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My dog seems afraid of me sometimes....

933 Views 21 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  AllensRottie, 
A
My dog and I get along great. She loves me and is always by my side. Sometimes though she backs off and doesn't want to interact with me. For instance, when I try to play with her with a rope toy or her wiggle giggle ball she goes and sits on the couch and turns her gaze away from me. Also when I try to train her with treats she is very hesitant. Almost as if she is expecting something bad to happen.

I have never abused her, yelled at her, or hurt her. It is clear that I am the alpha male. She just seems overly submissive in certain activities. Almost as if she doesn't think it is ok to do them with me. Other people that are not alpha with her do not have the same issues. Men or women. She will play with them no problem.

She is a Treeing Walking Coonhound and the breed is known to have separation anxiety issues. I work from home so we are together almost all of the time. I also take her with me almost everywhere. When I can't take her with me she cries at the window when I leave. When I arrive home she is crying at the door to see me and gets very excited. When I have to leave her with my parents for multiple days in a row she doesn't even eat until she gets home with me and even then it takes her a couple of days to get back to normal.

I got her when she was 9 months old. She was trained as a hunting dog and was already completely housebroken and pretty well trained. She is afraid of loud noises which is why the hunter that trained her was getting rid of her. She seems to have a lot of anxiety. She is always nice to visitors after they pet her and she gets a chance to sniff them. She will bark at most people that come to the house until they are introduced but she is not afraid of strangers.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can improve on this? I appreciate any help.

Thank You,
Aaron
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JoanneF
First what do you mean by alpha? How do you assert your alpha status?
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JoanneF said:
First what do you mean by alpha? How do you assert your alpha status?
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She just knows that I am in charge. I guide her and not the opposite.
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JoanneF
And - sorry for the questions but building a complete picture helps us give a more complete answer - how does she know that? What do you do, to demonstrate your alpha status?
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I make sure to maintain eye contact with her until she looks away. I have done this for the past 6 years so it happens very quickly now.

I ignore her when I don't like what she is doing.

If she doesn't want to do something I push her to do it anyway until I am satisfied.

I always go through the front door first and let her know when it is ok to come in.

I treat her the same way I treat my kids. I am their parent and then their friend. I love my dog but I don't get all mushy gushy on her.

I always make sure I am above her eye level so I don't seem submissive.

She is quite obedient to me. If we are out around other people and she is getting excited around other dogs all it takes is for me to sternly tell her to come and sit and she complies.

We don't play roughly. The most intense play we have is pulling back and forth with a rope toy. As I said in my first post, it is difficult to get her to play like this. She generally backs off like she is afraid or unsure if it is ok to play with me.

She only gets treats when I ask her to do something and she complies. Mostly during training because she has been using the standard commands for so long that praise is all that is needed.

She is a very good dog and very very rarely needs to be reprimanded. She never goes potty in the house. She does occasionally get into the trash but by the time I notice it is too late to reprimand her.

I am very strict in how I do things with her. I don't waiver in how I treat her. It is very routine.

I hope that helps you get a better picture of our relationship. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
Aaron
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emeraldecho
AaronNEmmy said:
If she doesn't want to do something I push her to do it anyway until I am satisfied.

I always go through the front door first and let her know when it is ok to come in.

I treat her the same way I treat my kids. I am their parent and then their friend. [...]

She is quite obedient to me. If we are out around other people and she is getting excited around other dogs all it takes is for me to sternly tell her to come and sit and she complies. [...]

She only gets treats when I ask her to do something and she complies. Mostly during training because she has been using the standard commands for so long that praise is all that is needed.

She is a very good dog and very very rarely needs to be reprimanded. She never goes potty in the house. She does occasionally get into the trash but by the time I notice it is too late to reprimand her.

I am very strict in how I do things with her. I don't waiver in how I treat her. It is very routine.
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It sounds like you've taken on the role of authoritarian parent. It's no wonder she doesn't view you as a playmate.

AaronNEmmy said:
I make sure to maintain eye contact with her until she looks away. [...]

I always make sure I am above her eye level
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From a dog's point of view these may be viewed as threatening behaviour.

AaronNEmmy said:
She generally backs off like she is afraid or unsure if it is ok to play with me.
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It's probably not what you want to hear, but she almost certainly is a bit afraid of playing with you...it's no fun playing with someone who won't respect your boundaries, let you stop when you're uncomfortable, and periodically threatens you. If you're serious about wanting to play, you'll have to put some time in working on building trust, allowing her some autonomy, and making yourself a 'fun' parent.
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emeraldecho said:
It sounds like you've taken on the role of authoritarian parent. It's no wonder she doesn't view you as a playmate.



