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Discussion Starter #1
So I was wondering if there is any basis on a line in Kazan the Wolfdog specificly chapter 17 page 101 where it says "His eyes were wide apart, with a little red in the lower corners. The forest people know what to expect of husky pups who early develop that drop of red. It Iis a warning that they are born of the wild and that their mothers, or fathers, are of the savage hunt-packs." is there any truth in that line?
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it's piffle.

Was this book written during the Jack London / 'Call of the Wild' era?
sounds like it. // Yup, 1914, sequel in 1917. :thumbsup: Curwood was born a mere 13 years after the end of the Civil War. // The Klondike gold-rush only ended in 1899.

1880 to 1920 / 30 was a period when the wild was romanticized, brute force was glorified, & "real men" didn't quite drag their wimmen around by the hair, but it was close. :huh: :eyeroll: That was the same time frame when movie-Indians were heroes but were played by white actors, & genuine tribal members lived in abject poverty a few hours outside Hollywood.

The book "Freckles" was another of the untamed man genre,
Freckles (novel) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freckles_(novel)
Freckles is a novel written by the American writer & naturalist, Gene Stratton-Porter... primarily set in the Limberlost Swamp area of Indiana, with brief scenes ...

...& EUGENICS got its start during this period, culminating in Hitler's decision to eradicate "sickly" races, which included gays, Gypsy / Romany ppls, Jews, intellectuals of all ethnic groups, & many contemporary artists.

The Rez is still a vast spread of many miles of poor country, no matter what tribe we're talking about - some things have not changed, even in the 21st century.
Only the Iriquois & Cherokee have livable chunks of land -- the Western tribes are shoved onto desert areas with few resources EXCEPT mining or oil [& that's usually in the hands & wallets of white folks].
_______________________________________________


Wolf-hybrids are a sad fact - approx 20,000 are bred every year; they are not good pets, being neither domesticated nor able to be released; they are trapped in limbo.
They're leggy in proportion to their body length, leaner, have less-sprung ribcages & flatter ribs, larger backskulls, bigger teeth than domestic dogs, & may have lighter eyes. They may or may not have wolf markings - spectacles, a chevron over the caudal gland on the tail's upper surface, hackling on the shoulder cape, mascara round the eyes, etc.

Hybrids are not stranger-tolerant, & the 50/50-or-more wolf versions are often only 'tame' with ppl they know well; IOW, the person/s who raised them from pups. They don't re-home well.
When puberty hits, they often become uncontrollable, as they may react with teeth to attempts to MAKE THEM do what they don't want to do.

I actually used the CDC's dog-bite stats one year, & did the math - hybrids are ELEVEN TIMES more likely to bite than a dog of any breed or mix [we're talking bites that require medical attn, not a simple puncture].
Many deaths of hybrid-keepers have occurred; one woman in her 50s died in her hybrids' pen & was not found for 3 days - she'd owned hybrids for over 20 years, & insisted they "loved" her. :( Hybrids have also killed children & non-family adults.

they are escape artists, & can go over, under, or thru fences that would stop a dog cold. They can excavate under a brick wall in a single night; many states have specific types of enclosures that hybrids must be kept in, with poured concrete floors, concrete-set posts, 8-ft cyclone fence, & a cyclone-fence mesh roof.

they have been known to leap up & grab a ceiling fan to pull it down, when left home alone; the extent of damage they can do to a house has to be seen, to be believed.
The differences between wolves & dogs are not in their genes; they're in their behavior. // Dog pups are born wired to connect to ppl, they WANT to attach to us; wolves have no such social impulse toward humans, are far-more self-willed & independent at an early age, & do not solicit human help when they're unable to solve a problem.
Dogs co-evolved with humans; they're the only species known so far who read human faces left to right, as humans do - for clues to our emotional state, from our micro-expressions.

I wish we had a Federal law that banned the cross-breeding of wolves & dogs; hybrids are lost creatures, with no place to belong.
Every good sanctuary is stuffed full, with a waiting list; nobody wants Ur 2 to 3-YO, intact, stranger-suspicious, hard to handle, untrusting, self-willed, determined, PITA hybrid. :(
In Virginia, I'd get an average of 2 phone calls a year, looking for a place to "put" their unwanted hybrid. // Thank God, Mass requires permits & hybrids are "research-only" status - no pet owners!

