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Discussion Starter #1
LOL Well you said you liked training questions so I had to ask, and I didn't want to rob the topic in your other threads.

It sounds like you think NRM's are not a good training tool _you were talking about tippy I think, getting confused when you sat on teh floor. The dog was offering other behaviors and you were saying using an NRM would make him disengage?

Anywho-I see this a lot with Mikey-we're not sure if he's confused, or playing around (ie. choosing not to do what we are asking) or what?

Dave uses a lot of NRM's with him...should we stop doing this? If he's confused, let him offer behaviors or lure him into the correct one? :ponder:

Love your opinion on this, Mikey got REALLY frustrated with me doing bow-he kept trying to lay down and I NRM'd that...:eek:
 

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yay...yes I love this stuff! Thank you

So when you were teaching the bow...and at the moments when you would use a NRM...what was the dog doing? Offering the down right? To me, that signals hes confused as to what you want...if he straight up walked away...i would NRM that perhaps.

notice in my Tippy vid I ask for a paw after she refused to bark...and she gives it...so to me that signals the dog is confused...that they WANT to do things for you, but are lost. If she didn't give paw then I would also think about how many distractions there were...another thing in that vid were the number of distractions...I tried on the floor later...just me and her...and she got it right away.

I would, next time he "ignores" ask for som'thing he really really really knows and then see what he does. If he continues to engage you...then personally I would not use a NRM and would simply back up a step :)

does that help?

EDIT...for the record, I don't think they are not useful or bad...but like anything else, they have their right and wrong places :)

NRM used correctly...on a high drive, high confidence dog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk6bWoD5E0c


see how the dogs feelings are not "hurt" and the dog does not get frustrated. Its very easy for most people to use a NRM as a correction on accident, which is not the correct way.



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Discussion Starter #3
OK I am going to have to really watch...it's hard to tell if he's fooling around or genuinely confused ;)

I used NRMs' for the bow when he just layed right down or shook a paw but its hard to tell if he's messing around or confused or frustrated..you know?
 

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why would he mess around? lol he wants the reinforcer. So either your attention is reinforcing enough that he is repeating the "wrong" behaviors...or hes confused. ;) :)

keep in mind, since you are training with praise only, you have IMO chosen a harder path :), he probably doesn't have that fine line of undertstanding whats a reward and what isn't... vs a dog that either gets food or doesn't get food, or gets a toy/doesn't get a toy...which is very black and white...any words or eye contact you make probably is telling him hes on the right track. In your case you might want to be silent unless hes right, and look away if hes wrong. Make sence?



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Discussion Starter #5
why would he mess around? lol he wants the reinforcer. So either your attention is reinforcing enough that he is repeating the "wrong" behaviors...or hes confused. ;) :)
Touche ;) I guess we figure they feel the way we do-he seems to be 'joking' lol



keep in mind, since you are training with praise only, you have IMO chosen a harder path :), he probably doesn't have that fine line of undertstanding whats a reward and what isn't... vs a dog that either gets food or doesn't get food, or gets a toy/doesn't get a toy...which is very black and white...any words or eye contact you make probably is telling him hes on the right track. In your case you might want to be silent unless hes right, and look away if hes wrong. Make sence?

Totally-he works better for praise and Dave's doing some treat training...Ok
Heres what we're doing.

No treats for obedience-and to me that makes sense. we aren't bribing for you to behave, you just do and we praise for that.
Treats for tricks-tricks are different in some respects and work good for this -luring etc. as well, tricks aren't 'respectful' sooooo they can be taught with treats...Anyways my thoughts. ;)

Love the idea of looking away for wrong-THATS awesome!! :)

See like it's so easy to offer advice but when it's your dog -its so right to get outside opinoins...

I'd show you videos so you could input but you know....


BAH I am going ot have to break down and buy a crappy camera until xmas -I just know it ;)
 

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Touche ;) I guess we figure they feel the way we do-he seems to be 'joking' lol






Totally-he works better for praise and Dave's doing some treat training...Ok
Heres what we're doing.

