[Redbone]

I didn't mean to fire up an argument, but there is so much misinformation out there. A prong collar keeps a dog from chocking himself on a flat collar or a choke collar when he pulls on the leash. The prongs should be rounded and do not hurt the dog. The pressure is similar to a mother dog nipping the puppy's neck skin. Surely you would prefer a small amount of brief pressure instead a collapsed trachea. Who cares if the dog doesn't like it for a few moments. Children don't like medicine but it saves lives. Just like medicine, you don't give medicine when your child is well, and you don't use the prong collar after the dog stops pulling the leash.

 

[Redbone]

Anyways.. I don't plan on jumping my dog if I think he's getting aggressive. I've got them separated right now. I'm looking for ways to warm him up to my kids. I have a feeling he has had bad experiences with kids. I watched his reaction this morning when they came downstairs for breakfast. The dog was fine until my 2 year old squealed a high pitched "GOOOOOD MORNING!!!!" I could tell that bothered him. If it's a matter of not liking kids in general, isn't it just a matter of slow and steady trust building?

 

[Grabby]

I understand very well how prong collars work. I used to use them when I trained dogs, which I did for many years. I learned better training methods. Teach a dog to walk on a leash without pulling and you don't need a prong collar. A harness works too if someone doesn't know how to teach a dog not to pull. Front clip harnesses are best. It still comes down to training. The brain is the best training tool and we all have one.

 

[Grabby]

Anyways.. I don't plan on jumping my dog if I think he's getting aggressive. I've got them separated right now. I'm looking for ways to warm him up to my kids. I have a feeling he has had bad experiences with kids. I watched his reaction this morning when they came downstairs for breakfast. The dog was fine until my 2 year old squealed a high pitched "GOOOOOD MORNING!!!!" I could tell that bothered him. If it's a matter of not liking kids in general, isn't it just a matter of slow and steady trust building?

Why not be proactive? Why wait for "slow and steady trust building" when you can greatly decrease the time it takes with CC/DS. Counter condition and desensitize. I've provided links previously that explain the method or you can google and find a lot of info and how to videos.

Behavior modification works if done properly.

 

[SusanLynn]

Good morning

I can see that this thread is starting to become a debate on prong collars. Redbone, I might just want to point out that you have found a site that emphasizes "positive reinforcement" techniques, and you're not going to find much support here for prong collars. Maybe, rather than continue with yet another "prong collar" debate (there are plenty of threads already on the subject which you can read), let's return the conversation back to your new dog and your children.

I'd like to suggest that you watch this video on children and dogs:

https://www.facebook.com/paw.man.3/videos/10206890328325669/

I think it's really important that you pay very, very close attention to your dog's body language. Here's a thread with resources that can help you better understand his signals of discomfort:

http://www.dogforum.com/training-behavior-stickies/calming-signals-10084/

Because of the potential risk of a dog bite, I really hope that you consult with a canine behaviorist. You need another pair of eyes in your home to see if there is any hope of making this situation work.

 

[DobisHoundis]

I have a 2 year old male redbone who is very mouthy. It's hard to tell from your descriptions if it's just over excited mouthyness or actually aggression. It also sounds like he may resource guard so I would make sure he is put away when the kids are eating and do not let them near him when he is eating.

If you want to keep him I would recommend seeking out a behaviorist and they can determine whether or not they think he just needs more training or if he's actually a risk to your children.

 

[Redbone]

Alrighty... didn't know prong collars are such a hot button issue! I'll mind my own then.

I'll look at some of those links. Thank you! I'm not sure when I'll be able to afford a professional but I'm hoping to get some outside advice either way. I've been recording video clips of him reacting to the kids. I'd hate to get rid of this sweet dog. I get up at 6 and make my husband's lunch and coffee, and hang out with the dog until about 8 when the rest of the house wakes up. He listens to me and is wonderful when we go for our jogs, It's just... the kids

 

[Rain]

Anyways.. I don't plan on jumping my dog if I think he's getting aggressive. I've got them separated right now. I'm looking for ways to warm him up to my kids. I have a feeling he has had bad experiences with kids. I watched his reaction this morning when they came downstairs for breakfast. The dog was fine until my 2 year old squealed a high pitched "GOOOOOD MORNING!!!!" I could tell that bothered him. If it's a matter of not liking kids in general, isn't it just a matter of slow and steady trust building?

I provided as much info, on getting the dog comfortable with the children, as I'm comfortable giving considering the dog nips. You really need to check out the link I provided on finding a trainer or behaviorist.

If I gave more advice and I came back to this thread to find you had posted that the dog snapped at your child and got his / her skin I'd be devastated and heartbroken. I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can give advice on a fearful dog that's living with 3 children and not have it have the potential to be wrong and put those children at risk. You need a professional, and one that uses positive reinforcement techniques, to work with you, your children, and the dog. If you do hire someone and he starts harping on how you simply need to be alpha and show the dog you are in charge, then run from that individual, the potential for fall out is just to high.