The grandfather clause for "pet" hybrids in Mass dates to 1994 - it's extremely unlikely any hybrid from 23 years ago is still alive.
- terry
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Wow thanks for the great reply and i agree with the hybrids(dog/wolf or tiger/lion they need to stop happening all it results in is a messed up animal and yes wolves are beautiful but i see no reason to have a hybrid with 2 different instincts they want to follow all it creates is confusion
 

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here are some pix...

BTW, i'm sorry about the wrong term, above - i was in a hurry B4 catching the T downtown for work, & typed 'mascara' when i meant EYELINER,
:lol:

I can't caption the individual photos; this Forum doesn't let me insert photos in the body of the post, they all go on the end.
I'll tag who is what in my next post... ;)


 

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OK! :)
Taking them in turn, TOP LEFT is a 50 / 50 wolf - dog hybrid male; his foreface with its sharp tapering muzzle & B-I-G backskull is the giveaway; lying down, i can't assess his length of leg or straight legs.

The paws on wolves & hybrids often look oversize - northern wolves run 'over' snow rather than thru it, while their sharp-hooved or heavy prey [elk, deer, caribou, moose, bison...] must power THRU the snow, as their sharp hooves & thin legs or sheer mass take them deep into the drifts, sucking their energy.

 

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Top Row, center:
50 / 50 Male on left, probly a GSD-hybrid; 75% wolf hybrid F on right.
Note her legs' length relative to her chest depth, & the very straight bone of her forelegs.

His are both shorter relative to his chest depth, & thicker thru, but the oversized paws, narrow taper of muzzle, breadth of backskull, & slightly slanted triangular eyes are all wolf-traits, as are his hairy ears' interior - tho NOT ALL hybrids have hairy ears. Some are as slick as a smooth-coated GSD's inner ears.

 

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Top row, Right:
75% wolf x blue long-haired GSD, male.

Note sharp taper of foreface, BIG backskull, slanted triangular eyes, excessively straight forelegs & relative length of legs, lack of spring in ribcage.

 

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Middle row, LEFT -
50 /50 wolf hybrid, male - note where his tail is: tucked under his belly.
He's still covered in grooming tracks from a pin-brush, but he's very uncomfortable with the camera staring at him. :(

Also look at the size of the CHAIN he's on:
ranchers & farmers call that hefty linkage either "calf chain" or "tow chain", for obvious reasons - U can secure a 200# calf with that, or tow a 1/2-ton car or 1-ton truck easily. It's welded steel. :(
Way-too heavy for any dog, hybrid, hyena, what-have-U.

 

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Middle row, CENTER -
50 / 50, wolf x Siberian Husky, F

Notice that she's hard-eyed & ticked off; she has a really-filthy rawhide 'bone' in her mouth, & she's growling at the photographer. // Charming. :eek:

Also note extra-straight, extra-long legs; sharply-tapered foreface; ribs less sprung & more slab-sided; triangular eyes on a slant.

EAR POSITION: back & slightly outward; uncertain, but not happy. Irked.

 

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Middle row, RIGHT -
50 / 50 hybrid, wolf x Malemute, M

this one's wearing a very subtle ugly face: his eyes are squinted but not with pleasure or welcome; he has a frown between & above his eyes, his upper LIP is lifted which would reveal his incisors & gums, if he'd lift his head.
His muzzle is wrinkled by tension, he's got a Dead-Eyed D!ck stare going direct to the camera lens, & his whiskers are forward, tongue is RETRACTED behind his teeth [in preparation to bite], & his ears are back & turned outward, with his head lowered & jaw thrust forward.

TRY ThaT:
lower Ur head, stick yer chin forward, lift yer upper lip, give a hard level stare.
How does it feel, emotionally & physically?


 

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bottom row:
75% wolf hybrid.

Note the extremely straight PROFILE of his face - no stop.
Slanted triangular eyes, extremely leggy, super-straight forelegs, enormous paws, slab-sided ribs, longer than usual guard hairs with slick thin summer-weight undercoat.

