Dog Forum banner

61 - 80 of 91 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Everything you said in your reply to me is based on the assumption that positive training = behaviorism. No, it does not. Each training method is not based on or informed by only one tiny aspect of the study of psychology. The science of learning and motivation does not begin and end with operant conditioning LIKE HOLY COWS IT DOES NOT.

The assumption that positive methods equals behaviorism is why you think there is no thought given to a dog's emotional and social needs.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION?

The cutting edge techniques in positive methods revolve around the dog's social and emotional needs. It revolves around harnessing a dog's drive. It revolves around understanding the role of physiological arousal in performance. And so many more concepts that go further than that. I always say that dog training is more than P's and R's and find humor in dog trainers who run circles, chasing their tails, trying to decide if something is negative or positive or punishment or reinforcement when what quadrant you are in doesn't matter.

The dog matters. How the dog feels matters. What the dog thinks matters.

I'm sorry, but I am a bit frustrated because I have privately messaged you a while ago explaining my training techniques and giving you access to all of my videos of training my dog and you still are trying to tell me that I don't care about how my dog feels. That I'm removing free will when my whole schtick is the power of choice and free will in improving motivation and creating intrinsic value of the work itself. Which... tells me that despite giving you all the resources to be able to learn what positive training is about, you decided to ignore it.

Stop criticizing something you obviously know zilch about and obviously don't want to learn anything about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
442 Posts
I would say too many people have dogs. They've taken a place in our culture as a thing every child should grow up with, on par with a trip to Disneyworld. I would love to see a short chapter study in high schools about the realities of dogs.

But so be it, the question is how to help the average dog owner get the dog to a point they can live with. I think to criticize crates or leashes or treat training is a huge huge error. These things give the average owner tools. The alternate tools are not pretty (yelling, hitting, dumping)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #63
Everything you said in your reply to me is based on the assumption that positive training = behaviorism. No, it does not. Each training method is not based on or informed by only one tiny aspect of the study of psychology. The science of learning and motivation does not begin and end with operant conditioning LIKE HOLY COWS IT DOES NOT.

The assumption that positive methods equals behaviorism is why you think there is no thought given to a dog's emotional and social needs.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION?

The cutting edge techniques in positive methods revolve around the dog's social and emotional needs. It revolves around harnessing a dog's drive. It revolves around understanding the role of physiological arousal in performance. And so many more concepts that go further than that. I always say that dog training is more than P's and R's and find humor in dog trainers who run circles, chasing their tails, trying to decide if something is negative or positive or punishment or reinforcement when what quadrant you are in doesn't matter.

The dog matters. How the dog feels matters. What the dog thinks matters.

I'm sorry, but I am a bit frustrated because I have privately messaged you a while ago explaining my training techniques and giving you access to all of my videos of training my dog and you still are trying to tell me that I don't care about how my dog feels. That I'm removing free will when my whole schtick is the power of choice and free will in improving motivation and creating intrinsic value of the work itself. Which... tells me that despite giving you all the resources to be able to learn what positive training is about, you decided to ignore it.

Stop criticizing something you obviously know zilch about and obviously don't want to learn anything about.
So focused on one direction. Just can't see what I'm saying. I urge you to research Skiner, the good and the bad. Let him explain it to you. Skinner is correct, that in itself is scary. But Skinner isn't the only one. Read up on Abraham Marlow and his hierarchy of needs. What about Carl Rogers? I look at a child, they can be confident in a sport, they can be confident in academic studies - but they are low on self confidence.

I'm asking people - engaging people - to make an environment friendly and positive for the dog. I'll show a dog that this thing doesn't need to be a fear object. Try to turn every negative into a positive during our day to day activities - if he reacts to a person or a dog, i can't leave it that way.

But somehow, that's not positive reinforcement.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #64
But so be it, the question is how to help the average dog owner get the dog to a point they can live with. I think to criticize crates or leashes or treat training is a huge huge error. These things give the average owner tools. The alternate tools are not pretty (yelling, hitting, dumping)
It sounds like you're suggesting that if treats, crates and toys aren't used - then the alternate has to be yelling and beating the dog into submission?

I've read postings on here that make me cringe. The application of the crate, everything from making sure the dog can only stand up and lay down - can't turn around - to just lock the dog in the crate and leave. You take a high energy dog that hasn't had the energy burned off, lock it in a crate and what's the result going to be? How is that positive reinforcement or force free?

