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My dog Tash suddenly went blind and deaf four weeks ago. He's 18 years old, a poodle mutt, in good health. He's had cataracts for many years, but was able to move everywhere, run and play with my other dog, and never bump into things. A month ago I left him inside the car for two hours, when I went back to the car and took him for a walk he appeared disoriented, began bumping into things and wouldn't respond when called. He's been like this ever since. His sense of smell doesn´t appear to be working well either. Tash often bumps into my legs. I would think even if he´s blind he would recognize me by smell. He walks all the time and doesn't stop wondering around. I took Tash to the vet, they took an x-ray and found a broken spinal disk on his neck. The vet said the disk had been broken for many years, and that maybe when my daughter's dog attacked my dog a week earlier could have bitten him in the neck and trigger the blindness and deafness a week later. Is that possible? My vet recommended acupuncture but says probably he won´t recover sight or hearing. Then last week Tash began to lose weight, sleep all the time, be very hungry but eat little, vomit often and to urinate and drink a lot. Yesterday he was diagnosed with diabetes and is hospitalized right now. Could these two problems be related? For how long could he have had diabetes? Any suggestions?
 

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At age eighteen he most likely has multiple problems. I would have him assessed by a Vet that deals with senior dogs. You need a complete picture of his physical status, before you can make any decisions as to how to proceed.
 

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OK I will be the one to address the elephant in the room.
I think at age 18, hard questions have to be asked about quality of life. Blind is doable. Deaf and blind is not so good but doable. But no sense of smell either? And then diabetes and who knows what else. Maybe something neurological going on?
When my Poppy was approaching the end, my biggest worry was that she would die in a surgery away from me so I made the decision that if she took a sudden downturn I would not leave her as an in patient even if this might extend her life for a short while Of course in our case it was gradual, so I had time to think and plan .
There are various quality of life scales online which can help though ultimately it is down to your knowledge of a pet and your gut feeling. It's the toughest road I have ever had to walk. Best wishes,
 

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What Shadow my elderly, 17 year old, dog taught me is that yes you can treat symptoms, and yes you may be able to manage them, but it's highly likely the dog will not regain all the ground lost because they do not recover like a younger dog.

Shadow at the age of 15 years 11 months had a stroke that left him completely blind, being blind seemed to have taken his confidence even though before that he was nearly blind from cataracts. I think the stress of losing his sight triggered other ailments, and sped up the process of them, mainly canine cognitive dysfunction.

I'm wondering if getting attacked in his old age didn't stress your dog out enough to have a domino effect happen, and issues that were slowly brewing sped up.

My suggestion is to keep him comfortable, see if you can get the diabetes under control, but if you cannot get him eating again, and lessen his overall anxiety and stress, be prepared to let him go. Trust me on that last one. Shadow ate less and less during his last month with me, and I threw the book at the problem trying to get him to eat, I likely should have put him to sleep a week or two before he finally passed away because he basically just wasted away.

Good luck to you and your boy, I'm so sorry that y'all are going through that.
 
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I'm so sorry to hear this.

What was the ambient temperature when the dog spent 2 hours in the car?

I wonder if he didn't have a stroke, triggered by heat-stress. // Elderly dogs are much-more sensitive to both heat & cold than middle-aged adults, just a pups are; like pups, old dogs can't cool themselves as well, nor maintain their body heat / core temp if they get chilled.

Given his diabetes, his prognosis is not good - keeping his blood glucose stable will be a challenge, at his age. :( That he cannot seem to smell is another thing that makes me think stroke / neuro event, & THAT will depress his appetite, too - which will affect his blood glucose.
Dogs' sense of smell is a big driver of appetite, as it is in humans - what we think of as 'taste' is really taste / smell / temp /texture / moisture.

- terry

 

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Acupuncture / acupressure

First off, nothing was ever cured by acupuncture. Ever. Sticking pins in a person or dog accomplishes nothing.

...
I don't want to distract from the OP's concerns, but i've had clients whose dogs recovered significantly with acupuncture, or who had chronic pain that was relieved by acupuncture.
This was after conventional vet-care failed to help, & in several cases, the conventional vet suggested euthanasia.

I don't know if acupuncture is known to be particularly helpful in cases of blind / deaf dogs with sudden onset; OTOH, i don't see a reason to say absolutely not, don't even try.

