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Minimum standards to control vicious dogs

10K views 64 replies 15 participants last post by  BullyGirl80 
#1 ·
I already have an opinion on my situation. But I am soliciting feedback from dog lovers to see how my opinion compares to everyone else's. I will try to summarize situation without editorializing too much.

For two years my neighbors have owned a male Akita. The dog is driven by dominance. Example: A toy is thrown. He will go stand over the toy and dare any other dog to come near it. He does not actually touch the toy himself. And no other dog I have seen would dare challenge him for it either.

I have personally witnessed the dog in five dog fights. The most recent resulted in my black lab having to have surgery. This is the most vicious attack I have seen, with deep punctures and head shaking.

The owners have acquired a female puppy Akita as well. I feel the male Akita's aggression escalated because he was being dominate/protective of the female dog.

Regardless of WHY the male akita dog does what he does, the bottom line is the dog has a consistent history of aggression, with the latest attack resulting in deep puncture wounds, no bite inhibition, and the owners were unable to control the dog. ie. They/we were powerless to stop the attack.

The setting for this is in a garden home community with small yards, lots of pets, and lots of small children.

Here is my question to the group: Assume this was your neighbor, and the Akitas live next door to you. As a neighbor, what are the minimum conditions that you would accept living next door to these Akitas? ie. What would the neighbors have to do to make you comfortable with the situation?

It should be noted that the dogs are generally friendly towards other pets and people.

Example topics:

Is it safe for them to walk the dogs without muzzles?

Is it safe for children to play with the dogs?

Is it safe for the dog to be kept behind a wooden six foot fence? (i.e. could the dogs dig under fence into my dog's backyard and attack him while people are not present?)

Is it safe for one person to walk both these dogs at the same time?

What are the odds of the female turning aggressive like the male?

Should the dog be treated differently now that he has lost bite inhibition and tried to kill?

Remember, I am asking what you would like to see as a neighbor. i.e. If the owners insist on owning such pets, what additional precautions would a responsible person take, if any?

Thanks in advance!
 
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#2 ·
Just as a side note aggression is more driven by fear than dominance. If he was a dog confident in his social standing... he wouldn't feel the need to guard toys with his life or chase down random people and 'eliminate the threat'.

I believe a lot of jurisdictions have a limit on how many bites a dog can inflict on other animals/humans before it is euthed. If it can be proven that the dog has inflicted x number of moderate/serious bites the animal can usually be seized.

At the very least for an dog-aggressive dog I would expect the owner to be in control 100% of the time, whatever that takes. Not opening doors until the dog is leashed, and being able to keep leash in hand at all times. Definitely no off-leash walking or running loose on the property. But just estimating from the amount of hurt this dog has caused already I'll wager that you can count on the owners to not give a flying crap about the safety of other people and dogs. What I would do instead is...

-Check in with animal control and get the lowdown on their approach and laws regarding vicious dogs. Report the bite if you haven't already.
-Avoid these dogs at all costs: Don't walk on the same side of the street as them. Keep your dog (and kids if you have them) away from them, and encourage others to follow suit.
-Don't leave your dog outside unsupervised if you are concerned that the dogs may dig under or jump the fence.
-Carry bear mace or pepper spray, whatever is legal where you are. I am told that it is not a magic solution (though I carry it myself when walking dogs to fend off wildlife, aggressive dogs and people if necessary) BUT if the owners are there and see you aiming a canister of mace at their dogs face you can bet that they will be a bit quicker to at least try and control their dog!

It's always so horrible to see dogs like this. It really has nothing to do with dominance; it is either the result of pathological issues with temperament/psychology or poor/no effort to socialize the dogs to humans. Seeing that these people bought another puppy knowing full well that their current dog is dog aggressive, I'm betting on the latter.
 
#3 ·
The toy guarding is not about dominance, it's about resource guarding and resource guarding is usually driven by insecurity not a need to be dominant. Basically the dog is paranoid someone will take their thing and they are telling everyone it's there's and to back off or else they will attack.

Dog Aggression can be driven by fear, barrier / leash frustration, or just a hatred of other dogs, it depends on the dog but again it usually has very little to do with dominance. The dog is trying to drive off or kill the other dog not dominate it.

It's also important to note that dog aggression does not usually mean the dog will also be people aggressive.

No it is not safe to keep a severely dog aggressive dog behind a wooden fence. Wood fences can be hopped, dug under, and some dogs can also manage to break the fence boards.

It may or may not be safe for a child to play with that Akita, it depends on what the dog resource guards, and the child should NEVER be left alone with the dog. Then again I would not leave a small child alone with your lab either.

Walking the dog without a muzzle would depend on how much control the owner has over the dog. Personally I would not.