His ears are hairy inside; he also carries his head about level with his spine - dogs carry their heads higher; wolves save energy by carrying their heads low, unless they are making a social comment, or peering at something distant.

 

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Discussion Starter #12
Sheesh you work fast XD with the pics and what to look for thanks they are super pretty animals though i wouldnt want to own a hybrid/by it from a breeder i wouldnt be opposed to rescuing one its the same for hyrbid cats like Bengals/Chausies/Savannahs they face the same problems like the wolf hybrids but lesser known since they are a cat and not a dog
Hope you dont mind all the links i figured i might try to educate whoever looks at this thread be it an hour from now or a few months

https://bigcatrescue.org/liger-facts/
https://bigcatrescue.org/hybrid-facts/
https://www.thedodo.com/why-think-twice-before-buy-bengal-cat-1988316082.html
First-hand stories from hybrid cat owners - The Wildcat Sanctuary
 

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I have a story about a wildcat...

... not a hybrid, a 100% wild cat.

I was on the bus to Lexington for my weekend shift, & got into a convo with a local woman who was headed home with her son.
We were talking about wildlife & human impacts, & she told me the most-amazing story.

She was working at a zoo at the time, with the big cats, & the zoo got a call to "pick-up a wild cat" from the airport - confiscated from some dingbat, who'd smuggled him in on a private jet. She was delegated to fetch the critter, being lowest ranked. She had no idea what to expect.
Private individuals can't own wildlife in Mass - hence he was snatched as soon as he was found.
She arrived & was shown a crate that would hold a medium-large dog - in it was a cat that resembled a bobcat, but without dapples or tabby markings.

She had help to load him in the van, drove him to the exotic vet's, & again got help to carry the crate level into an exam room. // The cat was already the size of a BIG adult housecat in body, with longer legs, but was spozedly a 12-WO kitten.
The vet had said over the phone that she'd slip him in between appts, for a wellness check B4 he went into quarantine, since he'd evaded any health-checks when he entered the country. // The vet came in accompanied by a tech, who proceeded to coo over the kitten. The vet said she was going to knock him out for the exam, & the tech said, "I'm sure i can handle him, he won't hurt me...", & opened the crate to get him out.
The cat ripped her arm from shoulder to wrist in one swipe - it took 90 stitches to close. // The vet knocked the kitten out with a dart on a stick, examined him, pronounced him apparently healthy & free of external parasites, dosed him with a wormer, & he was off to the zoo.

He was I-D'ed as an African Golden Cat, spent 6-weeks in quarantine, developed no illness, & they had nowhere to put him - no exhibit, no other zoo wanted him from an unknown source. // She got a permit, & took him home.

More than 10-years later, he's long-since neutered, weighs 40#, is able to be free in her house, but cannot be handled or approached by strangers; he still gets knocked-out for any vet work. She can handle him, as can her son - so long as they don't do anything he dislikes; they can pet him, clean his ears if he's feeling co-operative, pick him up, but that's about it. He's never allowed outside b/c of the risk he'll escape - he can leap 8-ft vertically.

He ignores the household cats - she runs a domestic-cat rescue. He prefers the dog, a grade Lab from a shelter that he plays with.
She's not sure how long he'll live; he's 12 now, but his kidneys are doing fine - he gets bloodwork done twice a year.


 

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To the original question, I read Kazan when I was a boy, along with Call of the Wild and White Fang.

To be honest, neither Curwood nor London knew anything about dogs or wolves. They just collected some stories from miners and trappers, and made stuff up. London's best work was about subjects that he knew about - the plight of the poor in particular.

Try to get ahold of Never Cry Wolf, by Farley Mowat, and The Custer Wolf by Roger Caras. They were both written in the '60s and are dated now, but still insightful.
 

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Curwood & London were both ignorant of wolves...

... but Curwood knew more about nature in general - London had more knowledge of human behavior than of animals or ecology.

If U read the synopsis, Curwood has Kazan leave his parents, "ready to take care of himself", after just a few months - vs the reality of young wolves, who stay with their parents & help rear the next litter or two, learning to feed their future pups by feeding younger sibs, to stalk & hunt co-operatively, to defend a territory, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazan_(novel)

Curwood was an environmentalist, conservationist, & naturalist - he was a hunter in his youth, but changed his mind & his behavior as an adult. He knew little about wolf behavior, but he did know something of wild country & wildlife, & valued them for themselves, not as resources to be exploited.

