog.
 

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I offered actual advice. Advice that could help. Because I wanted to help.

I was cordial in disagreeing with her choice. Not sure how or why this would be considered ''turning on her''... just as regular members are free to disagree as long as rules are not broken, so are mods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Im very dissapointed in you both and too angry to discuss it with you both though im not sure if i will be returning to the forum again after seeing that.....

end of day she has done her absolute best by doppler im in frequent contact with her he is very very hard to train as well and worse then jessie was.

that was like a pure attack and i need space right now but yeah dont think im coming back here again. you need to put yourself in someone elses shoes and think how it would be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
@kmes i felt you and zoesmom were turning against her i did i really felt like you both were ignoring the obvious thing: that she cant afford a professional dog trainer let alone her rent, groceries , dog food but i now see @kmes that you were trying to help and i am sorry. she is actually doing a course to become a qualified dog trainer to help dogs and owners.

the last thing @ZoesMom that she wants to do is kill a dog but absolutely no one will re home him or take him on not even any other fosters. Its very sad and i dont support putting dogs to sleep normally but from what she has told me its not possible to keep him or get him professional help without the resources and funds. Also @ZoesMom theres more then meets the eye with the circumstances that she had to give up the job she had so please be aware theres more behind that story which i wont reveal.

Im not returning to this forum anymore i havent been happy for quite awhile now and its nowhere near what it used to be and has gone downhill alot and im not leaving because of you both i have my health and personal circumstances to take care of and put first.

I honestly dont know i will ever return again but i wont say i never will because parents once told me we wil never ever live back in england and look at us now mum is back there and dad and i plus Jessie are moving back so never say never is what ive learnt over the past 6 or so months.

I just felt like she was being cornered and attacked with the replies and enough was enough. i sincerely thank @zoorun for closing that thread when she did. it was the right thing to do.

I dont want to leave on a bad note so i wish you all the best with your futures etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Just to say thank you for all the help Jessie and I recieved in the past without it she may not have turned into the fantastic dog she is now so all the past help has been appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
As I might return one day I'd like to say that in a few or so days I will be ready to talk if you all still want to talk about this. Right now I'm feeling knackered rough and worried about my gran who is as of few hours ago back in hospital admitted. I will also be calm in a few days and in much better space.

Just thought I'd put the offer there i don't want any hard feelings if I do return esp to let members know how move goes when in UK. When confronted or someone wants to discuss things straight after an event well not a good idea with me as I verbally lash out and lose control of my emotions and in bad space at the time.

I do have to say thank you. For putting it in here and not have zoesmom private message me I greatly greatly appreciate it ,as for me her wording is too sharp , too stern and makes me feel very shaken up. For awhile now I haven't liked her I do admit but I get over it and move on and don't let it affect me long term. End of day any mistakes I make are accidental honest ones.
 

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I was hoping we could all just let personal issues go and move on with our lives...
I can see it might not be so easy...

As I might return one day I'd like to say that in a few or so days I will be ready to talk if you all still want to talk about this. Right now I'm feeling knackered rough and worried about my gran who is as of few hours ago back in hospital admitted. I will also be calm in a few days and in much better space.
I thought you had decided to stay as I saw you online most of the day yesterday! :p

I am sorry to hear your grandmother in in the hospital. I hope she will be ok!:)

crazy said:
Just thought I'd put the offer there i don't want any hard feelings if I do return esp to let members know how move goes when in UK. When confronted or someone wants to discuss things straight after an event well not a good idea with me as I verbally lash out and lose control of my emotions and in bad space at the time.
I really don't think there will be hard feelings if you decide to stay.

If you wish to discuss with me (I'm ok agreeing to disagree and not talking further), my take on the Doppler situation, you are going to have to be sure you are able to stay at least cordial. I won't tolerate outright rudeness or being lashed out at. I am willing to share my pov, but know I tend to be straight forward in discussing disagreements here. And I won't discuss endlessly. Just want to be upfront with you on that.

I would also expect that our discussion be kept for the most part here and between us. If other people want to discuss this as well, then they should post in the TTTT section to hear straight from us. I don't like third party pm'ing (too much exaggeration and quotes being taken out of context) or issues being taken to emails, facebook, etc.