The dog did not lose bite inhibition, it had perfect bite inhibition and knew exactly what it was doing. The dog should be treated as what it is a severely dog aggressive dog and every precaution should be taken to ensure that the dog cannot get loose and attack another dog. If the owner cannot take those precautions then the dog should be humanely put to sleep.

My minimum standards would be keeping the dog contained or on leash at all times. The dog is not allowed in the yard alone but must be kept in an escape proof kennel or in the house. When walking the dog two leashes are used, one attached to a harness the other held loose and attached to the collar, and the dog needs to wear a muzzle. If the dog is a door dasher then the dog needs to be either in a kennel or in a room behind a closed door before anyone opens the door to the outside.
 
#14 ·
The toy guarding is not about dominance, it's about resource guarding and resource guarding is usually driven by insecurity not a need to be dominant. Basically the dog is paranoid someone will take their thing and they are telling everyone it's there's and to back off or else they will attack.

Dog Aggression can be driven by fear, barrier / leash frustration, or just a hatred of other dogs, it depends on the dog but again it usually has very little to do with dominance. The dog is trying to drive off or kill the other dog not dominate it.
I am not a professional and do not claim to be. But I have worked with dogs all my life, read books, taken classes, etc. Perhaps my lingo is off.

The dog is all about being the alpha dog. With every dog he sees, he will run up to it, chest bowed, to challenge it. I don't think it is about resource guarding because he is not food aggressive. I think his brain is wired that it is all about being alpha. I think it is a need to be dominate. It is a very different behavior than the dog who is guarding his bone and growls at other dogs who come near it. His behavior is very different than that.

And I think the owners made a fatal error by reinforcing the behavior with this stupid thing she was taught at Petsmart to growl at the dog. When I first met the dog I could tell it needed to immediately be neutered and receive advanced training--not basic obedience training that are appropriate for 99.9% of dogs.

Anyway, perhaps the first four fights were 'dominate' fights, and that is why the Akita did not inflict severe puncture wounds. But the latest attack was him trying to protect the female, and that is why he tried to kill my dog. But my dog is a submissive lab and did not / would not do anything threatening. So that is a flaw in my theory, and why I come back to dominance.

Maybe he is insecure about being dominate?

If anyone has a link to the exact definitions of 'aggressive' and 'dominate' I would like to read them.
 
#4 ·
I would be very concerned about living near these dogs, as my dog is much smaller (23 pounds) than an Akita. If it were attacked, I'm fairly certain it would be killed. I would definitely avoid the dogs, and I certainly wouldn't allow a child to play with them, even if they do not appear to be aggressive toward humans. If the male is resource guarding, and a child reached for something it regarded as his, such as a toy, he might very well react aggressively. Given how much larger an Akita could be than a small child, that could easily be disastrous. I also agree that I really wouldn't leave a small child alone with any dog, no matter how child-friendly. Any dog, sufficiently provoked, might react, and some children really can go past a dog's reasonable limits quickly, simply because they either don't know any better or because they decide to disobey whatever rules they've been given regarding the dog. Or they just react without thinking, due to their obvious immaturity (they are, after all, kids).

I'd also be really concerned as to why they suddenly acquired a female Akita, even if it is still a puppy at the moment. If the male hasn't been neutered, they may be thinking of breeding Akitas, and the owners don't sound like they're responsible enough to own a dog, much less breed dogs.
 
#11 ·
I'd also be really concerned as to why they suddenly acquired a female Akita, even if it is still a puppy at the moment. If the male hasn't been neutered, they may be thinking of breeding Akitas, and the owners don't sound like they're responsible enough to own a dog, much less breed dogs.
The puppy is supposed to be a 'show dog'.

The male dog was neutered in order to get the puppy. This is one of the factors that made me decide to make a stand. (I'm taking off my impartial hat now.) After the first five fights (that I know of), they should have gotten the dog neutered. But they didn't. They only got him neutered when they decided to get a puppy, and I'll bet you money the breeder would not place the dog in a house without an unneutered dog. This says alot about them.
 
#5 · (Edited)
You said the Akita was normally good with pets,does that mean the dogs it fought where challenging/harassing or attacking it and than the Akita took it to a whole another level or did the Akita just run up and maul other dogs?
A dog with bite inhibition may actually lose it if the other dog is biting them as well,so I don't like to judge a dog in that situation. Even if that dog normally does have bite inhibition with other dogs,but a dog that straight goes for another dog and grabs on should be muzzled in public.

Dog aggression is also not the same as human,although a child shouldn't walk,be alone with and they need to extra careful the kid does not let the dog loose the dog I can't say it would actually harm them.

I wouldn't want to live by that dog because he would be the type of dog my dog would fight,and would probably get in a nasty one.
 