It's interesting that the much-lauded film "from the POV of the bear", The Bear, made by Disney, was based on Curwood's 'The Grizzly King' - i saw it, & thot the entire premise was B-S... a MALE grizzly WITH AN INJURED FOOT, 'adopts' & tolerates a cub?!? - he's much-more likely to kill a cub than act like a tolerant uncle; male bears, grizz & brown or polar bears, are the greatest threat to cubs with their mothers, aside from starvation.
[Male black bears are a lot less likely to kill cubs than grizz, brown, & sea-bears.]
I thot the scenery was gorgeous, but the plot line was ridiculous. :p

London *did* know the Klondike & the harsh conditions there; he nearly died of scurvy due to malnutrition, this was B4 medical science quite understood the function of essential dietary nutrients [medical experiments were still being conducted on black men in Southern prison camps, using impoverished diets to create disease. :( ].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_London

I didn't know that London was most-likely illegitimate, & that his biological father, when London discovered his existence & wrote to him at 21-YO, disowned him & also claimed that he couldn't be his sire, as he was impotent; moreover, he said that London's mother had sexual relations with other men while they lived together.
Wm Cheney was an astrologer & wrote in his memoirs that Flora Wellman, London's mother, was "his wife". Moreover, he denied that he ever told her to abort the pregnancy - which she said made her attempt suicide [she shot herself; was hurt, but survived].
Cheney was - IMentirely-unbiasedOpinion - a real barsteward, blackening his [possibly common-law] wife's reputation & denying his fatherhood all in the same casual fashion. [Thank God, we have DNA tests now.]
All the city records were destroyed in the Great Fire of 1906, so any marriage recorded is lost to hearsay.

London completed grade school [6th grade], & went to work at just 13; he borrowed money from the black woman who raised him in infancy to escape near-slavery in the cannery, buying a sloop, & becoming an oyster-pirate. // A few months later, his ship irreparably damaged, he joined the Calif Fish Patrol. // 3 years later, he signed onto a sealer, bound for Japan.

On his return, the 'Panic of '93' was on, & work was scarce, as was money. His struggles as a laborer, plus time spent traveling the U-S as a hobo, began his lifelong devotion to workers' rights, & started him toward socialism.

He returned to Oakland & began high-school at 17; he started college at Berkley, but had to drop out & never graduated. // In July 1897, aged 21, he went to the Klondike with his brother-in-law & saw firsthand the brawling, grasping, gold-crazy, boom & bust. His Dawson landlords were college grads, & often discussed politics, economics, & social issues.
He returned to Calif at 22, & began working to "sell his brain" - as a writer.

I've never read his social commentary fiction. // The part of London that most disappoints me is his attitude toward women, & his belief in eugenics - but both were widespread & fervent, at the time. He certainly wasn't alone in them!
His 1st wife was a friend, not a love-match, & altho they had children, he thot nothing of patronizing brothels; she was understandably terrified of getting venereal diseases. // Losing one's mind from syphilis would be a horror.

Eugenics - a wrong-headed extension of Darwin & evolutionary theory - promoted the culling of 'weak' or unhealthy humans from the breeding popn; the problem is, evolution is an unfettered natural process. Eugenics is often just racism in fancy dress. :( It was widely promoted; involuntary sterilizations of black women & mentally retarded women or poor women, continued in backward Virginia thru the 1960s & into the early-70s.
IIRC, Virginia's state-run involuntary hysterectomies or ovariectomies only stopped in 1972.

- terry


 

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Leashed, you would particularly enjoy Caras' animal point of view books, such as The Monarch of Deadman Bay or The Custer Wolf. He never anthropomorphized or idealized his animal protagonists, or even gave them names.

They were written 50 years ago, and he was faithful to the knowledge base that we had at the time. When he had to describe a behavior or characteristic that wasn't understood, he didn't try to guess at it or make anything up, he just left it unexplained. Very honest, and sometimes brutal, writing.
 
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