:thumbsup:

crazy said:
I do have to say thank you. For putting it in here and not have zoesmom private message me I greatly greatly appreciate it ,as for me her wording is too sharp , too stern and makes me feel very shaken up. For awhile now I haven't liked her I do admit but I get over it and move on and don't let it affect me long term. End of day any mistakes I make are accidental honest ones.
Zoesmom moved this here.

For the record, personal issues with mods/mod actions should only be posted in the TTTT section of the forum. You could PM, but personally I only discuss issues like this here as I want a clear record.

Also, a new thread on issues regarding a closed thread will likely always be removed. Threads are closed for a reason. And when we close threads, the discussion on the open forum is done. Issues need to come here. Or if the issue is personal and with a regular member you can try to work it out via pm.

I am sorry to hear how you feel about zoesmom, but if you want to stay you will need to get along and listen to her should she need to address a situation with you.

Often when addressing rule violations and other issues we are upfront, even blunt. I am too. I've been doing this so long that I've learned it often does no good to sugar coat everything. Easier just to say what needs to be said and move on. It's not a personal thing. It's just us doing our jobs.
 

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Crazy, you're seriously still mad at me for pm'ing you a warning for breaking rules? I could of easily skipped the warning and given you an infraction. I sent you the regular warning we send everyone. That's not being stern or sharp. It's the same exact message that absolutely everyone gets when they don't follow our rules. It's not personal at all.

Attached is the copy of the message I sent you.

Are you forgetting all those times where I sent your really nice PMs and answered your earlier threads about Jessie?

As for the situation with Kwenami, I am allowed to have feelings and to disagree with her. Just because I'm a moderator does not change the fact that I don't agree with what she's doing and it's okay for me to say so. I honestly believe that if the person wasn't kwenami all the regular members would of jumped on the same bandwagon as me and been pissed but because this is a friend we're okay with killing a dog without her trying to get the dog some help. Help that is actually pretty darn cheap and easily affordable. Kwenami made her own choices and put herself in the situation she is in. That is not Doppler's fault.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I was hoping we could all just let personal issues go and move on with our lives...
I can see it might not be so easy...


I thought you had decided to stay as I saw you online most of the day yesterday! :p

I am sorry to hear your grandmother in in the hospital. I hope she will be ok!:)


I really don't think there will be hard feelings if you decide to stay.

If you wish to discuss with me (I'm ok agreeing to disagree and not talking further), my take on the Doppler situation, you are going to have to be sure you are able to stay at least cordial. I won't tolerate outright rudeness or being lashed out at. I am willing to share my pov, but know I tend to be straight forward in discussing disagreements here. And I won't discuss endlessly. Just want to be upfront with you on that.

I would also expect that our discussion be kept for the most part here and between us. If other people want to discuss this as well, then they should post in the TTTT section to hear straight from us. I don't like third party pm'ing (too much exaggeration and quotes being taken out of context) or issues being taken to emails, facebook, etc.

:thumbsup:


Zoesmom moved this here.

For the record, personal issues with mods/mod actions should only be posted in the TTTT section of the forum. You could PM, but personally I only discuss issues like this here as I want a clear record.

Also, a new thread on issues regarding a closed thread will likely always be removed. Threads are closed for a reason. And when we close threads, the discussion on the open forum is done. Issues need to come here. Or if the issue is personal and with a regular member you can try to work it out via pm.

I am sorry to hear how you feel about zoesmom, but if you want to stay you will need to get along and listen to her should she need to address a situation with you.

Often when addressing rule violations and other issues we are upfront, even blunt. I am too. I've been doing this so long that I've learned it often does no good to sugar coat everything. Easier just to say what needs to be said and move on. It's not a personal thing. It's just us doing our jobs.
I am only logging in to private message as the thread I created about my leaving I didn't want anyone worrying long term about my sudden departure so private message is the way to go. If i was staying I'd be posting on the forum which I haven't. I will only log in to Pm certain friends who haven't Facebook.p

Re my gran thanks i sure hope she pull through this.

Re being lashed out at that's why I wait a few days before I do discuss anything so there's less chance of that happening I will soon learn if that's part of my disability or just me when get assessed 10th March it will be nice to get answers.

I'm surprised zoesmom moved it here but thankful she didn't pm me but move it here. In the beginning all was good with her I just can't place when I started getting shook up. May I suggest looking at rewording of warnings for the members who are regular and hardly make a mistake to warrant it? Maybe it can be asked if what we did wrong was a honest mistake? Then instead of using the word infraction which to me seems threatening find a different word. I agree for the members who constantly break rules it's appropriate otherwise but some people like me are very sensitive to the warning and really take it personally hence look at rewording. Not saying to sugarcoat it at though. I also take them very personally especially from zoesmom as she is the only one who warns me and I feel she really doesn't like me? I do try get along with her.and I do really listen when I get warnings no joke there.....