#6 ·
I agree with Foresthound, a dog can seem like it's a 'good' (relative term, hah) pet or more accurately a friendly and stable dog until someone crosses a boundary that the dog is extremely sensitive to... charging up to the dog, grabbing the dog, getting too friendly or unfriendly, towering over it, looking the dog in the eye, etc. This can go to extremes where all another dog has to do is approach the dog or suddenly walk into view and it has startled the aggressive dog so badly that he panics and tries to 'eliminate' the threat.

The difference is that ideally; naturally, a dog will show warning signs and allow that person/dog a chance to back off. Dogs don't naturally 'like' to fight; even those that are bred for dog fighting. If there is an opportunity to de-escalate the situation they will take it. But if handled improperly by humans (ignoring/discouraging growling, forcing the dog to be around things that they want to get away from, etc) they give those that they are afraid of less and less chances before they resort to fighting them.
 
#7 ·
I live outside a very small town in the middle of nowhere Idaho. I also live about mile outside the town limits. I'm in the the country, but still in a small neighborhood - there are about 9 houses on our road. A dog like that wouldn't last long around here...it would be shot before it attacked neighborhood dogs more than a few times...much less five times.

The dog owners would probably get a firm warning about it on the first attack or two...then someone would do what they promised and solve the problem of a vicious dog.

Law enforcement around here kind of turns a blind eye to that kind of stuff if they find out from a number of neighbors that the dog has been biting/attacking pets. Also around here a rancher and legally shoot any dog on his property...(they might be there to chase livestock).

So people here, if they are serious about their dog's well being...don't let their dogs run around. However, a lot of them do work in their driveways and are out in their front unfenced yards with their dogs and any stray dog coming from some other place could cause problems. And if a dog gets shot on a property that is not their owners, like I said, the law doesn't really get involved.

In more 'civilized' areas I suppose the only thing you can do is keep calling the authorities...video the dog off it's property as proof and hope that anything it attacks time and again doesn't die before something is done about it. If your neighbors were serious about their dog never hurting anyone again, it would be muzzled before ever allowed to outside...but even then a dog can escape out a door before being stopped.

Sorry to hear your dog got hurt. I hope your 'neighbors' foot the whole vet bill.

Stormy
 
#8 ·
What were the circumstances of these attacks? I am just wondering since you say this dog is normally friendly with people and pets.

I don't want to comment and what should or shouldn't be done with the Akita because I don't know the dog or the owner.

There is a couple in my building with a large aggressive mutt they got from the shelter and I have no issues with them around. They walk the dog on leash unmuzzled, they let the dog off leash in the courtyard at night after making sure it is empty and when passing in the hall they either move the dog off to the side if there is room or they both step in front of him. I know the dog is aggressive so I keep my dogs away from him, I do not approach him and if I had kids they would also be kept away from him and it works perfectly for all because the dog is happy when left alone by strangers anyways.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
What were the circumstances of these attacks? I am just wondering since you say this dog is normally friendly with people and pets.
A couple of people asked this.

I was stupid to let my dog in their backyard, even supervised. So please don't point that out. I made a terrible mistake by trusting my neighbor's judgement.
 
#9 ·
Answering your questions in order IMO:

Yes, depending on why the Akita attacked the dogs, if they are not actively seeking out dogs to go after and just need space I think muzzles are not necessary.

To play with the dogs, I don't know. Doesn't sound like there has been any human aggression so just based on your post I think supervised play is fine.

To me the fence sounds okay. Dogs can jump over or dig under fences but like I said it depends on the Akitas are they just minding their own business and attack when a dog comes near, are they searching for dogs to attack, do the sight of dogs set them off, etc.

Depends on the level of aggression but I would not walk these dogs by myself.

Akitas are known for not being very dog friendly, and it's definitely possible for the female to become aggressive too.

Yes they should be treated differently than other dogs after 5 fights. If they were my dogs they would be in training and other than that I would not bring other dogs around them period.

If they were my neighbors I would like to see the dogs in training more than anything. Training and effort to keep their dogs away from other dogs.
 
#12 ·
I would like to thank everyone for their considerate replies. I just wanted a reality check to make sure I wasn't off base.

Had I posted this in most forums, it would have veered off topic very quickly. Everyone here read my post and actually answered my questions. This is very impressive. I hope you can feel my sincere gratitude.
 
#13 ·
Well thank goodness for that responsible breeder then!!! The last thing these people need to be doing is making puppies.

Hopefully animal control involves themselves here, especially since there is another dog in the house. Unspayed females are known for being... well, bitches and with a dog-aggressive dog in the house I could easily see them coming to blows against each other.
 
#17 ·
...I think that he's being insecure about being insecure!!!

When we use the terms dominant around here we are talking about dominance on the terms that the posters are using it (as it has about a million definitions), and thats usually dominance as defined by dominance theory.