From a dog's point of view these may be viewed as threatening behaviour.



It's probably not what you want to hear, but she almost certainly is a bit afraid of playing with you...it's no fun playing with someone who won't respect your boundaries, let you stop when you're uncomfortable, and periodically threatens you. If you're serious about wanting to play, you'll have to put some time in working on building trust, allowing her some autonomy, and making yourself a 'fun' parent.
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What steps do you recommend I take to rectify this? I will work hard on changing my behaviors.
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I am reading through this page and a lot of it seems relevant to what I want to achieve. I just sat down on the floor at her level with treats and would toss one to the other side of the room and say get it and she would eat the treat. Then I would say come and hold out another treat and she would come to get it. We did this for about five minutes and she already seemed to be responding well. I was using a very calm happy voice and saying "Good girl." each time she performed the task when I gave her the treat.

Oh and during this exercise at first when she would come to me she would lay down a couple of feet in front of me and crawl to me to get the treat. After a couple of minutes she was walking right up to me to get the treat and waiting for me tell her to get it as I tossed another treat.

www.zoetispetcare.com

How to Build Trust With Your Dog

Is there anything you can do to help your dog trust you? Absolutely. With a little time and patience, you can start to knock down the walls your dog has built up.
www.zoetispetcare.com www.zoetispetcare.com
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JoanneF
I'm afraid the approaches you have been using sound quite intimidating. For example to a dog, eye contact is quite intimidating - think boxers, eyeballing each other at the press conference before the big fight. Bein above her could give the impression of looming over her. Going through doors first is fairly meaningless to a dog.

These are all based on outdated theories that we needed to master and dominate our dogs. It came out of
pack leadership theory which has been thoroughly disproven and widely discredited, even by the person who developed it. It was based on flawed conclusions drawn from poorly observed evidence. The wolf pack used in the original study was not a real pack, it was a group of individuals thrown together and the situation (captivity rather than wild) skewed the data as their behaviour was not natural. And dogs are not wolves anyway, any more than we are chimpanzees - in both cases there was a shared ancestor but the species evolved in different directions. That's why we have humans AND apes, wolves AND dogs.


This article explains it quite well. Debunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal

Nobody disagrees with boundaries and good manners, but these can be established through training, building a mutually respectful relationship and without forcing submission from your dog. We certainly do not advocate aversive tools and behaviours.

If you think about leadership in your own life, the leaders (teachers , co-workers) that you respect earn that respect and inspire followership, they don't command or force it through wielding power 'just because they can'. Good leaders are supportive, are there for their dogs to look to when they are unsure, because they have taken time to build a deep bond based on trust, not on confrontation or intimidation.

As an alternative, I firmly believe all good canine relationships are founded in partnership. There are things your dog does better than you, that is something to respect. With her, where I'd start to rebuild your relationship is to reward for much smaller things - not compliance with a cue, but even checking in with you on a walk. Reward all engagement, so she comes to see you as a source of good things, not the stern authoritarian. Reward doesn't have to be treats, a game or an ear rub can do it.

Instead of you telling her 'sternly' to come, try telling her excitedly; so she comes to you because that means good things happen rather than bad things happen if she doesn't.

I respectfully suggest you fundamentally review the whole nature of your relationship and aim more for a partnership than what you have now.
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JoanneF said:
I'm afraid the approaches you have been using sound quite intimidating. For example to a dog, eye contact is quite intimidating - think boxers, eyeballing each other at the press conference before the big fight. Bein above her could give the impression of looming over her. Going through doors first is fairly meaningless to a dog.

These are all based on outdated theories that we needed to master and dominate our dogs. It came out of
pack leadership theory which has been thoroughly disproven and widely discredited, even by the person who developed it. It was based on flawed conclusions drawn from poorly observed evidence. The wolf pack used in the original study was not a real pack, it was a group of individuals thrown together and the situation (captivity rather than wild) skewed the data as their behaviour was not natural. And dogs are not wolves anyway, any more than we are chimpanzees - in both cases there was a shared ancestor but the species evolved in different directions. That's why we have humans AND apes, wolves AND dogs.