No treats for obedience-and to me that makes sense. we aren't bribing for you to behave, you just do and we praise for that.
Treats for tricks-tricks are different in some respects and work good for this -luring etc. as well, tricks aren't 'respectful' sooooo they can be taught with treats...Anyways my thoughts.
;)

Love the idea of looking away for wrong-THATS awesome!! :)

See like it's so easy to offer advice but when it's your dog -its so right to get outside opinoins...

I'd show you videos so you could input but you know....


BAH I am going ot have to break down and buy a crappy camera until xmas -I just know it ;)
i hope i'm not bugging you by piping in, and i'm not trying to convince you to use food as your reward, whatever motivates your dog to learn the fastest is the best reinforcer...i'm just throwing this in there, from my experience. i used to think like this too, but i wonder, does mikey (or any animal) know the difference between a behavior that is a trick and a behavior that is considered obedience? food doesn't have to be used as a lure, and it is only bait/bribe when it is used as a lure....
crios thread on training with food explains it better than i do, and the thread on targeting gets started on using a target instead of a lure...

hope i didn't annoy you:)



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Discussion Starter #7
Totally-and you know what-I *never* trained anything before without it ;) With any animal ;) Mikey just seems to get stumped learning with food. Once he gets something we use treats, but to learn a new trick. I spent months on roll over with him....we finally taught it without treats and now he does it for treats...but learning with treats was confusing for him.

I know we're not doing anything wrong because I've always taught with treats, and trained MANY animals with them.
For instance, Mandy can answere the telephone-both gettting it ''off the hook' and 'talking' into it. Plays the guitar and sings...
I CAN train :p
But for Mikey to 'learn' something new-no treats or he won't get it =what a goof!!

And NO!!! you did not annoy me at all :p So glad someone is up late with me :) LoL
 

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Totally-and you know what-I *never* trained anything before without it ;) With any animal ;) Mikey just seems to get stumped learning with food. Once he gets something we use treats, but to learn a new trick. I spent months on roll over with him....we finally taught it without treats and now he does it for treats...but learning with treats was confusing for him.

I know we're not doing anything wrong because I've always taught with treats, and trained MANY animals with them.
For instance, Mandy can answere the telephone-both gettting it ''off the hook' and 'talking' into it. Plays the guitar and sings...
I CAN train :p
But for Mikey to 'learn' something new-no treats or he won't get it =what a goof!!

And NO!!! you did not annoy me at all :p So glad someone is up late with me :) LoL
of course i'm up late, it's saturday night and i have nothing else to do:p
lol...i had a homework assignment due tonight too, so i kept popping on here to see if anyone else was posting:D

i'm not saying that you can't train, i know you can, i'm just curious about what you are saying here:
No treats for obedience-and to me that makes sense. we aren't bribing for you to behave, you just do and we praise for that.
Treats for tricks-tricks are different in some respects and work good for this -luring etc. as well, tricks aren't 'respectful' sooooo they can be taught with treats...Anyways my thoughts.
i just don't think that the dog knows the difference between something that you ask him to do for obedience and something that you consider a trick...if the dog won't do the behavior w/o food, then the food was used as lure, and the lure wasn't faded out properly....
for you and mikey, obviously, praise is working better as a reward, and that is great that he loves praise that much....i've worked with animals that aren't motivated by food whatsoever.....i worked with a cockatoo who in the first place wouldn't do anything for you if he didn't like you, and then would only do it for scratches.....sometimes i use a toy/play when i am training clover....the thing is, finding the right reward for the animal right.....i mean look at service dogs that assist the disabled...lots of the things they are trained to do are also "tricks" like fetching you a beer or taking off your socks or closing/opening doors...etc....i think the real challenge and difference between training obedience and training tricks is in the "proofing" of the behavior, how many situations you can rely on your dog to respond in etc, and with how many distractions....the process of training through all of those is what will teach the dog when he really really has to listen, way more than what you used as a reward ....sorry, i rambled:eek:, but i'll stop now, not trying to take over your thread or anything, and you were talking about NRMs...



