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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I've always been torn because I don't want to support the "designer dog" trend, but at the same time, I have to admit I really like some of these "designer breeds" such as "Goldendoodles" (Golden Poodle), "Mini Saint Bernards" (Cocker Spaniel Saint Bernard), and "Chiweenies" (Chihuahua Dachshund). The issue that first comes up in my mind is that the breeders of these dogs are usually in it for the money. But for the breeders who truly wish to perfect the "Goldendoodle"...is that wrong? Is it wrong to produce to a "breed" of dog that a lot of people desire? Or to create/breed or buy a breed such as the Tamaskan or Miniature American Shepherd that are considered to be developing breeds? Isn't that how our AKC breeds of today were developed? By crossing dogs with desirable traits to get a good mix of these traits? I know these dogs are technically mutts, but usually you cannot go to the local Humane Society and find a specific mix such as a Cocker Spaniel Saint Bernard mix puppy. Not that I'm in the market for a new dog, but out of curiosity, do you personally believe "designer dogs" are ethical? It is morally correct for people to breed "designer dogs" or for someone to buy one?
 

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I just feel that the breeding is done without thinking about what is best for the future dogs. I mean think about some of the mixes you gave and their breed problems. Both Goldens and Poodles are very smart, high energy dog. You are breeding 2 very high energy dogs to make a nuerotic dog. Chihuahua and dashound have a laundry list of medical problems between the 2 breeds, and what sounds normal about breeding a cocker spaniel (that have enough breed issues of their own) with a Saint Brenard? I think these breeders aren't doing what's best for the dogs, they are doing whats best for their pockets. They can sell puppies and make a pretty penny without having to invest anything into AKC or CKC registration.
 

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There are many "designer breeds" in shelters.:)

I volunteer with a shelter and we get them in all. the. time. especially puggles and poodle mixes.
<--- And actually if you take a take a little look at my avatar both were adopted from my local shelter. Dash is likely a purebred doberman (I also have a likely pure bred Min Pin from the shelter who is not in the picture) but Dexter (the white dog) is likely a scottie x poodle (a.k.a. scottie poo or scoodle) and was under a year when I adopted him. ;)

As for whether or not it's ethical to buy...
IMO no, it's not at least in the vast majority of cases. Typically breeders breeding these dogs are BYB's or commercial breeders/puppy mills. Neither do genetic and health testing (CERF, OFA, etc. which is far more than a health certificate issued by a vet), temperament testing, showing or competing, etc. Neither breed responsibly/ethically so IMO should not be supported.
 

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I would run away from a cocker spaniel x st bernard there are lots of health issues with both breeds and im guessing there are going to be some skeletal issues with that mix.

Im conflicted, I guess if there is proper health testing, socialisation, care for breeding stock and screening of owners going on then I don't hate the breeders but I doubt I would ever find a designer breeder that meets my criteria.

I just don't see the point in the doodles usually when people are looking for the characteristics which they find in these designer breeds can also be found in a lot of pures such as the poodles, the retrievers, havanese, tibetan terrier ect.

I saw a picture of a cockapoo and a tibetan terrier next to each other they were both in short clips and looked very similar.

same with pure standard poodles in a teddy bear clip they look rather similar to doodles which is probably because doodles are half poodles!

As a former labrador owner and a poodle enthusiast (hopefully future owner) I don't see the reason to mix those. they do have similar although not identical personalities and if you can't stand the shedding of a retriever go with a standard poodle. I really don't understand what the labrador or golden is suppose to add to that breed and also adding a poodle won't magically leave a dog with a non shedding coat and a golden temperament. You might get a shedding dog with a poodle temperament.

A common thing that people say is that they don't like poodles, I still can't figure out why they are then getting a poodle mix...

I think what would make me ok with a designer breeder is if the breeder could explain to me their breeding goal. You mentioned that yes there are some breeds who are being developed and most breeds were at one point developed from mixes. The problem I have is that a lot of these breeders goal are just to breed. I dislike that in pure breeders as well I need more than simple testing and nice dogs, I want a passion for the breed that is complimented by ever expanding knowledge.