This article explains it quite well. Debunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal

Nobody disagrees with boundaries and good manners, but these can be established through training, building a mutually respectful relationship and without forcing submission from your dog. We certainly do not advocate aversive tools and behaviours.

If you think about leadership in your own life, the leaders (teachers , co-workers) that you respect earn that respect and inspire followership, they don't command or force it through wielding power 'just because they can'. Good leaders are supportive, are there for their dogs to look to when they are unsure, because they have taken time to build a deep bond based on trust, not on confrontation or intimidation.

As an alternative, I firmly believe all good canine relationships are founded in partnership. There are things your dog does better than you, that is something to respect. With her, where I'd start to rebuild your relationship is to reward for much smaller things - not compliance with a cue, but even checking in with you on a walk. Reward all engagement, so she comes to see you as a source of good things, not the stern authoritarian. Reward doesn't have to be treats, a game or an ear rub can do it.

Instead of you telling her 'sternly' to come, try telling her excitedly; so she comes to you because that means good things happen rather than bad things happen if she doesn't.

I respectfully suggest you fundamentally review the whole nature of your relationship and aim more for a partnership than what you have now.
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Thank You. This is exactly what I am looking for. Great advice.
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emeraldecho
That link does offer a lot of good basic guidelines.

You could probably go a long way just with treats and praise as a reward for engagement - which actually should include looking at you (so skip the 'challenge' staring).

Respecting their bodily autonomy and comfort is also important. So, say you need to trim their nails but it's not something they like to do: you can ask for their paw, do one nail, let the paw go, give a treat, and ask for the paw again to repeat as many times as they'll allow (even better if you can incorporate just picking up and setting down the paw without trimming, if it's the trimming they don't like and they look uncomfortable) ...and come back to it another day if you can't finish in one go. Don't forget to throw a big party and do something they love when the job is done!

You might also consider scheduled 'play time', where you're on the clock as a playmate (introducing toys and rewarding interaction) and they set the pace choosing how they want to play with you.

As @JoanneF said, you'll have a better chance building trust working with a dog as their partner than you will as an 'alpha'.
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BigBlackDog
Structured play is the best training! Fun for you AND fun for the dog!

And that stuff about not letting a dog eat or go out a door before you, or having their eye level above yours, is total horse hockey! Doesn't matter at all...
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A
Thank You all. It's amazing how well she responds to changes I make in the way I communicate with her. I did a 180 and things went a lot better. I just started her running next to me while I bike after my initial post. I bought a Walky Dog which attaches to the bike seat post. Amazing. We took a bike ride to my friend's house. I let her off leash at his house and I had a zip lock baggie with cut-up hot dog pieces in it. She would wander around and sniff around his garage. Then I would say "Emmy, come" in a pleasant and happy tone while showing her that I had a treat in my hand, and then she would walk over to me and take the treat. Then I would go back to talking to my friend and then repeat the process. She seemed to catch on to this very very quickly. Then we left his house and biked home. Overall things seem to be better. I am going to keep trying to improve myself to make things better.
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BigBlackDog
Awesome! Sounds like progress. But, unless you want her to only come when she sees a treat, you should randomly call her without showing her a treat. Of course when she comes you pay her for that with a treat still. It's just that dogs read body language better than they understand verbal commands.

So if your goal is for her eventually to come when called always, it's important to change your body language OR still without literally showing her a treat use the same hand gesture, for example, which over time becomes a non verbal come command.