Would be nice if it wasn't always zoesmom Doing them though but a different mod at times its how I've come to only associate zoesmom with trouble and be wary of her.

For most part it mostly is kept between us i do however talk to a friend bout it on Facebook who has amazing insight and wisdom and a friend I truly can trust. At time getting a second opinion and view on it is very helpful from. Friend.


As for zoesmom and Doppler thread she Really got far too angry and attacked miniature horse never mind what she said to kwenami that it was called for I don't agree there and angry at how she was with them. It was most upsetting.

I realise mods can agree to disagree but I know other were seriously taken back by how she came across. I don't think it's a pernament leave right now maybe few month or so. Just can't cope with everything right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Crazy, you're seriously still mad at me for pm'ing you a warning for breaking rules? I could of easily skipped the warning and given you an infraction. I sent you the regular warning we send everyone. That's not being stern or sharp. It's the same exact message that absolutely everyone gets when they don't follow our rules. It's not personal at all.

Attached is the copy of the message I sent you.

Are you forgetting all those times where I sent your really nice PMs and answered your earlier threads about Jessie?

As for the situation with Kwenami, I am allowed to have feelings and to disagree with her. Just because I'm a moderator does not change the fact that I don't agree with what she's doing and it's okay for me to say so. I honestly believe that if the person wasn't kwenami all the regular members would of jumped on the same bandwagon as me and been pissed but because this is a friend we're okay with killing a dog without her trying to get the dog some help. Help that is actually pretty darn cheap and easily affordable. Kwenami made her own choices and put herself in the situation she is in. That is not Doppler's fault.
Zoesmom no not angry but very wary of you for some time I realise you have a job to do but be nice if you weren't always the one messaging me so I can become less wary of you. It was the word infraction that shook me up badly. Wow I really took it hard and personally! Just feel you might have something against me and not like me as its only you who does the private messaging.

Btw when you say you could of skipped th warning and given me inflraction that's threatening me.
My memory is shocking right now and has been getting worse. Remember the past well mostly but the rest of it now got to stage I miss important appointments etc.

I don't remember those Pm no but I remember how helpful you were in th beginning esp with getting her to go down ad you did video for.me and posted it for me?

If you re the only one going to Pm me can you if it's nothing personal let me know that in the first sentence please? That's way I won't take it personally. Be nice if was a diff mod now and then though.

It was the first time I got a warning off you that i got rally angry and upset took me a week to move on.

I don't stay angry forever to you it takes a few days to get over it but never stay angry after that but wary of you for sure. If I right you are a headstrong person and I think we may clash at times? Other then above no issues with you what so ever

Also I don't think it was her idea but the partner idea about Doppler Trust.me I'm the last person whom supports anything like abortion and killing a dog killing anything really but my friend needs support she has exhausted all options and its last resort for her. Once I had to support friend who chose to have an abortion no way do I agree but instead of arguing and falling out I had to be a true friend and support her. Not everyone yourself included know of everything she goes and has been through with him. He needs so much work and time from her she hasn't been able to look for a job.

So chatting with her onfacebook knowing it all and knowing she really want to keep him but tried so hard and so much exhausted all rescoures in lots of debt she needs someone to adopt or take him which they won't leaving that the only option if she wants a job and to look afternher own health.

Fwiw I'd never put my dogs down without medical Reason being where they are too sick and no life in them. Unlike her I have a very supportive family who would help right away and not see me stuck if they could help it. She doesn't have that if she did I'm positive she have a professional trainer help.

She got told by medical professionals more then one of them she has to leave her job so she took their professional advice.
 

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I'm surprised zoesmom moved it here but thankful she didn't pm me but move it here. In the beginning all was good with her I just can't place when I started getting shook up. May I suggest looking at rewording of warnings for the members who are regular and hardly make a mistake to warrant it? Maybe it can be asked if what we did wrong was a honest mistake? Then instead of using the word infraction which to me seems threatening find a different word. I agree for the members who constantly break rules it's appropriate otherwise but some people like me are very sensitive to the warning and really take it personally hence look at rewording. Not saying to sugarcoat it at though. I also take them very personally especially from zoesmom as she is the only one who warns me and I feel she really doesn't like me? I do try get along with her.and I do really listen when I get warnings no joke there.....
Sorry, but I'm not sure we'll change wording...