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Discussion Starter #9
NAW!! That's what I love about this forum....it's OT but not really right? We're OT but chatting. I like other perspectives. :)

Mikey works real well for praise, and seems to work more for praise then treats. Though he goes bonkers for treats-and it confuses him-he works best for praise.....


Saturday night-I KNOW!! LOL Dave is such a baby in bed by midnight at the latest *sigh* He even bought a ps3 and metal gear solid 4 tonight-in bed by midnight *rolls eyes* I am older then he is-what a baby!!
 

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i just don't think that the dog knows the difference between something that you ask him to do for obedience and something that you consider a trick
Bingo.;)


as far as bribing with food...I don't bribe with food, and none of the people using food correctly are bribing. Food is a reward, just like the praise you are using, if the dog is fixating on it then som'thing isn't right. Forgive me if that hits a soft spot, because its som'thing compulsion trainers always use to debunk training with food. Bad trainers bribe, good trainers reward and they always lump us together.

As far as him not working for food, well, every organism on the planet that eats WILL work for food. Its a primary reinforcer...Som' may need to be a little hungrier, som' might need high value food...but they all will do it.

I think it was Skinner who conditioned pigeons to tap a lever for food, once the bird knew that.. they were given free food with the option of still pecking the lever to EARN food....every, single, bird still chose to earn the food.

but yes, if praise is working for you go for it, the dog chooses the reinforcer, not us :)

videos would be uber helpful.



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Discussion Starter #11
i just don't think that the dog knows the difference between something that you ask him to do for obedience and something that you consider a trick Bingo.;)
I see what your saying but I disagree...Like-obedience-we Expect him to be obedient. I.E. Wait at the door, not rush through. Not beg at dinner. Heel nicely. Not jump up on strangers. Go inot the car nicely etc.
I argue that we all 'no treat train' obedience in some respect. You don't walk around with treats and a clicker 24/7 right? So these aspect, obedience daily-I believe should be taught with no treats.


As far as him not working for food, well, every organism on the planet that eats WILL work for food. Its a primary reinforcer...Som' may need to be a little hungrier, som' might need high value food...but they all will do it.
He will work for food...He just gets too excited and upset, and doesn't pay attention. He forgets how to 'sit' when food is involved ;)
And it's not the treat we're using I don't think. It could be a dry cookie he normally won't bother with, roll over or duck jerky-doesn't matter if it's a high value treat or a low value treat. He will work for food, it's just frustratingly slow to do so, because he gets sooo focused on the treat and doesn't really listen to what your asking.

Totally the opposite of Mandy-she won't listen until she knows you have something. She's deaf, and with four cookies I taught her 'leave it' in five minutes last week.

I wish I could video...I think I may have to buy a new camera-can't take it!!
 

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So these aspect, obedience daily-I believe should be taught with no treats.
its not about the dog getting a treat everytime (which I don't do anyway, I fade them, then do away with them) its about creating a strong emotion and memory with the command...ever smell som'thing that reminds you of grandmas cookies...or see som'thing that reminds you of the bliss of childhood? compare those emotions with the memory of finding a penny on the ground...both are good events...but one left a stronger inpression on you.....Food works the same way. We don't need a reward for using the toilet as adults...but as kids our parents had to throw a party. Same idea, big reward, behavior sticks better.

You will get a stronger behavior if you used a better reward...regardless of if you continue to use that reward. This is why recall is often taught with chicken. The brain "wires" different for better things.

not trying to pick on you, pleas don't take it that way, but I think you are going to reach a point where you are going to dead end, or have to use corrections...all the "praise" trainers I know of always have to result to corrections...praise without corrections will not get a dog past crittering, and heavy distractions.

You don't walk around with treats and a clicker 24/7 right?
No, but I use "yes" as a marker, so in a way Iam always clicker training...its the technique of using a marker, not the actual clicker, that is magical.

My dogs are obediant whether I have treats or not, since I have not used them as bribes.