For myself, i've used self-administered ACUPRESSURE [no needles] to relieve pain, open my clogged sinuses, etc; when i had tic Douloureux on the left side of my face, acupressure probly saved my job & thus my apartment, groceries, etc, as it relieved the ungodly pain for 20 to 30-mins at a time.
I could easily use the thumb target to shut-off the pain for significant time, with just a few seconds sustained pressure. // I was lucky; tic Douloureux can last for years, or a lifetime; mine began in early September, & ended the following May, leaving as mysteriously as it began.

- terry

 

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I had a dog who was diagnosed with diabetes....she was 8 years old. I looked into it, and decided, after what I read, that I wasn't going to try to control it, and I had her put to sleep.

One, it's trial and error, in trying to get the insulin working, plus special feeding, and keeping an exact feeding schedule... all through this, one's dog can be feeling quite ill. Once things are set, if anything changes in the dog like becoming resistant to the insulin, it will feel ill again, until the vet and owner make adjustments to the insulin.

And...I read that most dogs, don't live very long, while on insulin and many develop pancreatic cancer...like in about a year or two. *It's been a while since I read this stuff, so I'm going off of memory and might not be exactly accurate*... but... to me, I just felt it didn't justify keeping my dog alive when she was already feeling sick, and while you can explain to a person why they have to be stabbed with needles several times a day, you can't do that to a dog. And, again, if you don't get them a meal on time, or a shot on time, or their levels change, the dog pays for it.

I think it's a mercy to just admit, that "My pet had it's days under the sun, and now it's time to say goodbye." Holding on, in the name of love, can sometimes be a cruel thing to do... with pets, real love often means accepting pain, so your loved pet doesn't have too.

I've put 8 of my pets to sleep, fortunately most got to see old age, living to ages 14 to 21 years old. I lost two at fairly young ages, Harper, the dog I just mentioned here, she was only 8 years old.

And I lost my beloved golden retriever, HaHa, put him to sleep due to cancer, he was only 5 years old. All of their deaths broke my heart, but the two that didn't get to have a long life are are the ones that really hurt. Still, I would rather have that hurt than never have known them and had them in my life.

I'm sorry your dog isn't doing well.

Stormy
 

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i've had clients whose dogs recovered significantly with acupuncture, or who had chronic pain that was relieved by acupuncture.
This was after conventional vet-care failed to help, & in several cases, the conventional vet suggested euthanasia.

I don't know if acupuncture is known to be particularly helpful in cases of blind / deaf dogs with sudden onset; OTOH, i don't see a reason to say absolutely not, don't even try.
If I encountered anyone making such a claim, I would ask how the pain levels were measured, what blood tests were performed, what range of motion measurements were taken, etc.

Skeptvet is an excellent resource for this sort of thing. Here's a link to his page on acupuncture:
Acupuncture | The SkeptVet

Acupuncture is based on the placement of pins on a person or animals' body, in order for them to interact with "invisible lines of energy" that wrap around our bodies. There are no controlled studies that demonstrate any level of effectiveness, and no standard of treatment.
 

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randomized controlled studies, single or double-blind

If I encountered anyone making such a claim, I would ask how the pain levels were measured, what blood tests were performed, what range of motion measurements were taken, etc.

...

Acupuncture is based on the placement of pins on a person or animals' body, in order for them to interact with "invisible lines of energy" that wrap around our bodies.

There are no controlled studies that demonstrate any level of effectiveness, and no standard of treatment.
"no controlled studies"? - Au, contraire, mon ami! :D

Published in "Pain" journal, Volume 127, Iss 3, Feb. 2007, Pgs 214-220
Pain relief by applying transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) on acupuncture points during the first stage of labor: A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial

An-Shine Chao, Angel Chao, Tzu-Hao Wang, Yu- Cheng Chang, Hsiu-Huei Peng, Shuenn-Dyh Chang, Anne Chao, Chee-Jen Chang, Chyong-Huey Laia, Alice M. K. Wonge

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pain.2006.08.016

QUOTE,
"Visual analogue scale (VAS) was used to assess pain before and 30 and 60 min after treatment. The primary outcome was the rate of VAS score decrease ⩾3 in each group.
A questionnaire was given at 24-hr post-partum to evaluate the satisfaction of pain relieving method and the willingness to have the same treatment again.
Mode of delivery and neonatal effect were measured as secondary outcome.

100 women were eligible for analysis.
TENS group experienced VAS score reduction ⩾3 significantly more common vs the TENS placebo group (31/50 [62%] vs 7/50 [14%], P < 0.001).