There's people that read chapter 1 of Dunbar's book, and try to potty train. My math puts that dog in a crate for 14 hours a day.

I believe that dogs CAN benefit from learning to use a crate. If they end up in a vets office, have to travel etc. I believe that dogs can benefit from muzzle training, again, vets office etc. It's a tool, but does it have to be a part of your dogs' life?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
So focused on one direction. Just can't see what I'm saying. I urge you to research Skiner, the good and the bad. Let him explain it to you. Skinner is correct, that in itself is scary. But Skinner isn't the only one. Read up on Abraham Marlow and his hierarchy of needs. What about Carl Rogers? I look at a child, they can be confident in a sport, they can be confident in academic studies - but they are low on self confidence.

I'm asking people - engaging people - to make an environment friendly and positive for the dog. I'll show a dog that this thing doesn't need to be a fear object. Try to turn every negative into a positive during our day to day activities - if he reacts to a person or a dog, i can't leave it that way.

But somehow, that's not positive reinforcement.
???

You know, I was going to type up a long response to this, but I decided not to because there is just no point. I mean, it's just completely futile. Go ahead. Believe I'm some terrible person who took away her free will. And that my dog has negative emotions. And is a compulsive gambler. Meanwhile, I'll love and dote on this doggy who I saved from the animal shelter. The one who had been through several families because nobody wanted a crazy, bitey dog who was afraid of people.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #66
???

You know, I was going to type up a long response to this, but I decided not to because there is just no point. I mean, it's just completely futile. Go ahead. Believe I'm some terrible person who took away her free will. And that my dog has negative emotions. And is a compulsive gambler. Meanwhile, I'll love and dote on this doggy who I saved from the animal shelter. The one who had been through several families because nobody wanted a crazy, bitey dog who was afraid of people.
interesting people. I suggest you read up on Skinner and others - you come back with me thinking you're a terrible person.

Wow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
@jagger I feel like the frustration comes from an inability to see your point, it very much seems like you've been talking in circles and cherry-picking from what others post and rapidly switching topics instead of being clear and concise. That leaves others to have to attempt to decipher what you are actually saying when it seems like it is all buzzwords and roundabout filler. I've had many problems on other training threads trying to figure out what your suggestions are, the only thing that you make clear is your disapproval of other people's training techniques and innate disrespect for most positive-training methods (on a positive based forum?). Most of the stories about your own successes, while wonderful if they are true, sound like fantasies and are generally unrealistic for 99% of dog owners, and some of your suggestions have been downright dangerous, so I can see where people are getting very frustrated trying to communicate.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #68
@jagger I feel like the frustration comes from an inability to see your point, it very much seems like you've been talking in circles and cherry-picking from what others post and rapidly switching topics instead of being clear and concise. That leaves others to have to attempt to decipher what you are actually saying when it seems like it is all buzzwords and roundabout filler. I've had many problems on other training threads trying to figure out what your suggestions are, the only thing that you make clear is your disapproval of other people's training techniques and innate disrespect for most positive-training methods (on a positive based forum?). Most of the stories about your own successes, while wonderful if they are true, sound like fantasies and are generally unrealistic for 99% of dog owners, and some of your suggestions have been downright dangerous, so I can see where people are getting very frustrated trying to communicate.
Here's my point. Most postings that I read are all about what the human needs. The crates, the toys, the treats etc.

I've asked this question in this forum numerous times - but to date, nobody has offered up an answer.


What does the dog need? Answer that question and you will get what I'm saying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
@Jagger that is another redirection that has nothing to do with what I said or what anyone else is saying.

But fine I'll bite. My dog needs food, he needs water, he needs safety, he needs affection, he needs exercise, he needs love. And none of my training negatively affects any of those things whatsoever. He is a happy and healthy dog who would be an infinitly less happy and healthy dog without the training I've given him.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #70
@Jagger that is another redirection that has nothing to do with what I said or what anyone else is saying.

But fine I'll bite. My dog needs food, he needs water, he needs safety, he needs affection, he needs exercise, he needs love. And none of my training negatively affects any of those things whatsoever. He is a happy and healthy dog who would be an infinitly less happy and healthy dog without the training I've given him.
Well my ideals don't apply to you then, just a different way of looking at positive reinforcement. If you have a happy balanced dog, then I'm happy for you. Wonderful.

The dog also needs trust, the dog also needs respect, the dog needs a dog centric world out of the gate, at least starting off. What else?

how common is it to read here - I don't trust my dog, he might destroy the house, might pee all over the place.