To set something right; dogs can be very intimidating without meaning to if they are the goofy type, or are younger or simply not very socially apt (sticking their face in other dog's faces, etc). You see this a lot with dogs that are very bubbly, puppyish or playful in nature. They often set big dogs on edge and set small dogs running away screaming and they have no clue why anyone would think they are so scary!!!

I work with one or two dogs (including my own) that would be considered especially 'dominant' according to dominance theory. They are confident and calm but outgoing around other dogs, establish clear boundaries and hold the dogs that they play with to them. They are the dogs that I would least expect aggression from. They know very well that they are in no physical danger; even when playing with a goofy adolescent lab with weak grasp of 'manners' or 'boundaries'.

Look through my pictures at Lexy and Comanche. The lab pup can run up and tackle the GSD at full speed, grab him in a 'hug' around the shoulders and mouth/nip his face. He isn't alarmed, threatened or defensive about this in the slightest. He will even play coy to get her to chase him if she is too shy/submissive to play rough with him (which he loves). He is definitely what many would consider a dominant dog, or more accurately, a domineering, confident and bold personality. But he is a dog that I would least expect fearful/aggressive behaviours from.
 
#23 ·
...I think that he's being insecure about being insecure!!!

When we use the terms dominant around here we are talking about dominance on the terms that the posters are using it (as it has about a million definitions), and thats usually dominance as defined by dominance theory.

To set something right; dogs can be very intimidating without meaning to if they are the goofy type, or are younger or simply not very socially apt (sticking their face in other dog's faces, etc). You see this a lot with dogs that are very bubbly, puppyish or playful in nature. They often set big dogs on edge and set small dogs running away screaming and they have no clue why anyone would think they are so scary!!!

I work with one or two dogs (including my own) that would be considered especially 'dominant' according to dominance theory. They are confident and calm but outgoing around other dogs, establish clear boundaries and hold the dogs that they play with to them. They are the dogs that I would least expect aggression from. They know very well that they are in no physical danger; even when playing with a goofy adolescent lab with weak grasp of 'manners' or 'boundaries'.

Look through my pictures at Lexy and Comanche. The lab pup can run up and tackle the GSD at full speed, grab him in a 'hug' around the shoulders and mouth/nip his face. He isn't alarmed, threatened or defensive about this in the slightest. He will even play coy to get her to chase him if she is too shy/submissive to play rough with him (which he loves). He is definitely what many would consider a dominant dog, or more accurately, a domineering, confident and bold personality. But he is a dog that I would least expect fearful/aggressive behaviours from.
The problem is the Akita likely got too used to fighting at the moment,that it expects to fight with every dog it sees. My Rott was rather similar acting at a time,although not as bad but it had a lot to do with him being attacked multiple times by aggressive loose dogs. It's like war in their head,that it's their job to get rid of any threatening medium-large dog that comes near. Once I moved and the fights pretty much stopped he loosened up a lot more. Still kind of had dominant behavior but now he could handle strange dogs running up to him and jumping on him,nipping at him and if a female even aggressively charging him and act like he enjoyed it. He will also act more goofy and will sometimes pretend to be coy to get their attention. In fact he was always a playful dog but after one particular nasty fight he kind of changed for a bit. He will never be perfect with other dogs and same with the Akita,but I do think with some training and better control the Akita can improve with other dogs.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Oh! Also dominance is the "priority access to preferred limited resources". In other words dominance is about who has control of resources like food, shelter, water, breeding, etc. Dogs (and other animals) do not need to use aggression/force to achieve "dominance" and often do not (and even when they do use "aggression" it's often just a ritual display because truly fighting over resources is life threatening). "Dominance" is not a fixed personality trait and in dogs is fluid. ie. The dog who has a bone is dominant. The one who doesn't have the bone is submissive. Later on the "submissive" may gain access to that bone thus becoming "dominant".;)

That is a very simplified explanation. If you really want to learn more about it then the link Rain gave you have a bunch of links to articles explaining it in much more detail.
 
#24 ·
That is exactly what I'm driving at, forest; dominance and even confidence is not what spurs aggression; it's fear, discomfort and defensiveness. Your dog shows just the examples that I am looking for here. Although a dominance-based trainer would probably consider him dominant he is probably quite tolerant and laid back, even around a real nutbar of a dog, unless a fresh (or badly-healed) trauma in his mind is giving him a reason to act like he has something to prove.
 
#25 ·
I believe what Kelly and forest are saying and it is what I has always felt about my GSD as well, after the dog fight when Xena was a puppy he never looked at other dogs the same way and always seemed to act as if in his mind if he did not attack the other dog they would attack us. With training he is now relaxing around other dogs though he still doesn't like them approaching him.
 