He just gets too excited and upset, and doesn't pay attention. He forgets how to 'sit' when food is involved
OH no that means he is paying attention...just not to you, not the way you like. That means you have the ultimate food driven dog that just needs impulse control training. He does not understand that he has to go through you to get rewarded, so he become frustrated. this is easily fixed with training. also if he is getting THAT excited you are showing him the food, or otherwise letting him know its there, ...put it in your pocket when hes not looking and reward when hes ignoring you. You can eventually train with treats in view (you might notice that in som' of my vids) but those treats are on permanent "leave it" and the dog knows they are only accessable through me. Not som'thing you can do at first.

If he is "forgetting" sit that just proves that praise isn't enough a reinforcer for him to work under distraction (food). If a dog biscuit does that...what happens if you put a turkey on the floor? I know what mine will do ;)

get what Iam saying?:) :) :)



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That means you have the ultimate food driven dog that just needs impulse control training. He does not understand that he has to go through you to get rewarded, so he become frustrated
Pretty sure you hit the nail on the head!! THAT seems to be exactly where his head is!!

He was in a shelter his whole two years, and he didn't seem to know 'sit' so I doubt he 'gets' that you know?
 

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God, he was in a shelter TWO YEARS?!...holy cow.

Hand feeding meals are awesome to teach the dog that YOU provide the food, not that it just appears.

But yes, its som'thing they don't automatically understand, but catch onto easy. Its like there is food behind glass, and the dog has to press a lever to get the food...but the dog doesn't know it yet...until he figures out the lever, he will be frustrated, and maybe excited he can see the food...once he figures out the lever, he'll chill out. If he can't figure out the lever...he'll give up. :)



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I struggled with the training with treats vs. no treats for a long time, as I started training when I was 12, when the school of thought was that you didn't obedience train for treats or the dog would never work for you without them. This has obviously been dis-proven, but I have since seen so many other people struggle with it...the problem is humans ASSUME that treats are a bribe, or a money transaction, so no treats, no behavior, and they never phase the food out. I've watched many friends show me their "trained" dog, whom they only expect to sit or down or whatever, when they've got treats in their hand. That's NOT what it is, it's not a business transaction, it's a COMMUNICATION tool to help the dog understand what behavior you want/need. They don't understand language, but food is the universal communicator. Once they understand what you want, then you phase the food out and they work for you because they know what you want/is expected. They're dogs and they've been bred to work for us for countless generations. Praise is much more ambiguous in terms of communication, we praise them for all kinds of things, for being there when we get home, when we're happy, when we're sad (which has nothing to do with the dog's behavior) so it's harder for dogs to get praise as a communication tool. Harder, but obviously not impossible, I trained a number of dogs this way, and it does depend somewhat on the dog, but food is faster and easier.
 

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God, he was in a shelter TWO YEARS?!...holy cow.
He was born in the shelter, and besides 3-4 'stints' of adoption where he was adopted and returned-he's been in the shelter for his whole life :( :(

Hand feeding meals are awesome to teach the dog that YOU provide the food
I did hand feed a lot to start, he was so excited to be home, and following us around, he wouldn't eat. So I sat down and hand fed him his food. What's the next step? LOL


I struggled with the training with treats vs. no treats for a long time, as I started training when I was 12, when the school of thought was that you didn't obedience train for treats or the dog would never work for you without them. This has obviously been dis-proven, but I have since seen so many other people struggle with it...the problem is humans ASSUME that treats are a bribe, or a money transaction, so no treats, no behavior, and they never phase the food out. I've watched many friends show me their "trained" dog, whom they only expect to sit or down or whatever, when they've got treats in their hand. That's NOT what it is, it's not a business transaction, it's a COMMUNICATION tool to help the dog understand what behavior you want/need. They don't understand language, but food is the universal communicator. Once they understand what you want, then you phase the food out and they work for you because they know what you want/is expected. They're dogs and they've been bred to work for us for countless generations. Praise is much more ambiguous in terms of communication, we praise them for all kinds of things, for being there when we get home, when we're happy, when we're sad (which has nothing to do with the dog's behavior) so it's harder for dogs to get praise as a communication tool. Harder, but obviously not impossible, I trained a number of dogs this way, and it does depend somewhat on the dog, but food is faster and easier.
Thanks for your input :) :) I'm still struglling, more so with do we use NRM's if we are training (I guess regardless of treats or no treats) and I'm on the fence with treats. On the one hand-it's all I've ever used.