Why would a dog be destructive? Bored maybe? Frustrated maybe? A way to burn off energy? Could it be that the needs aren't being met? That's what I'm getting at.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
My point is that you are communicating poorly and that is why people are frustrated because it's impossible to have a clear conversation because your posts come off very judgemental and are also confusing and half the time don't make sense in the context of what you are replying too.

Personally I don't believe my dog needs trust. He has my trust, but that was earned and he would still be just as happy and healthy if I watched him like a hawk every second of every day. Bandit's life is human-centric, but that is his choice not mine, hetc is happiest when he is with his people and won't leave our side given a choice. I also would not hesitate to train him in something that makes my life easier because I am realistic and if my life is easier his life is easier. I would take a dog owner crating their dog while they work rather then having one more homeless doget in the world because the dog ruined the house and they can't afford the repairs anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,177 Posts
I second what doppalganger said.
You keep asking us what a dog needs. What is your answer then?
Needs and wants are different things. A dog needs is what every other living animal on this planet needs to basic survival. And on that note we have a lot yet to learn about dogs, so theres no black and white answer for the slightly rhetorical question of what a dog needs?
Training doesn't really factor in what a dog needs. Training is how we work with a dog to survive and thrive in our world, and to help them be well adjusted and not afraid of everything. Some training is to keep them (and in some cases us) safe, some is practical, and some is for fun and the enjoyment of the dog and human.
No one ever said you need a crate, toys and treats to own a dog. No one ever said its a end all be all of dog owning. I think a few people have said or eluded to this and I know ive said it before, most of those things you consider human needs are actually tools. Tools we, when using positive reinforcement training, choose to use. However just because we practice this type of training, there are plenty of people who only use some or none of those "human needs" (which really isn't the right phrase).
Let me ask you this then, if you don't like the tools we use for R+ training on this forum, what exactly do you suggest we do instead?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,177 Posts
how common is it to read here - I don't trust my dog, he might destroy the house, might pee all over the place.

Why would a dog be destructive? Bored maybe? Frustrated maybe? A way to burn off energy? Could it be that the needs aren't being met?
Is that not why people come here to ask for help? Is that not what we look at and ask questions about when we give suggestions. Not every dog owner is as knowledgeable as others or those that work with dogs on a daily basis. So yes they make mistakes, and they ask questions and they learn. Also trust is a multifaceted, grey area term that cant be applied with a one size fits all sticker.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
So, my one dog spends a good part of the day in his crate while I'm at work. Does that make me a bad dog owner? I trust him to sleep in bed with me and to run without a leash in a fenced area, but I do not trust him to be loose in my house because, well, I value my stuff and his favorite place to throw up is on my couch (he has ruined my couch).

I train my dogs in agility. I love it. I trust and respect my dogs so much more since I've started. We are both having a blast and communicating better then ever. But, I mean, according to you training is detrimental to a dog. So that must be a facade? And my dogs are crying from misery when we pull up to the ring, not because they can't wait to go play?

I think it's great that your methods work for you and Monty. I do not believe that would work for every dog OR every owner. Some people have to work full time jobs away from the home. Some people enjoy training their dog. Some dogs require more then just 'letting them be a dog'. But whatever works for you, Rock on! So glad that you and your little guy can be happy that way. Does not mean that is the only way to have a happy dog or be a good dog owner.

I believe that one of the reasons that almost every thread you get involved with turns hostile is because you do not realize how condescending or judgmental you sound. Or you may realize and just not care. But it makes it very difficult for anyone to want to take your advice when you've got a "My way or the Highway" mentality.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,418 Posts
@jagger, you keep saying to "read Skinner." He has a fairly large publication list; is there anything in particular would recommend.

Also, in my life trust is earned, not given freely. My dogs need to earn my trust and I need to earn there's. Every interaction we have - including training - helps with that.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Discussion Starter #77
I think it's great that your methods work for you and Monty.
didn't I hear the same from you when it came to Jagger? 10 years ago when I Tia in my life, you would have said the same thing.

It doesn't make you a bad owner - that's not what I'm getting at. So many people want a dog to a human centric world - that's humanizing the dog. Monty needs about 2 hours of solid exercise a day, thankfully it's been nice here and he's able to run freely at the parks. When winter hits, there's an indoor arena that we'll be going to, plans are already made. I work hard to provide for my dogs needs, to give my dog a dog-centric world within mine. Yesterday, 3 hours in the park, yeah I could have put Monty in a crate and he wouldn't have made a peep. Heck, I could have laid him in a warm mud puddle and he would have slept like a log.