#26 ·
And because some just skimmed over the fact that your pooch (not an attack or judgement) was on the akitas territory. Resource guarding can sometimes be more territorial as much as food/toys/people.
By no means does this excuse the dogs attack but you may have to look at it from the akitas point that you were in his territory and perhaps he had already growled/bowed up to get your dog to leave and none worked so his last resort was to bite. And many of the other situations (bites) could very well be the same thing.
I would highly encourage your neighbors to get a behaviourist to help with the akitas issues.
And I will end with glad to hear your pup is OK now.
 
#29 ·
My dog was on the Akitas territory. I clearly disclosed that. The akita's owner assured me that he would be safe. I was stupid to listen to her.

Anyway, the key points are that it would be one thing if this was the first attack. It is the sixth I know of.

It would be another if this was a normal dog attack. I've worked with dogs for 35 years and never seen anything like this. You folks comparing this to regular dog fights that involve snapping are not grasping how wild the dog went. Three adults could do nothing with the dog.

It also would be one thing if this was the first dog attack. But since the dog HAS CRASHED THROUGH A WINDOW TO ATTACK A DOG ON THE STREET, I think it is fair to say that a persistent history has shown.

The bottom line is that the dog has now lost all bite inhibition. This means that future attacks will involve similar injury. Also, the owners cannot say they can control the dog. Because when the dog 'goes wild', nobody can control it.

Again, this is not a regular dog scuffle. I am a believer in Ian Dunbar's Dog Bite scale, and this was a level 4 or 5 attack. ie. 99%+ of all dog bites are much less sever than this. There was no snapping in this attack. I can totally see Akitas as bear hunters now. It is the most humbling experience I have ever had. And I have worked with plenty large, 'dangerous breed', dogs previously.
 
#27 ·
Sorry for your dog getting hurt.

I agree with others that some more information is known. I have 3 dogs, 2 of them of bit each other over the 12 year period. Once my lab bit my shepherd mix early on when they were around a year old over a bone. He severed her ear requiring stiches and blood was everywhere. After that, I was more careful with those types of toys and no incidents happened even with them left unsupervised with each other until a few months back. My shepherd mix became defensive of my third dog. When my lab growled at my puppy and snapped (no bite), by shepherd mix jumped on him and bite him in the face (again she is very protective of the puppy). I said No and she backed down. But my male was punctured.

Why do I tell you this information? These are my 3 dogs. Two have lived with each other for 12 years and there have been incidents, but there was a decade of no incidents. My dogs have been around a lot of other dogs with no issue. Early on I didn't understand to monitor really high value treats until you could read all your dogs and with my new puppy I didn't seriously think my 12 year old would take over as mother hen role. This was news to me as well.

If the Akita bites have all been in play over escalating and going wrong and the first few incidents were more snaps that didn't result in any injury, I may focus more on how they have responded since the major incident with your dog. Have they stopped allowing their dog to socialize with other dogs? Did they pay for the surgery? Did they genuinely seem concerned about your dog? Do you see them trying to fix any issues? If yes, can you give them the benefit of the doubt and talk openly with them about your concerns?

Akitas are known for gender aggression. Is your dog a male? You may look into this as well to see if the incidents have all be with males. It is kind of a different issue then general dominance and aggression. As far as I know, Akitas are just less tolerant of being bossed around by the same gender and if these incidents all happened during play that escalated, it may be the case. Something to manage, but I have researched getting a jindo which have some similar traits and I picked up quickly that it probably wouldn't be a dog I could take to a dog park safely or trusts around lots of dogs. Do you neighbors ever talk about this part of their breed?

To questions like should their dogs be walked and walked together. Are the dogs under control? When they see other dogs do they react? When I was very tiny, I would walk 3 dogs together. I was around 120lbs and my dogs total weight was around 200lbs. I managed without issue even though 2 of them had high prey drive. I felt confident with my leave it command.

For the fence issue. I think this is sometimes a breed specific issue, but it still comes down to the dog. I have a husky and they often look at fences as minor obstacles to the fun that awaits on the other side. Some are houdinis with fences and some are more easily contained. But the common statement I hear is that intact males are the most likely escape artist. Has the Akita been known to escape? How old is the Akita? If an intact male who is a little older has not tried to escape, personally I would say there is lower risk of this particular dog trying to escape and it was likely helped by him getting fixed. With huskies as a side note, sometimes one dog can make another dog act foolish. So some have had huskies for a few years without issue, then they bring in a new husky who likes to escape and the pack escape together. Not sure if Akitas are this much like huskies or not, but just a warning I would give you.
 