The pm Zoesmom sent is pretty typical.
Identifies the issue, give rules and consequences if the member continues to break rules, and says what we need the member to do instead. It was straightforward but not overly harsh or rude.

Infractions are how we track repeat violations. That particular word won't be changed as that is what it is. It's built into the system even, and we cannot change terms to make it sound nicer.

Also warnings are normally for new members who are unaware of rules and members who are not normally much of an issue. Being a long time member doesn't mean one can forget rules or break them by mistake. We still need to address the issue, and do so formally via a warning. But receiving a warning rather than infraction actually often means we are being more lax with the individual normally for the reasons I mentioned.

crazy said:
Would be nice if it wasn't always zoesmom Doing them though but a different mod at times its how I've come to only associate zoesmom with trouble and be wary of her.
We moderate as a team. It's not just Zoesmom sending out warnings and giving infractions. We all do our share. However we do not keep track of who sent a warning to a member the last time in the past. So it is possible Zoesmom has talked to you more than the rest of us. Again, it's not personal. Warnings and infractions are typically discussed by all of us and normally given by the person who is free at the moment to take care of it.

crazy said:
For most part it mostly is kept between us i do however talk to a friend bout it on Facebook who has amazing insight and wisdom and a friend I truly can trust. At time getting a second opinion and view on it is very helpful from. Friend.

As for zoesmom and Doppler thread she Really got far too angry and attacked miniature horse never mind what she said to kwenami that it was called for I don't agree there and angry at how she was with them. It was most upsetting.

I realise mods can agree to disagree but I know other were seriously taken back by how she came across. I don't think it's a pernament leave right now maybe few month or so. Just can't cope with everything right now.
I think zoesmom was genuinely concerned about Doppler.

There are members here whose opinions fall on both sides, both supporting and opposed to Doppler being pts. It's not just me and Zoesmom who feel he should not be euthanized yet, if at all. Threads like that always result in people getting emotional and having hurt feelings. Kwenami clearly knew that when she posted as she put ''trigger warning'' in the title. Unfortunately it's just how it goes with hot button topics, especially on the internet.
 

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Sorry, but I'm not sure we'll change wording...

The pm Zoesmom sent is pretty typical.
Identifies the issue, give rules and consequences if the member continues to break rules, and says what we need the member to do instead. It was straightforward but not overly harsh or rude.

Infractions are how we track repeat violations. That particular word won't be changed as that is what it is. It's built into the system even, and we cannot change terms to make it sound nicer.

Also warnings are normally for new members who are unaware of rules and members who are not normally much of an issue. Being a long time member doesn't mean one can forget rules or break them by mistake. We still need to address the issue, and do so formally via a warning. But receiving a warning rather than infraction actually often means we are being more lax with the individual normally for the reasons I mentioned.


We moderate as a team. It's not just Zoesmom sending out warnings and giving infractions. We all do our share. However we do not keep track of who sent a warning to a member the last time in the past. So it is possible Zoesmom has talked to you more than the rest of us. Again, it's not personal. Warnings and infractions are typically discussed by all of us and normally given by the person who is free at the moment to take care of it.


I think zoesmom was genuinely concerned about Doppler.

There are members here whose opinions fall on both sides, both supporting and opposed to Doppler being pts. It's not just me and Zoesmom who feel he should not be euthanized yet, if at all. Threads like that always result in people getting emotional and having hurt feelings. Kwenami clearly knew that when she posted as she put ''trigger warning'' in the title. Unfortunately it's just how it goes with hot button topics, especially on the internet.
Hi thanks for gettign back to me appreciate it. good to sort things out before i come back in the future(if i choose to)

okay from your reply i have learnt quite a few things which are

1 even though i thought the wording was overly harsh/rude from her in the past (not that one but previous ones) ive learnt its typical and its not overly harsh

2 the word infraction was built into the system adn cant be changed i never knew that.