I want the breeder to want to leave the breed in a better condition than they found it in.

I have soften my stance I figure as long as they treat their dogs with love and health is a priority then ok but I will never buy one. I find all I need in the pures from cuddly lap dogs to athletes all of whom are not crippled with hereditary disease.

I also find the word sheepadoodle hilarious but once again I don't see the point in mixing old english sheepdog with poodle.
 

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Also in my quest for a toy poodle breeder I've found that bad breeders are getting cleverer and they are getting better at disguising themselves as good breeders and will say anything to get a sale.
 
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Well, I've always been torn because I don't want to support the "designer dog" trend, but at the same time, I have to admit I really like some of these "designer breeds" such as "Goldendoodles" (Golden Poodle), "Mini Saint Bernards" (Cocker Spaniel Saint Bernard), and "Chiweenies" (Chihuahua Dachshund). The issue that first comes up in my mind is that the breeders of these dogs are usually in it for the money. But for the breeders who truly wish to perfect the "Goldendoodle"...is that wrong? Is it wrong to produce to a "breed" of dog that a lot of people desire? Or to create/breed or buy a breed such as the Tamaskan or Miniature American Shepherd that are considered to be developing breeds? Isn't that how our AKC breeds of today were developed? By crossing dogs with desirable traits to get a good mix of these traits? I know these dogs are technically mutts, but usually you cannot go to the local Humane Society and find a specific mix such as a Cocker Spaniel Saint Bernard mix puppy. Not that I'm in the market for a new dog, but out of curiosity, do you personally believe "designer dogs" are ethical? It is morally correct for people to breed "designer dogs" or for someone to buy one?
Comparing breeders who breed designer dogs to the people who developed current pure bred dogs is a stretch. A lot of research and time was put into most of the pure bred dogs we know today. Backyard breeders and puppy mills could care less about what they're "developing". They're doing it for the money because people such as yourself want a certain type of dog or they think they do.

I can understand that you find a certain mix cute but there are thousands of adorable dogs dying in shelters every single day. Fall in love with one of them. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
For me, it's the size or the look of the face that I like that is unique to the "designer breed", although I do agree that it would be better to look for a rescue--I agree with Kmes as far as poodle mixes in the shelter, oh my goodness... Sometimes I go just for fun to look at the different animals and every time there's a Mini Poodle mix or "Puggle". In my opinion, I feel that there's nothing wrong with breeding mixed dogs as long as, like Grabby was saying, you are putting time and effort into it. Such as the Tamaskan. I don't disagree with that because they are trying to create an entirely new breed, one that doesn't exist. From my understanding a wolf dog with no wolf, no husky stubbornness, and that is a good family dog. I wondered if it was moral because you seem some breeders who look like they put a lot of thought into their dogs--however, as Spotsonofbun was saying, they're probably just pulling the wool over my eyes. I think my main criticism of crossing just two breeds is that the puppies don't all meet a known standard (so a single litter could consist of several puppies that look like completely different breeds) so I guess there really wouldn't be a way to improve the breed because one puppy looks like a Dachshund, the other a Shih Tzu, yet another looks like an indeterminable terrier mix...and they're all from the same parents. Can't really improve that.
 

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We get designer breeds in the rescue I volunteer with all the time, too -- probably a quarter of the dogs are some sort of designer mix. You get the same dog at the end of the day (probably no breed-specific health tests, parents of unremarkable lines) but instead of giving money to a BYB which encourages them to breed more, you're paying an adoption donation for a vetted, neutered, temperament-tested rescue who would have died otherwise.

There is no shortage of designer breeds or purebreds in shelters, even puppies, even uncommon colors, even non-shedding, even the gender you want.

And the idea of a "mini saint Bernard" is really distressing to me. Talk about a complete disregard for the long-term structural health of the puppies!
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These so called designer breeders are not trying to create a new breed, they want money.
Hey it's your choice, but I suggest you look through threads on this subject.
I hope that will change your mind.
 

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I own a miniature golden retriever. He is quite the popular dog, garnering compliments wherever we go. Lots of people love the look of a golden, but don't want that big a dog, don't want that kind of retrieving drive or don't want to deal with the undercoat, etc.