#28 ·
Why do I tell you this information? These are my 3 dogs. Two have lived with each other for 12 years and there have been incidents, but there was a decade of no incidents. My dogs have been around a lot of other dogs with no issue. Early on I didn't understand to monitor really high value treats until you could read all your dogs and with my new puppy I didn't seriously think my 12 year old would take over as mother hen role. This was news to me as well.

If the Akita bites have all been in play over escalating and going wrong and the first few incidents were more snaps that didn't result in any injury, I may focus more on how they have responded since the major incident with your dog. Have they stopped allowing their dog to socialize with other dogs? Did they pay for the surgery? Did they genuinely seem concerned about your dog? Do you see them trying to fix any issues? If yes, can you give them the benefit of the doubt and talk openly with them about your concerns?

Akitas are known for gender aggression. Is your dog a male? You may look into this as well to see if the incidents have all be with males. It is kind of a different issue then general dominance and aggression. As far as I know, Akitas are just less tolerant of being bossed around by the same gender and if these incidents all happened during play that escalated, it may be the case. Something to manage, but I have researched getting a jindo which have some similar traits and I picked up quickly that it probably wouldn't be a dog I could take to a dog park safely or trusts around lots of dogs. Do you neighbors ever talk about this part of their breed?
You had two dog bite situations in 12 years.These folks have had six (that I know of) in 14 months.

I have openly talked to them. The issue is not the latest incident on April 23. My grievance is that they continued business as usual after the incident. ie. They are treating the vicious dog like a normal pet. On May 1, I asked them what they were going to do about the dogs. When they did not indicate they were going to take any precautions that an ordinary prudent person would, I told them that we would have to agree to disagree, and that I would do everything I could to remove the dogs.

The dogs have a history of digging holes. My neighbor and I periodically fill in holes between the fence. Now that I know the dog is capable of killing, this is unsafe. Especially considering they have a puppy that will soon hit the 1 year old phase where she is fully grown but still has puppy ownriness. The digging will not improve with this. I could easily come home to find Jake dead.

This weekend I will fortify the fence with cinder blocks. The fact that I am fortifying the fence to keep their dog out, and they have done nothing to keep their dogs in, speaks volumes.

If the neighbors were responsible like you, this would not be an issue. If I saw that they respected the fact that it takes one slip over--one slip up over the entire life of the dog--then something bad could happen that will never be undone. If I saw that they recognized the risks, then I would not be involved. But the woman is blinded by love of her pets. The man is blinded by love of his girlfriend. Collateral damage is not of their concern.

If I missed any other important questions, let me know. The moderator took down the link to my report. I will cut and paste some of the report in a new thread so you can see specific examples. And I will upload some pics.
 
#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
Here are pictures of the dogs.

Here is what I said in my report about the incident. Names and personal information have been redacted.

April 23, 2014, Black Lab Attack #2 – Jake the lab accompanied me while I worked in my yard. M was in her backyard with her dogs. Jake whined, indicating that he wanted to play with the other dogs. I ask M if she felt it was safe for him to enter her backyard, and she assured me it was. Therefore, we agreed to let Jake in her back yard to play with the dogs.

These dogs have been socialized around each other, and had not had an incident with each other in a year (that I am aware of.) Therefore, in a decision I will always regret, I felt the risks were minimal and asked for Jake to be allowed to be play with her dogs. Again, I was assured that it would be safe. However, I have witnessed with my own eyes that the dog was unpredictable. Therefore, I have no excuse for putting my dog in that position, and have deep regrets about this.

I was on the other side of the fence, and did not witness the initial attack. I heard M yelling, and ran into the back yard to find the most violent dog attack I’ve ever seen. This was much more violent than anything I’d seen in my life.

The Akita had my dog locked in a bite on its back and was violently shaking his head. It was awful. There was no bite control—the Akita ‘went wild’, and would have mauled my dog to death had we not been there.

I pulled the Akita by his back legs, as is the recommended technique for breaking up dog fights. But it had no positive effect. The dog did not release his grip on Jake and literally pulled yelping Jake across the yard with him.

J heard the commotion and joined M and I in the yard. J, M and I tried to pinch his jaws and pull his mouth apart so that he would release Jake. All three of us working
together were unable to make him budge.

I then tried to strangle the dog. But I wimped out and was unable to kill the dog with my bare hands.

When people tell stories like this frequently say, ‘it seemed like minutes’. Well, this fight actually did last minutes. It went on and on and on.

J held Akio’s head still in an effort to keep him from shaking and causing further damage to Jake. I got the garden hose and began squirting Akio in the face, as this is another technique I had read about. This had no effect on the dog, but, instead, caused Jay to loosen his grip on the dog, and he was able to pull out of the head lock and shake his head again.

For some reason, that moment has stuck in my mind as the worst moment of the dog fight.