3 i thought warnings were for all members not just new ones and i didnt know or realise that recieving a warning rather then infraction is being pretty lax i had no idea about that! i took it as warning with a threat to ban me.

it is most the time zoesmom sending them to me no one else infact i can hardly recall the last time it was a different mod who sent me a warning other then zoesmom therefore ive built a not good association with her over the warnings and really took them personally it seems? i am very sorry about this zoesmom

im glad warnings are talked about with all the mods and its not just that mod giving the warning choice to warn someone that greatly pleases me :)


Yes there is members who are mostly supportive but the odd ones that dont agree he wouldnt do well in a shelter and shelters mostly if cannot rehome a dog like doppler only end up putting them to sleep anyway right? knewmai only wants the best for him and knows how he would do in a shelter and thats badly and with no one to rehome him to and no fosters to take him on and no funds i suppose she feels she hasnt much choice especially as running out of time to get a job because he requires so much time and effort and attention from her. So i feel for her and understand the situation and wish things could be different for the dog and herself.

@ZoesMom its jsut come to my attention why that thread affected you so much im talking to donna (tiggerbounce) we chat now and then and i didnt even know that phoenix was considered unadoptable,and could of been pts as was basically almost feral? i am so sorry i had no idea about that and i can totally see where you were coming from now and why it affected you so much. if i had known i wouldnt of been angry so my deepest apologies.

We all get to breaking points and she is at that point.

I am also very sorry for my anger and how i felt. Discussing it like this really helps me understand and make sense of things and i greatly appreciate it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i also appreciate it was a sensitive and upsetting topic for everyone.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sorry i meant @ZoesMom re pheonix shows how terrible memory is right now i am so so sorry! deeply embarrsed
 
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Yep, Phoenix is one of Zoesmom's girls. :)
She has done an amazing job with Phoenix and has personally worked though some of the issues Doppler is facing.

I also have experience with some of the issues. With my personal dogs, with my students and their dogs, with shelter dogs. Also workshops, seminars, and other continuing education on these topics. I'm no stranger to high prey drive dogs, reactivity, counter conditioning husbandry behaviors, or resource guarding...

I think there are more people opposed to Doppler being pts than you are aware of...

Honestly I think the split is due to some members being friends with Kwenami outside the forum and others not. You and her other firends all feel for her and I get that. Those who are not friends are... I think, looking a little more ''big picture.''

Since you seem to want to talk about it, I'm going to be straight forward and explain the basics as to why I am opposed.

-the BF lived with Doppler for 4 years. Kwenami already had a dog with issues and a bunny. Should not have been a surprise he came with issues, and probably was not the best decision to take him on in the first place.

-Kwenami got him from her friend or bf's ex (I've heard it both ways). Technically, that would mean she took on ownership. He was not a foster dog (foster dogs belong to shelters/rescues). As his owner she was responsible (still is) to get him the training and vet care (anxiety meds) he needs.

-If she did sign him over to a rescue when she decided she didn't want to keep him, he belongs to the rescue and she likely no longer legally can make that decision.

-I understand sometimes people need to quit jobs. But if they do, they need to look for another. If one has time to post on Facebook and internet forums, take classes, and other activities, then they do have the time to look for a job. If unable to work at all then they need to pursue benefits and likely make lifestyle changes to live within their means.

-She got this dog when she was still working iirc, and could have gotten him to a pro trainer and to a vet for med consult then. Could have made a world of a difference. If I am wrong and she had already quit, then, that goes back to my first point.

-Suggestions that will likely help with training and management are far too quickly being dismissed.

Ultimately, seems that multiple bad decisions were made leading up to this point. I just don't feel it's fair to Doppler that he has to pay with his life. Not when there were, and still are options to help him. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@kmes yes I am wanting to talk about it, however do you mind if I get back to you later on in few hours please? Asking because dogs need walking and mum told dad we should fly back sooner as she worried about gran so better pack clothes and need to contact people in case we do fly back ASAP.

So not ignoring you at all and will reply to you when I can
 

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I'll go ahead and throw my piece in here as well. I ultimately agree with all the points @kmes brought up.

In all honesty, I don't think that Kwenami is qualified to be making the decision to euthanize a dog based on behavior. She's not that experienced of a dog trainer or handler. She has her experience from Koda, but that's it. Koda was still an adolescent when she got her, came from a home where she received zero socialization or training, and is a mix of some challenging breeds. It's not surprising that she struggled, especially being a novice dog owner. The behavior problems she had with Koda were honestly not that bad, not surprising coming from her background, and Koda has ultimately been very forgiving of her errors. She came very close to rehoming that dog more than once because she was overwhelmed by her.