Willingness of using the same analgesic method for a future childbirth was also significantly different (TENS: 48/50 [96%] vs TENS placebo: 33/50 [66%], P < 0.001).

Operative delivery was increased in the TENS group (12/50 [24%] vs 4/50 [8%], P = 0.05),
but the neonatal outcomes were not different.
[conclusion]
The application of TENS on specific acupuncture points could be a non-invasive adjunct for pain relief in the first stage of labor."

______________________________________________

Pain, Vol 2, Iss 2, June 1976; Pgs 141-148
Transcutaneous electrical stimulation & acupuncture: Comparison of treatment for low-back pain

Elisabeth J.Fox, Ronald Melzack

https://doi.org/10.1016/0304-3959(76)90109-3

"12 patients suffering chronic low-back pain were treated with both acupuncture & transcutaneous electrical stimulation.
...changes in the intensity & quality of pain were measured with the McGill Pain Questionnaire.
The results, based on a measure of overall pain intensity, show that pain relief greater than 33% was produced in 75% of the patients by acupuncture and in 66% by electrical stimulation. The mean duration of pain relief was 40-hrs after acupuncture and 23-hrs after electrical stimulation."


_______________________________________________


Brit. Soc. for Rheumatology
Rheumatology, Vol 33, Iss 12, 1 Dec 1994; Pgs 1162–1165.
THE ANALGESIC EFFECT OF ACUPUNCTURE IN CHRONIC TENNIS ELBOW PAIN
A. Molsberger, E. Hille

https://doi.org/10.1093/rheumatology/33.12.1162


"Abstract
The immediate analgesic effect of a single non-segmental acupuncture stimulation treatment on chronic tennis elbow pain was studied in a placebo–controlled single-blind trial completed by 48 patients.

Before and after treatment, all patients were examined physically by an unbiased independent examiner. Eleven-point box scales were used for pain measurement.

Patients in the verum group were treated at non-segmental distal points (homolateral leg) for elbow pain following Chinese acupuncture rules, whereas patients in the placebo group were treated with placebo acupuncture avoiding penetration of the skin with an acupuncture needle.
Overall reduction in the pain score was 55.8% (S = 2.95) in the verum group and 15% (S = 2.77) in the placebo group.

After one treatment, 19 out of 24 patients in the verum group (79.2%) reported pain relief of at least 50% (placebo group: six patients out of 24).

The average duration of analgesia after one treatment was 20.2 h in the verum group (S = 21.54) and 1.4 h (S = 3.50) in the placebo group.

The results are statistically significant (P <0.01); they show that non-segmental verum acupuncture has an intrinsic analgesic effect in the clinical treatment of tennis elbow pain which exceeds that of placebo acupuncture."


_______________________________________________

Ann R Coll Surg Engl. 1983 Jan; 65(1): 44–46.
PMCID: PMC2494194
Superficial acupuncture in the relief of chronic low back pain.
A. J. Macdonald, K. D. Macrae, B. R. Master, & A. P. Rubin

FULL TEXT at the link, scanned pages:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2494194/

Screen-shots appended below are from this trial, describing scoring & locating trigger points [painful muscles].
QUOTE,
Abstract
A single-blind, randomised, placebo-controlled trial of superficial acupuncture in the treatment of low back pain was carried out by comparing 8 patients treated by acupuncture with 9 patients treated by placebo.

In all 5 measures of efficacy chosen for study, the acupuncture group achieved better responses than the placebo group; 4 of the 5 inter-group differences were statistically significant.

In addition, an overall mean for all 5 measures combined showed significant superiority of acupuncture over placebo.


http://www.dogforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210906&stc=1&d=1504849067

http://www.dogforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=210914&stc=1&d=1504849067


 

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First off, transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS) is not acupuncture. You should know that.

Secondly, you didn't bother to mention that these "scientific" trials consisted of very small groups, with no mention given as the selection process, randomization process, or blinding of subjects and observers.

Here's a nice analysis and references for you:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/
 

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it's in there.

First off, transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS) is not acupuncture. You should know that.

