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Discussion Starter #1
My six yr old Male Bishion has a problem with bladder stones (calcium oxylate) he has had 3 surgeries 4 different diets now he is on Royal canin SO it is garbage and he will not eat it. no treats said the vet. I get conflicting treatment from every vet. Realy at a loss. any suggestions?:(
 

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Have you seen the same vet this whole time and just asked others opinions? Has he been on a special diet MADE for bladder stones?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The vet can not pinpoint the problem This is the second Vet but she has consulted other vets. It been hit or miss with his diet Know can really give a definate why this keeps happening and how to control it. And the food they recommended this time it expensive and poor quality Meat and chicken by product how can that be good for him
 

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The vet can not pinpoint the problem This is the second Vet but she has consulted other vets. It been hit or miss with his diet Know can really give a definate why this keeps happening and how to control it. And the food they recommended this time it expensive and poor quality Meat and chicken by product how can that be good for him
K but there are actual foods MADE FOR BLADDER STONES, so my question to you is has either vet given you these specific foods before? Typically they are science diet formulas. and Crio is right, its not just food...

Have you tried to find specialists? or have your vets tried to refer you to one?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Try several different RX Diets

He has been on Purina KD for about six months got stones agian now they recommend he eat royal canin SO She also consulted a vet from the university of pennsylvania. They all seem puzzled as to why it was not even 6 months since his last surgery and he was full of stones agian. One problem he has is he doen not drink enough. To keep his urine dilute.
 

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well you just said another..if he is not drinking enough water and its only adding to the problem, maybe this is THE PROBLEM. Also nutrient and digestive issues can probably cause bladder stones. I suggest you consult a specialist.
 

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what are other reasons they get these stones?
som' dogs are genetically predisposed...there are also other things to that excape me at the moment..lol

as for drinking MORE water...

ever seen these?

http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-3760197t400.jpg

dogs like MOVING water...they will drink more if it moves...

also feeding ONLY canned food will help keep him hydrated...kibble is very hard for them to digest without drinking a ton. They have linked UTIs and Stones in cats to a diet of only dry food. Makes sence for dogs too :)

:) :)



Dog | Forum | Rocks!
 

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som' dogs are genetically predisposed...there are other things to that excape me at the moment..

as for drinking MORE water...

ever seen these?

http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-3760197t400.jpg

dogs like MOVING water...they will drink more...

also feeding ONLY canned food will help keep him hydrated...kibble is very hard for them to digest without drinking a ton. They have linked UTIs and Stones in cats to a diet of only dry food. :)

:) :)
Sorry was typing with one hand, had to make everything as short and to the point as possible! Now that I have two hands (LOL) I think Crio just brought up a good point! Canned food is full of water.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
he is eating canned food and dry both Now I am trying teaspoon of broth in his water but i like the moving water idea. They also want him to drink distilled water in case its the water in my area. To answer the question about blood work yes he has had alot of blood work they just tested his for hyperparatyriodism. thankfully it can back negative.
 

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if he is not getting thoroughly hydrated, he is not peeing as much as he should and that can maybe contribute to his issues. When we got cats who had urinary diseases we used to give them weekly subcutaneous fluid treatments (fluid- lactated ringers injected through a line under his skin) or the owners would do them at home. it helps to give them the extra water to dilute his urine and keep things hydrated and flowing/ working properly. It flushes out their system and kidneys/etc. Has your dog been on Hills s/d? usually if it is quite a severe case of stones they put them on s/d for a month then onto a different diet after and s/d is supposed to help dissolve the stones really well, that's why they can only be on it for a month at a time, cus they don't want it to mess up their system from being on it too long. we had one dog who had such severe case of stones that he was peeing blood he was on s/d for a month and then got on Hills u/d (another diet for that, that is ok to be used for maintenance) i also think he had gone to a specialist and the specialist after his treatment (if I remember correctly he had surgery, but i cant really remember the details of his visit to the specialist) recommended the u/d for maintenance.

I know the vet diets don't have the BEST products in them, but maybe you can stick with them and find one hat actually works. obviously the k/d and SO are not working.

Looks like your little bichon is having a rough time :( Hope everything somehow ends up working out.

Also mix water WITH his canned food make it kinda soggy to give him that extra bit of water. Plus dogs usually love to eating really mushy things in my experience. ;P

~MSE
 

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^^^ thats actually a good one pawz, they might have different solutions that might work differently with the dog's system :)

~MSE
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I tried to find a holistic vet in my area I am not having much luck. Going to keep looking I have a call in to vet to talk a doggy nutritionist. I ll make his food I really appreciate all your replies there were some really helpful ideas. Thank you I just can't see him having another surgery. How much can his little tiny body take.
 