Cookie, pick any book but look at overall Skinner - but more importantly think of ways that Skinner is applied to human beings - he is/was dangerous. We are all being conditioned in ways that we can't think of. Do you really believe that you have free will at all time? Look at facebook and social media alone.

Get a show of hands? Who shops at Costco? Ever go into a store looking to buy a couple of things and come out $500 poorer? Food testers? Yep, they make sales. Ever buy something at the impulse lines at the front of a store - pack of gum, chocolate bar? Ever walk into a casino? You're conditioned from the time you walk in the door to do what? Spend money and gamble - and the casino's admit it. Free will? It is an illusion - Skinner is right.

Lets get another show of hands - if you took in a small dog and you don't know all the history of the dog - how many would crate right away? How many wouldn't trust the dog? I gave the dog 100% trust, trusted that he wouldn't pee on my floor etc. 100% respect, he needs time to figure it all out. I know full well had I locked that dog in a crate, it would have been hell on paws from get go.

Here's Skinner in 1 minute.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
@jagger I feel like the frustration comes from an inability to see your point, it very much seems like you've been talking in circles and cherry-picking from what others post and rapidly switching topics instead of being clear and concise. That leaves others to have to attempt to decipher what you are actually saying when it seems like it is all buzzwords and roundabout filler. I've had many problems on other training threads trying to figure out what your suggestions are, the only thing that you make clear is your disapproval of other people's training techniques and innate disrespect for most positive-training methods (on a positive based forum?). Most of the stories about your own successes, while wonderful if they are true, sound like fantasies and are generally unrealistic for 99% of dog owners, and some of your suggestions have been downright dangerous, so I can see where people are getting very frustrated trying to communicate.
This.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
9,235 Posts
But that's the thing, you DON'T know if it would have been hell to pay. You ASSUME it would be hell to pay, but unless you do it both ways you have no way of knowing.

Honestly, it's a deflection. It's called being polite. I honestly think that you have gotten really lucky with the few dogs you refer to (and to be fair, you had your SO in the house with Jagger so who knows if she would agree with everything you have said about him, and if she is still continuing to do it today without you). I do not believe your method would work with every dog, and I think you are delusional when you say you don't train your dog. Does your dog know his name? Does he respond to it? Congrats you have TRAINED him to associate the sound of his name to you wanting his attention. If he is in the park and he is away from you and you call for him, does he respond? Maybe come running? If so you have trained him. You may not be using commands such as 'come' or 'stay' but you have trained a dog. Also you say that you can not believe that people leave dogs in their crates, and allude that you think it is wrong, but yet I am telling you I (and my husband) work full time jobs and we leave our dog in a crate. Per what you've said that would make me a bad dog owner.

The nature of the beast is I do not have the luxury of planning my life around my dogs, nor do I want to! So they will be dogs living in a human-centric world. I give them great lives and, at least from what I can tell, they are happy (they have a roof over their head, they are well fed, have many comfortable places to sleep, toys to play with. We engage them every day sometimes outside sometimes inside). You may have the luxury of being able to make your dog the center of your universe but most people can't (or won't).

The joys of this place is that we are all coming here to talk to each other about what works for them. No one is right, and unless you are blatantly abusing your dog, you're not wrong.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,404 Posts
Get a show of hands? Who shops at Costco? I do, I do Ever go into a store looking to buy a couple of things and come out $500 poorer? Rare if ever Food testers? Yep, they make sales. I plan on having my lunch with all the food testers. Ever buy something at the impulse lines at the front of a store - pack of gum, chocolate bar? Not often, very rarely. I'm not an impulse shopper. Ever walk into a casino? Heck yeah, I think these casinos are some kind of money making scheme but they don't advertise that way. I want one of those big giant checks you always see the winners holding You're conditioned from the time you walk in the door to do what? Spend money and gamble - and the casino's admit it. Well, what the heck else ya gonna do in a casino? Free will? Free will, I love it because it's nobody's fault but your own.


Lets get another show of hands - if you took in a small dog and you don't know all the history of the dog - how many would crate right away? How many wouldn't trust the dog? I gave the dog 100% trust, trusted that he wouldn't pee on my floor etc. 100% respect, he needs time to figure it all out. I know full well had I locked that dog in a crate, it would have been hell on paws from get go.

I wouldn't only because I never have.
Wicked full super moon tonight.
 
61 - 80 of 91 Posts
Top