On the other-our trainer uses no treats, and I've seen what she can do (dog park full of strangers, and free clinic-everyone's dog was doing 'tracking' and 'agility' with no treats. She'd never worked with these people or these dogs before, and the dogs were ALL working hard for praise, and everyone was enjoying themselves.) So it's a toss up for me right now ;)
 

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well put Ellen :)

I did hand feed a lot to start, he was so excited to be home, and following us around, he wouldn't eat. So I sat down and hand fed him his food. What's the next step? LOL
start to wait for behaviors (not asking)...simple stuff....like I will wait until they lay down...then feed, feed, feed...if they stand, I stop.. also play doggy zen and its yer choice with them.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RallyJudge#p/u/30/WrRrp1QYYqA

Make sure you don't reach for the food until AFTER they do som'thing...if you reach...thats a bribe...best way to prevent yourself from doing this is to put the bowl on the table...and walk away from it...that way its OBVIOUS if you are going to reach, if the dog is going to fixate...or whatever.

On the other-our trainer uses no treats, and I've seen what she can do (dog park full of strangers, and free clinic-everyone's dog was doing 'tracking' and 'agility' with no treats. She'd never worked with these people or these dogs before, and the dogs were ALL working hard for praise, and everyone was enjoying themselves.) So it's a toss up for me right now ;)
forgive me for being presumptuous....but what you are likely NOT seeing is the corrections used in the learning phase during distractions to make the dog the way he is now... either that or it took her an eternity to get the dog where it is...OR shes just plain beat-the-odds lucky....but anyway...I guess the first part, as its the most likely. Iam sorry no amount of praise is going to get an average guardian breed, scenthound, or sighthound to work off leash around high distraction IMO.

What breed is she using? And next time shes showing off ask what her reaction would be to her dog breaking its stay and running off....you'll get your answer then.


another thing, if your NRM gets any reaction other than the dog immediately trying another behavior...that means the dog views it as a correction. NRM are meant to be neutral, if you are going UH UH, or anything louder than your normal voice...its a verbal correction....when I use them I say "nope" and its normal volume.

EDIT: maybe I misunderstood...working her dog or the classes dogs? Are they on leash?



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Discussion Starter #18
forgive me for being presumptuous....but what you are likely NOT seeing is the corrections used in the learning phase during distractions to make the dog the way he is now... either that or it took her an eternity to get the dog where it is...OR shes just plain beat-the-odds lucky....but anyway...I guess the first part, as its the most likely. Iam sorry no amount of praise is going to get an average guardian breed, scenthound, or sighthound to work around high distraction IMO.

What breed is she using?
That's the thing-its our dogs, and dogs that were just at the park with owners who wanted to participate ;) She didn't demonstrate with any dog-just worked with our dogs-there was only two of from her class the other participants just happened to be at the dog park and joined in.

She only showed us one of her dogs -he came to class with her one evening because her partner wasn't home that night. He's an OLD dog who came to her a year ago, heniz 57 from the pound (she has an animal control friend who couldnt' put him down and brought him to her) he's awesome and she let a little girl who's mom was in the class work with him for her to learn.

And she trained like that in all our classes-six young male does were in teh class, all working with distrations (also beef jerky on the floor in several places) and not being corrected or treated.

She does use corrections way later-like when they pause after being asked to do something-for instance, long line recall-you call (and after they've done the behavior a number of times and you know they are just not doing it, not that they don't understand) you say "no" and reel them in with the line.
 

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And she trained like that in all our classes-six young male does were in teh class, all working with distrations (also beef jerky on the floor in several places) and not being corrected or treated.

on leash or off leash? ;) any dog can handle this on leash.



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Both-on leash at first and then off. IN class we worked off leash after the first few classes. They had to ignore the beef jerky both when working and after class when playing -and they did :) :)

At the park-we worked on leash at first, but everyone was working off leash after a few tries :) It was really neat-I think she's a great trainer :)
 
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