Showing her the treat first is considered bribery, and the risk is that she won't do it until she sees a treat.
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emeraldecho
AaronNEmmy said:
Thank You all. It's amazing how well she responds to changes I make in the way I communicate with her. I did a 180 and things went a lot better. I just started her running next to me while I bike after my initial post. I bought a Walky Dog which attaches to the bike seat post. Amazing. We took a bike ride to my friend's house. I let her off leash at his house and I had a zip lock baggie with cut-up hot dog pieces in it. She would wander around and sniff around his garage. Then I would say "Emmy, come" in a pleasant and happy tone while showing her that I had a treat in my hand, and then she would walk over to me and take the treat. Then I would go back to talking to my friend and then repeat the process. She seemed to catch on to this very very quickly. Then we left his house and biked home. Overall things seem to be better. I am going to keep trying to improve myself to make things better.
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Because the goal is engagement and trust, you might also consider giving her the odd treat just because she comes to 'check in' - even if you didn't ask her to come.
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AllensRottie
My girl and I are still learning together, but we have made quite a bit of progress. She can sometimes be very stubborn, but lately, she has been more obedient. The one area where I have a bit of trouble is her attention span. When she ignores me, I have been ignoring her as well. I'm not sure if that's the correct approach, but lately, it has been working to some extent, although not 100%.
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LMMB
AllensRottie said:
When she ignores me, I have been ignoring her as well.
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What does that achieve? If your dog is ignoring you, then you ignoring her is going to be irrelevant to her.
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AllensRottie
LMMB said:
What does that achieve? If your dog is ignoring you, then you ignoring her is going to be irrelevant to her.
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Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I didn't claim that my training approach directly achieved anything, but my dog notices our efforts, and we are still learning together. We have made progress through the things I've researched and succeeded in, as well as from the lessons I've learned from my failures. In my opinion, there is no one guaranteed way to train a dog 100%. Everyone has their own unique approach, and some may work better than others:sneaky:
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LMMB
AllensRottie said:
Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. I didn't claim that my training approach directly achieved anything, but my dog notices our efforts, and we are still learning together. We have made progress through the things I've researched and succeeded in, as well as from the lessons I've learned from my failures. In my opinion, there is no one guaranteed way to train a dog 100%. Everyone has their own unique approach, and some may work better than others:sneaky:
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I haven’t said anything about any training methods - I was simply confused about yours and your aims and so was asking for clarification.

If something works, then, by definition, you have achieved something. You say when your dog is ignoring you, you ignore her. You say that sometimes, this works. So when it does, what happens? What does the dog do that you associate with success on your part?

For example; Your dog is barking at the neighbours. You tell her to be quiet. She ignores you and keeps barking. You ignore her. She stops and comes back to you.

Now, I can see why you might think that ignoring her for ignoring you has “worked” in this instance.

But, from her point of view, it could simply be that the neighbours have gone inside/drove away/continued walking, so there’s nothing to bark at anymore, and so she “remembers” that you’re there and you might play with her/treat her/give her a fuss. In which case, ignoring her hasn’t done anything at all. The stimulus that induced her to ignore you has simply gone.

Don’t get me wrong - ignoring a dog can work in some situations. A dog demanding attention when it’s time to settle down, for example, or puppy biting, maybe pulling like a train on the leash.

But ignoring a dog simply because it was ignoring you strikes me as counterproductive.
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AllensRottie
LMMB said:
I haven’t said anything about any training methods - I was simply confused about yours and your aims and so was asking for clarification.

If something works, then, by definition, you have achieved something. You say when your dog is ignoring you, you ignore her. You say that sometimes, this works. So when it does, what happens? What does the dog do that you associate with success on your part?

For example; Your dog is barking at the neighbours. You tell her to be quiet. She ignores you and keeps barking. You ignore her. She stops and comes back to you.

Now, I can see why you might think that ignoring her for ignoring you has “worked” in this instance.

But, from her point of view, it could simply be that the neighbours have gone inside/drove away/continued walking, so there’s nothing to bark at anymore, and so she “remembers” that you’re there and you might play with her/treat her/give her a fuss. In which case, ignoring her hasn’t done anything at all. The stimulus that induced her to ignore you has simply gone.

Don’t get me wrong - ignoring a dog can work in some situations. A dog demanding attention when it’s time to settle down, for example, or puppy biting, maybe pulling like a train on the leash.

But ignoring a dog simply because it was ignoring you strikes me as counterproductive.
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. I understand, you try and answer the question the way I understand. If I ignore her actions like you mentioned (referring to the biting), we are working together on that. For example, she loves to wrestle, and I mean, loves it, but at times she gets super excited and accidentally bites a lot harder than a nibble. Now, I admit, I'm no professional, and I am wrong at times, but I have gotten better. I used to yell at her when she didn't do whatever it was I wanted, but I no longer do that. That's where the ignoring comes in sometimes. In a situation where I may take it as she's ignoring me, I used to get mad and constantly call for her, but again, I don't really do that as I read it doesn't help. Now, I can call her, and typically she does come on command, but there are times she refuses to because of a squirrel or some creature that has her attention. I used to get angry and yell, but now I call for her once or twice, and if that doesn't work, I just wait or leave to where she can't see me. This may be wrong, and correct me if I am, by all means, I welcome support. We have our unique bond given the controversy of her being an outside dog
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