If someone were to start breeding to create more Kabotas, I wouldn't be against it IF they went about it like the Tamaskan people and had good homes for all puppies, took back all puppies if necessary, had a distinct, achievable goal in mind, created a governing body for breeders, tested and tracked for health issues, etc.

I haven't seen any doodle breeders doing any of that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
No, don't worry, I wouldn't buy one. Just wanted to see what everyone's opinion on it was! I know for a fact Petfinder is home to thousands of cute, ugly, funny looking, or adorable dogs, so if I were to get another dog, I'd be looking for one there because there are so many options and ways to specify age, breed, size, characteristics, whether or not they're good with cats, dogs, and children, etc and I think that's pretty fantastic to have all the information laid out right in front of you! Aside from the moral issues of backyard breeders, I think there is an argument against "designer dog" breeders on a shallow level--I wouldn't be willing to pay $25000 for a "Goldendoodle" when I could get one from the shelter for $200. However, despite all of this, I know for a fact there are people out there who WILL pay hundreds for a "designer dog" so I was interested in what their reasoning is. I assume it's because they think they're cute like I do. Honestly, the only reason I would personally not buy a "designer breed" is because I don't want to promote breeding for money. Of course, I also personally would not buy from an non reputable breeder for the exact same reason, so I don't think my reasoning is specific to "designer dogs". I think purebred backyard breeders are just as bad, really. I have to admit that if I wanted one, I would probably go buy a Tamaskan or Miniature American Shepherd. To me a developing breed is different than a designer breed, but that's my opinion! To answer my own question, I think it depends on why the person is breeding, not necessarily what they are breeding...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I agree Amaryllis! That's a to-the-point version of what I was attempting to write in my ramble lol. I have trouble getting to the quick.
 

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From what I've heard Tamaskans aren't all they're cracked up to be in that some breeders have definitely fibbed on the wolf with no wolf thing. It seems almost every breed bred to look like a wolf only not have wolf in them... actually has wolf in them.

That said, I have zero problems with cross breds and new breeds provided the breeders are responsible and honest. There are some out there!
 

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MAS have actually been around a long while but their registration history has been really convoluted with them even recently being registered as different breeds and still being cross bred with smaller aussies. Then they went through all the North American Shepherd business. I'm hoping now that they're AKC and settled on Miniature American shepherd that things will settle down.
 

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IF the breeder has done ALL the health checks on both parents (and that is NOT a short list for most of the breeds involved in these designer dogs).

IF the breeder has a POINT to the breeding, beyond "cute puppies that'll make me money" (you want to discuss how the current "purebreds" were created? There was a POINT and an end goal to the mixing)

IF the breeder has a full contract that includes care of the dogs and returning to the breeder if you ever decide you no longer want the dog

THEN I'd not have a problem with the breeder or buying of said "designer puppy".

But frankly, very very very very very few breeders of designer dogs fill that criteria......
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Ooo yikes I didn't know that about Tamaskans! That's a little scary. Or the MAS's, that's interesting to know. Out of curiosity, do you know how long they've been around? Good point about the puppies, Ruthcatrin. Come to think of think of it, "Goldendoodles" really don't have any advantage over Goldens or Poodles as far as temperament or functionality. It does seem to be based entirely on looks which, you're right, is not why a new breed is created.
 

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Good point about the puppies, Ruthcatrin. Come to think of think of it, "Goldendoodles" really don't have any advantage over Goldens or Poodles as far as temperament or functionality. It does seem to be based entirely on looks which, you're right, is not why a new breed is created.
I'd accept "looks" as a point if they were seriously attempting to create consistency in the looks and going beyond that F1 (purebred to purebred) cross to do so AND they met the rest of the criteria (there are several toy breeds today that were created just because someone wanted the "perfect companion" TBH). The thing is most of the "goldendoodle" breeders (for example, since you used them first) AREN'T attempting to create a consistent dog, and are only repeatedly breeding the same set of purebred dogs over and over to sell the pups.
 
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