Secondly, you didn't bother to mention that these "scientific" trials consisted of very small groups, with no mention given as the selection process, randomization process, or blinding of subjects and observers.
...
Pardon me -
Yes, i do indeed know the difference betw TENS & A-P, not merely theoretically but via very-distinct personal experience:
i injured my lower-back badly at work, & was forced by my employer's insurer to use a &$#%@! TENS machine that was excruciating, as "therapy" for 90-mins every day - at work, & on days-off at home. It did nothing to "help heal" or reduce pain, & was itself very painful.
So yeah - been there, done it, got the T-shirt. :confused: Sucked. :p

In at least ONE study, the researchers compared TENS to acupuncture,
OR in one study, they used acupuncture points & needles and electrical stimulation via the needle, into the AP-point.
We have rolled onto a new page - i cannot see the studies from here, i am working from memory, but i'll be happy to confirm my memory as soon as i can scroll back. :thumbsup:

And yes -
several of the studies were double-blind & they stipulated that; i think 2 were single-blind, but again, the study STIPULATES single-blind or double-blind. :)

I'm sorry that they didn't use hundreds of dogs - how many would U think are the minimum # that U'd find acceptable? :p Research is expensive, & every subject added to a trial adds more co$t.

They also state how they randomized experimental vs control, or prospective studies without a control-group. :) It's in there. If U insist, i'll copy / paste it, but i'd rather not spend the time.
I'm sure U can understand that. :eek:

cheers,
- terry

 

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here ya go!

BTW, only 1 of the studies is available in full-text; the other 3 are abstracts.

Study #1:
randomized / double-blind / placebo; compares AP to TENS.

study #2:
TENS vs AP, used on every subject;
subject rates degree of relief obtained, researchers test for duration.

#3:
placebo / SINGLE-blind

#4:
placebo / SINGLE-blind



 

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Single blind studies aren't appropriate for self-reported pain studies. Double blinding is required to control for observer bias.

And these studies didn't use dogs, they used people who self-reported pain levels. Hence the need for double blinding.

Seriously, if you can come up with an experiment that demonstrates that animals are surrounded by invisible energy fields, and then demonstrate that sticking pins in various locations on animals cures illnesses by somehow interacting with these energy fields, then we can talk about the efficacy of acupuncture. All these supposed studies do is say "We did something random, and some people said they feel better."

Read some of the links I provided, both in Skeptvet and in Science Based Medicine. They'll provide the rational for how a study should be conducted, and the weaknesses found in existing experiments performed by acupuncture practitioners.
 

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yes, dear.

Single blind studies aren't appropriate for self-reported pain studies. Double blinding is required to control for observer bias.

And these studies didn't use dogs, they used people who self-reported pain levels. Hence the need for double blinding.

...
I am afraid U'll have to complain to the researchers about the flaws in their study designs - i have no input there. :)

I notice that U ignored the double-blind study, & also the fact that in the dual-therapy study, the RESEARCHERS - not the subjects - determined the duration of relief from pain.
??

- t

 

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Did you bother to read any of the articles I provided?

I mean, think for a minute. You cited a flawed study, and then said I'll have to take it up with the researchers. Does that really make sense to you.

And I noticed that you don't have anything to say about the basic premise of acupuncture. Do you really believe that there are invisible energy fields that surround us, and that poking people and animals with needles causes those fields of energy to cure diseases? Because, if you don't believe that, you pretty much dismiss the whole idea that acupuncture could possibly work.
 

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... You cited a flawed study ...
I cited 4 studies, not one - if 1 is flawed, then 3 are not?
It seemed to me that U summarily dismissed all 4. :confused:

I am not going to discuss the theory of acupuncture; i simply stated that SOME OF MY CLIENTS have stated that THEIR DOGS had good results.
We have gone a long way since then; i don't see much point in pursuing it further. :)

- terry


 

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I REALIZE that SOME of YOUR clients CLAIM to HAVE had GOOD results.

So what? Some people claim that the earth is flat.

It's very telling that you are "not going to discuss the theory of acupuncture". The fact is, when you claim that a cure works, you have to be able to say how it works. We know how antibiotics, nerve blockers, NSAIDS, etc., work; based on actual observed, validated and replicated testing. If you want to claim that acupuncture is medically valid, you have to be able to point out the curative process.

You are correct that there is no point in discussing something with you when you refuse to answer direct questions or even look at references that are provided to you. I am not going to do basic research for you. I'm done.
 

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18 years is a very old age for a dog so it could just be natural. Leaving him in the car could have nothing to do with it. I have a 16 year old Weimaraner that is blind and deaf. It's all natural. I think most of it is age. I would just let it play out. I understand loving it but making the animal suffer is going to be hard on you and him. I would do whatever your vet recommends :)
 
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