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Welcome! Sorry its' trouble that brings you here :(

I love the moving water idea.

Does your vet think he's dehydrating? I wonder if your vet would show you how to do Sub-q fluids at home. It's something a lot of geriatric pet owners do quite regularly and it's quite easy to do.
Basically you put a little needle in tented skin along the back/neck area, and inject sterile water, it's absorbed over the next few hours. It cannot be thrown up or excreted quickly and really helps to quickly hydrate. It certainly can be given in the long term.
There is definitley a linkabe between stones and hydration, so that may be something to ask about.

I'm going to see what I can find in the online vet journals....Could you PM me your email address I can't post them publically-access is restricted, but I am within copyright to make a copy :) :) Hopefully I find something that could help you!
 

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Ok I found a great article. You could give your vet the abstract and citation and she could likely look it up easy enough. It found that Etidronate disodium was really effective in the treatment of the stones.

Here's the info:

Effects of Etidronate Disodium on Crystallizations in Synthetic Urine and Calcium
Oxalate Crystal Adhesion to Madin-Darby Canine Kidney (MDCK) Cells​
Shoichi Ebisuno,'" Yasuo Kohjimoto,' Toru Nishikawq2​
Masaya Nishihata,L Takeshi Inagaki,'
Takahiro K ~ m u r aa,n~d Tadashi Ohkawal

'Division​
of Urology, Minami Wakayama National Hospital, Wakayama, Japan, 'Department of Urology,

Wakayama Medical College, Wakayama, Japan, and 'Division
of Urology, Kinan Sogo Hospital, Wakayama, Japan

Effects of Etidronate Disodium on Crystallizations in Synthetic Urine and Calcium Oxalate Crystal Adhesion to Madin-Darby Canine Kidney (MDCK) Cells
International Journal of Urology
Volume 5, Issue 6, Date: November 1998, Pages: 582-587
Shoichi Ebisuno, Yasuo Kohjimoto, Toru Nishikawa, Masaya Nishihata, Takeshi Inagaki, Takahiro Komura, Tadashi Ohkawa


Abstract:
Background:​
Several reports in the 1970s suggested that etidronate disodiurn might be clinically useful to
prevent calcium stones, but the use of etidronate in the urolithiasis field was discontinued due to adverse
effects of this drug on skeletal turnover and mineralization. Because the drug might affect not only
crystallization, but
also crystal-tubular interactions, we investigated the minimum dose of etidronate
necessary to effectively prevent stone recurrence without adverse side effects.

Methods:​
We examined the effect of etidronate on the crystallization of calcium oxalate, calcium
phosphate and magnesium ammonium phosphate using synthetic urine and measured by an aggregometer.
Wealsostudied itseffect on theadhesion ofcalciumoxalate monohydratecrystals toMadin-Darbycanine
kidney
(MDCK) cells in vitro.

Results:​
Etidronateaffected thecrystallization of notonlycalcium phosphateand calcium oxalate, butalso
magnesium ammonium phosphate in synthetic urine. The inhibitory activities on these crystallizations
were detected at extremely low drug concentrations. Etidronate also had a strong inhibitory activity against
the adhesion of calcium oxalate crystals to MDCti cells.

Conclusion:​
Although further studies are necessary regarding the effects of etidronate on crystallization
and crystal adhesion both in vivo and in vitro, and the appropriate schedule of dosing to prevent side

effects, it is possible that etidronate may be useful in the treatment
of urinary stones
 

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A quick google of this leads to some facts that won't really help but basically it is a genetic thing and likely to reoccur.

Oxalate Bladder Stones (Canine) - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

My take is it is a predisposition of bichons (and shih tzu and lhasas and mini schnauzers and others) Likely your vet can't give you much help because it just happens and diet doesn't seem to affect it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thankyou for the information (Mikey) I appreciate you looking that up. I will show it to my vet. I really appreciate all the suggestions and the concern from all who reply to my question. it I feel like there is hope for him. He is such a sweet little guy I hate to see him suffer. I was talking to the vet yesterday going to try home made diet. And he really has recovered from the surgery much better than last. But I don't want him to have to go though it agian. Thank you all again. I am glad I found this web site.
 
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