 

[Dia]

A prong collar keeps a dog from chocking himself on a flat collar or a choke collar when he pulls on the leash. The prongs should be rounded and do not hurt the dog. The pressure is similar to a mother dog nipping the puppy's neck skin.

I've been nipped by a dog, and I've used a prong collar on my dog and on myself. The two things are not remotely similar.
1. A dog's teeth are sharp; as you mentioned, prongs are rounded
2. A mother dog would not put her entire mouth around her pup's throat, in order to apply pressure evenly, as a prong collar does.
3. A nip is quick, in and out; a prong collar is constant pressure; even when it's not being tightened, the dog knows it is there. Depending on his experience with it, it may be irrelevant or a constant "threat".
4. Dogs can very precisely control how hard they bite; they may graze the skin and leave no mark, leave bruising, a small puncture wound, a tear or worse. Prong collars are much less discriminatory, and the "correction" can vary drastically depending on the participants and context.
5. Finally, and perhaps most important: humans are not dogs, and dogs know this. Using techniques and tools that attempt to mimic dog-to-dog behavior is at best, going to fall very short of the mark and at worst, be confusing for the dog.

Surely you would prefer a small amount of brief pressure instead a collapsed trachea.

I agree that flat collars, or any collar, can hurt a dog who is inclined to lunge against it. In my opinion, the answer is training - not using tools that scare/hurt the dog. In my particular case, my dog was worse off with a prong in terms of physical injury, than he was with the martingale I used simply because the prongs frightened and hurt him, making his reaction much worse. In any case, if one has a lunging dog, prongs aren't the only solution - harnesses are a safer alternative, and that is what I switched to.

Who cares if the dog doesn't like it for a few moments. Children don't like medicine but it saves lives.

Unike children, dogs do not understand why they are being hurt/made uncomfortable. They are similar to young kids in many ways, but they certainly lack the cognitive ability even a two-year old has. You can feed a two-year-old terrible medicine for two weeks straight, and love him/her up for the rest of the time, and the kid is not going to learn to be afraid of you. Conversely, you can slap a dog around once a day for two weeks straight, and even if you do love him up for the rest of the time, that dog is going to be confused and may exhibit fear/anxiety/appeasement around you. The dog is not going to understand that you only slap him once a day at 5 pm "for his own good"; he's only going to know that sometimes you hurt him.

There are certainly times when we may have to hurt/scare a dog in order to prevent injury or save its life: jerking it back onto the sidewalk if it happens to lunge at traffic, for instance. We also are subject to human failings, so we may yank a leash in frustration or anger. But using those kinds of methods as regular training techniques are completely unnecessary. There are kinder, gentler ways to train dogs that are ultimately more effective. The only downside to them is that they take longer, and people tend to want instant fixes.

 

[Dia]

Good morning

I can see that this thread is starting to become a debate on prong collars. Redbone, I might just want to point out that you have found a site that emphasizes "positive reinforcement" techniques, and you're not going to find much support here for prong collars. Maybe, rather than continue with yet another "prong collar" debate (there are plenty of threads already on the subject which you can read), let's return the conversation back to your new dog and your children.

Oops, sorry .. I posted, then left for a bit, and saw this on my return. Please delete my post as I've missed my edit window. Thanks.

 

[SusanLynn]

Oops, sorry .. I posted, then left for a bit, and saw this on my return. Please delete my post as I've missed my edit window. Thanks.

Dia, I would never suggest that you delete your post. It clearly explains why many members here feel strongly about prong collars. My only concern this morning, and it's just my concern, is that the focus stay on the interaction between Redbone's new dog and her small children. Clearly, her dog is very stressed by the presence of her children and their typical youthful behavior. And, like Rain, I really hope that she has a professional come out to her home to observe that interaction firsthand.

 

[SusanLynn]

Redbone, I thought I might share this thread with you. It's quite a long thread, but filled with suggestions in dealing with a dog similar to yours.

http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training-behavior/dog-nipped-toddler-twice-188306/

In the end, Anele decided to return the dog to its previous owner as she understandably didn't want a dog that just tolerated her four children, but who loved being with them.

 

[Redwood]

It seems to me in my uneducated opinion that this dog is hideously undertrained - not your fault, it's just how you got him.

Which means he is not safe around very small children. I would advise against keeping this dog simply because he is large and untrained and doesn't understand boundaries and restraint, and you have VERY small children who CAN'T understand what's bad to do around a dog. It is a thing that small humans do not act, sound or move like an adult human and not every dog can get used to the difference.

I would suggestion this to anyone with an untrained large dog and very young kids. Too much can go wrong too fast, and in truth it is never worth the risk.

It's my suggestion that you rehome him, or get professional help and make absolutely sure your kids have no access to the dog at all until then.