Since she struggled to handle Koda, she's really in no place to be working with a dog like Doppler with no guidance from a professional behaviorist. She absolutely should not be making the decision to euthanize on her own. Doppler's issues are far worse than Koda's ever were, so just because Kwenami has not been able to help him doesn't mean nobody can. I think euthanizing him would be incredibly unfair to him. He needs to go to a rescue or shelter that has an experienced trainer who can evaluate him properly. Somebody like @kmes who has seen a lot of dogs and a lot of issues.

I don't mean to say that Kwenami is a bad dog owner or doesn't care. That's far from the case. It's obvious when we consider that she did stick with Koda. She made sacrifices and spent a lot of time researching and learning, and ultimately a lot of that has payed off. But I still think that the decision to euthanize Doppler is not one that she should be making without extensive evaluation from professionals, and trying out new management/training and even medication.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yep, Phoenix is one of Zoesmom's girls. :)
She has done an amazing job with Phoenix and has personally worked though some of the issues Doppler is facing.

I also have experience with some of the issues. With my personal dogs, with my students and their dogs, with shelter dogs. Also workshops, seminars, and other continuing education on these topics. I'm no stranger to high prey drive dogs, reactivity, counter conditioning husbandry behaviors, or resource guarding...

I think there are more people opposed to Doppler being pts than you are aware of...

Honestly I think the split is due to some members being friends with Kwenami outside the forum and others not. You and her other firends all feel for her and I get that. Those who are not friends are... I think, looking a little more ''big picture.''

Since you seem to want to talk about it, I'm going to be straight forward and explain the basics as to why I am opposed.

-the BF lived with Doppler for 4 years. Kwenami already had a dog with issues and a bunny. Should not have been a surprise he came with issues, and probably was not the best decision to take him on in the first place.

-Kwenami got him from her friend or bf's ex (I've heard it both ways). Technically, that would mean she took on ownership. He was not a foster dog (foster dogs belong to shelters/rescues). As his owner she was responsible (still is) to get him the training and vet care (anxiety meds) he needs.

-If she did sign him over to a rescue when she decided she didn't want to keep him, he belongs to the rescue and she likely no longer legally can make that decision.

-I understand sometimes people need to quit jobs. But if they do, they need to look for another. If one has time to post on Facebook and internet forums, take classes, and other activities, then they do have the time to look for a job. If unable to work at all then they need to pursue benefits and likely make lifestyle changes to live within their means.

-She got this dog when she was still working iirc, and could have gotten him to a pro trainer and to a vet for med consult then. Could have made a world of a difference. If I am wrong and she had already quit, then, that goes back to my first point.

-Suggestions that will likely help with training and management are far too quickly being dismissed.

Ultimately, seems that multiple bad decisions were made leading up to this point. I just don't feel it's fair to Doppler that he has to pay with his life. Not when there were, and still are options to help him. :(
i admit i dont know alot about zoesmoms dogs but if zoesmom has got phoenix to be a fantastic dog then thats fantastic! i didnt realise at the time she went through what kwenami is going through currently with doppler.

yes i remember kmes that you have alot of experience there since your a proffesional dog trainer and assess dogs for canine good citizen if i remember right?

I wasnt aware the BF she is with had him for 4 years so why has he offloaded doppler onto her? thats not very fair and if he can afford to pay for her bills he can afford to get doppler professional help i would of thought. I agree it wasnt the best decision to take on doppler i myself wouldnt take on a dog with lots of issues with my having found Jessie a challenge at times and because it wouldnt be fair to the dog with what disabilities i have.

I can now see where you are coming from and your not wrong either if time for facebook, forums time to look for a job but i do know she found a temp one so she really is trying to find a job.

Also she did admit to me that she buried her head in the sand too long and should of got him help sooner whilst still employed. i think she thought she could do it herself. She also admitted she should of looked into shelters when and before moved incase couldnt care for him anymore.

i suppose she could of told the vet of his problems when went for the diareha but then again who knows why she didnt.

I try not to judge people on thier decisions. we know how hard that can be.

i agree would of been more fair to doppler had she got him help whilst still employed though. sadly life isnt always fair to any species we all make mistakes and as long as we learn from them thats what matters.

you all know i wondered if i should give up Jessie when she was 10 months old but you all got me through the rough challenging times with her for which im so ever grateful also members had faith in me told me i could do it and she would turn into a fantastic dog and she has and we have come out stronger for it with even more love then ever because of those times.