Jake’s skin had now been ripped from his connective tissue. Behind Jake’s yelping and J's yelling and Akio’s growling, the sound of Akio’s flapping Jake’s skin back and forth haunts my ears.

I ran to my garage and looked for some tool that we might use to pry Akio’s mouth open. Unfortunately, I do now own a crow-bar. I grabbed a broom and returned to the back yard. I could not fit the broom handle in Akio’s mouth without crushing M’s fingers. But if J or M stopped pulling his jaws apart even for a minute, he would have clamped down harder with scissor like effect.

I asked Jay if he wanted me to shoot the dog. I could not think of any other options. I had to ask him several times before I got an answer. He finally replied, “What? No!”

I returned to my garage to search for something that might work as a crow bar. I heard change in the sound and returned to find the fight had ended.

Later, we were standing on my back porch and were all shaken up. M had bite marks on her arms from Jake reflexively snapping back towards his attacker. I don’t know if J and M realize the danger they were in, but for the duration of the fight they put their own bodies in harm’s way by being in middle of the intense dog fight.

M said something about her Chihuahua, Cody, barking and J yelling being the reason the fight was so hard to break up. I disagreed. The hero of the fight is J. In the end he had the courage to do what I couldn’t, and put his dog in a choke hold and choke him until he blacked out. That is what stopped the fight.

I will always wonder if what happened next was caused by the dog fight, or was just an unlucky coincidence.

My breathing became labored and I began to wheeze. I used my Albuterol inhaler, which should have cleared it right up. But my breathing it did not improve—it got worse. M, a nurse, looked in my throat and said it was swelling. That is when it occurred to me that I was having an allergic reaction to an antibiotic I had been taking, Bactrim DS.

I believe the dog fight was the catalyst that caused the reaction, but not the cause. Regardless, the dog fight contributed to a life threatening situation.

Jake had surgery to be sutured and to have drainage tubes put in. He will make a full recovery physically. He still shakes and trembles unlike he ever has before. Unknown if trauma will be temporary or permanent. Unfortunately, he is more skittish now. This makes him higher risk to snap, and will affect his quality of life moving forward. (Photos 5,6, 7, 8, 9)
 
#32 ·
Bites go on scales, yes, but a dog cannot 'lose' bite inhibition. That would be like you losing 'punch inhibition'.

The dog can bite lighter if he wants but he fully intended to bite as hard as he did.

What you are seeing is a dog that gets progressively more fearful and defensive, meaning more and more 'business' when he attacks because he keeps having scary, frightening experiences with other dogs. Instead of wasting time taking it out back, he just goes in for the sucker-punch because he is going from 0-60 very fast and wants the other dog gone now, now, now!

Is the dog 'wrecked'? Doesn't sound like it. Could a behaviourist fix this? Probably. But in the best of cases he will never be a dog who is happy to keep the company of strange dogs let alone rude ones.

Don't just reinforce your fence, keep your dog inside. There's no reason for a dog to be unsupervised in the backyard when you are out; this is how dogs get into mischief, get attacked by wildlife (bears and raccoons are well capable of hopping a 6 foot fence), get attacked by dogs, annoy neighbours with barking and then consume the rat poisoned that they might toss over the fence if they are ill-intentioned enough. If can't keep the dog in the house invest in a good dog run.
 
#35 ·
I think you know more than I do, Kelly. I am an amateur and do not advertise differently. But I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Regardless of WHY the dog bites as hard as he does, we both agree that he does.

Hypothetically, a dog behaviorist could only fix this if the owners were trainable. They are not. And they have run out of chances to play russian roulette with other people's lives. So the dog will pay the price. It is sad.

re: bite inhibition. When I say he 'loses bite inhibition' I suppose I technically mean his bite inhibition is insufficient. I think this is nitpicking semantics. Point is, once a dog bites that hard there is a serious problem. Dr. Dunbar says that level 5 and 6 bites mean that the owner is 'screwed', as there is little hope of rehabilitation. A level 4 bite means the dog should probably be owned by a professional. Which these folks most certainly are not.

Kelly, through my computer screen I can feel your frustration. I know you would like to evaluate the dog personally, and you hate stories like this where a good dog pay the price for their and my ignorance. For whatever it is worth, there are many professions like that--where everyone has an opinion, but only a select few truly have an informed one.

Believe it or not, I know I am an amateur. I am sorry I don't have the words to express how the dogs behaviors differ from other dogs. I just don't. Sorry. :(
 
#33 · (Edited)
Based on that report and your description of events. I think you are perfectly justified in taking action. If it were me I would do everything I could to secure my yard from theirs carry some kind of protection on walks.

I just saw Kelly's comment and would like to say. It's unfair to expect someone to not be able to use their own backyard because of a neighbor.
 