No i wasnt aware of more being opposed to it as what i saw seemed to be more supportive?

got to admit this really helps me understand things and where each of you is coming from thank you :)
 

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I'll go ahead and throw my piece in here as well. I ultimately agree with all the points @kmes brought up.

In all honesty, I don't think that Kwenami is qualified to be making the decision to euthanize a dog based on behavior. She's not that experienced of a dog trainer or handler. She has her experience from Koda, but that's it. Koda was still an adolescent when she got her, came from a home where she received zero socialization or training, and is a mix of some challenging breeds. It's not surprising that she struggled, especially being a novice dog owner. The behavior problems she had with Koda were honestly not that bad, not surprising coming from her background, and Koda has ultimately been very forgiving of her errors. She came very close to rehoming that dog more than once because she was overwhelmed by her.

Since she struggled to handle Koda, she's really in no place to be working with a dog like Doppler with no guidance from a professional behaviorist. She absolutely should not be making the decision to euthanize on her own. Doppler's issues are far worse than Koda's ever were, so just because Kwenami has not been able to help him doesn't mean nobody can. I think euthanizing him would be incredibly unfair to him. He needs to go to a rescue or shelter that has an experienced trainer who can evaluate him properly. Somebody like @kmes who has seen a lot of dogs and a lot of issues.

I don't mean to say that Kwenami is a bad dog owner or doesn't care. That's far from the case. It's obvious when we consider that she did stick with Koda. She made sacrifices and spent a lot of time researching and learning, and ultimately a lot of that has payed off. But I still think that the decision to euthanize Doppler is not one that she should be making without extensive evaluation from professionals, and trying out new management/training and even medication.
Your right she has just started a course to be a dog behavoirist/dog trainer and she only has her experience with koda and probably thought if she could help koda could help doppler.

though i can see how she got that overwhelmed i would too if Jessie had more problems then i could deal with but then again my family would get Jessie professional help and i was lucky i had such a fantastic trainer as well as this forum to help Jessie and i get through so much. The trainer helped me get Jessie back when escaping he taught me alot for a hour after class one night after she and i were doing recall and she took off around the field as it was off leash recall. now i can get humilated overwhelemd but laugh at the same time about it. Like last tuesday teaching retrieve she took off after a black lab so fast i couldnt step on her lead to stop her or catch her but i just laughed instead and got her back. Blimming terriers aye?

No she isnt a bad owner or doesnt care because she does and you said that :)

i think she will learn alot from this experience whatever she chooses to do with doppler. Im hoping if the last owner wasnt abusive and has the money they can take him back and get that help he needs.


i want to thank you all for taking the time to discuss it with me and help me understand everything greatly appreciated. I will come back one day just not anytime soon(apart to private message 2 members) too much going on.

Now i know probably going back even sooner then thought and hoped i have to go to benefits people urgently, get gp to do letters urgently, contact venture pet asap, ship my medical notes, Jessies toys beds grooming tools etc over to uk, get meds blister packed for how many weeks needed which will cost heaps but i know dad will help pay for that. at least she had the rabies done and her annual 2-3 yearly vaccines nearly 4 weeks ago phew! Also to make sure nothing i need gets packed and hand over avon customers.

Of course i am hoping not to go back just yet and for a few weeks time but never know hopefully gran gets better fast and stays well. my mum going in a few hours or so time to make sure they truly get down to buisness at the hospital adn sort this once and for all.

I am very sorry all of you about how i reacted , how angry i was and for not understanding or seeing where you were all coming from.

also hope we can forgive one another , that my apologies(sincere ones at that) can be accepted and we can move on?
@TiggerBounce much as i love to one day get a shelter dog well all the above conversations are why i wont and why i only get a dog from puppyhood so i can raise it and know its history and be fair to the dog and get help when i need it like with Jessie and charlie. Charlie was no angel he was a bugger for pulling us over on walks or on our backsides and we had to desensitise him in a few areas and he turned out fantastic. However Jessie i could never live without same for charlie but i have to live without him soon enough and at least i have Jessie who is my biggest support 24.7.

When all this happened my dogs seemed so upset i wondered why then i told them what happened charlie came right up to me cuddling and kissing me then Jess jumped up licked my face to death then lay across my tummy :)

Dogs are very special animals for sure
 
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