#39 ·
Keep in mind that this behavior is just a desired trait of a dog trained to hunt large game; this response to fear. Instead of all 'eek, get away, I'll bite, I swear!' They go to "YOU LOOKIN AT ME?! HUH?! HUH?! WELL IMMA BASH YOUR FACE IN.[/i]

It's like the typical huge, beefy guy with 'roid rage. They are all talk and confidence on the exterior but deep down there is some anxiety driving that.

When you are hunting large game, baiting bulls, fighting dogs or the like, this is exactly the sort of 'fear' response you want. Full intent to scare and kill, not avoid or make friendly.
 
#42 ·
This makes more sense to me than the original wording. If you are saying they are insecure about being the top dog, then I completely agree. The roid rage example is perfect. They act cocky. But on the inside the reason they are obsessed with bodybuilding and physique is insecurity. I call acting cocky like that acting dominate. But apparently the word 'dominate' has all sorts of other connotations nowadays that didn't exists years ago.

Anyway, that is convinces me you get it @kelly528. :)

I'm convinced that the woman growling at the dog and letting the dog growl back was a mistake. The way I have always trained dogs is I say 'sit' so the dog can hear it. Then I say 'sit' so the room can hear it. Then I say 'sit' so the whole neighborhood can hear it. At that point, if the dog hasn't complied, I'd better be doing something to make his ass sit down quickly. Otherwise he has won. And I don't see how me growling at the dog and letting it growl back leads to obedience. She let the dog win. It was a failure of the owner, and a failure of Petsmart with their bull**** training, and a true professional could see this train wreck coming a mile away....
 
#40 · (Edited)
To me that depends on the situation of the bite,my rott even when more aggressive had bite inhibition unless the other dog was full force on him first. So technically my dog has done pretty much a level 5 bite,it's just very abnormal for him. I was wondering if it was the case with the Akita as well,but it doesn't sound like it now.

Now some of this type of "fear" response is desired in a way with pretty much large game hunting,ground terriers,fighting and perhaps even protection and cattle herding dogs. Still with a lot of those dogs they don't want one that will freak out un-necisarrilly and can be calm most of the time. With a cattle herding dog they want a dog that will challenge a angry bull not just stand there and let itself get hit and not so fearful it will run away like most(even very confident) dogs actually would. A lot is also a mix of prey drive with fight drive. It's a different kind of trait you want than something like the typical Golden retriever that is bomb proof around other animals and very confident but would not do well with fighting off a 200lb man or angry cow.

Now with this Akita I do think it is over-reacting,and is stuck on fight brain and acting insecure instead of just fighting when challenged or attacked.
 
#43 ·
Now with this Akita I do think it is over-reacting,and is stuck on fight brain and acting insecure instead of just fighting when challenged or attacked.
It has instigated every attack. No normal dog is going to challenge this dog. We have a huge mastiff in our neighborhood named 'Jaws'. I wish Jaws would teach the akita a lesson.
 

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#41 ·
I trust your words, no need to see the report. Just was not understanding history and how they were responding. Sounds bad though. I guess when my dogs play with other dogs I care for their dogs and they care for mine. It is sad a big incident like this one did not wake them up.

Back to fence thing. The cinder blocks may help. You can also bury chicken wire to help reinforce as well. Have you considered them jumping the fence? Sometimes coyote rollers can help and you can DIY them as well if you are handy. It assumes though they cannot clear a six foot fence in one jump. If you leave your dog outside, is there any possibility to have them inside when you cannot supervise?

The last thing I would say is social pressure sometimes works. Talk to other neighbors and if all the attacks have been serious start having more people keep an eye on them and reporting anything bad.
 
#44 ·
I have done all that including the social pressure. It sort-of backfired. I was unable to walk Jake because he had diarrhea from the antibiotics. They walked their dogs every day and told everyone how nice they were, and that my dog wasn't really hurt that bad.

I've figured out how to attach pictures now.

Most people don't want to get in the middle of it. But I'd say the odds of a future incident going unnoticed have been reduced.

I've also learned that most people don't know their dog breeds. I spent time asking around, trying to find the owners of some huskies that I'd seen the Akita attack. Most people think the akita is a husky, or a chow, or a white german shepherd. Most people don't know the difference between a husky and an australian shepherd. I guess I'm a bigger dog geek than I realized LOL...

I've never heard the term coyote roller. I just looked them up, and that is a great idea! I think I'll take a youtube video of the fence to see if you guys have any other ideas.
 

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#45 ·
Ouch, poor Jake. I have to say I feel very grim about this dog's future with those owners, and if there are more bites like this the dog will probably end up euthanized. Very sad, I think there could still be a chance for him but it is probably the last one. I don't know what else you can really do since unfortunately they own the dog. I say do what you can to protect yourself and your dogs, I hope Jake heals quickly.
 
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