[nosferatuzoddpup]

For the past two years or so I have had an emotional rollercoaster in my pursuit of a second dog. Some of you have seen my previous post as I am fairly new here. I fostered then adopted my pup Pixie almost three years ago. She is a min pin mix and overtime she developed horrible separation anxiety and was attacked by a Labrador several times (to avoid her being potentially killed, I picked her up and got bitten myself last time), this turned into reactivity. I have been working with a veterinarian behaviorist for two years now and also have been looking to add a second dog. Most likely a Doberman. I have done my due diligence and know that I may just not be the best fit person for a Doberman, have learned to look for reputable breeders and have gone to some club events (non-Doberman related). However, I still don't want to give up on this dream, just yet.

With all of the aforementioned issues and not having a house, I decided to put the search on hold. I do know I face a lot of challenges I will mention below.

While my behaviorist said we can introduce Pixie to a second dog, as I was able to slowly introduce her to my moms pup, she also admitted I will have to be very very careful in the training, management of environment, and have a detailed plan to avoid major pitfalls. Even then I would have a lot of obstacles working against me and she warned me I could go with the "best" breeder and still get a dog that may be predisposed to behavioral issues.

Another set of difficulties are Pixie's reactivity, separation anxiety, overall anxious behavior that could be taught to the second dog. A bigger dog not trained properly could easily harm Pixie. Doberman DCMs problem is quite heartbreaking and I would be depressed to lose a dog so soon. I am in the process of purchasing a house with a nice yards for Pixie and any future dogs but I am afraid I will fall short of providing both dogs with adequate environments. i.e. Pixie doesn't always love long walks, but a larger dog that I want to go hiking with more often probably would. Mental enrichment could help with this part, but there will still be a gap to fill in the exercise department.

This doesn't even account for the difficulty I already experience when trying to go out for a workday or when I need to go out without my pup and her situational medicine doesn't work.

I really don't want to abandon this dream, hence why I am coming here to learn if others have advice on how I could pull this off. My current mindset is thinking 1-2 years of preparation for this. My behaviorist suggested a great thing to do is get Pixie used to being around the dog I would like to have and see how that works. i.e. slowly counterconditioning, if possible, to being around Dobermans. I have found that most Doberman breeders and owners tend to lean heavily towards dominance theory and thus I think this would also be a hard battle.

 

[JoanneF]

It would undoubtedly mean a lot of work and it's great that you are putting so much thought into it.

A few random thoughts - how old is Pixie? Would you be bringing a youngster into a household with an older dog who might not appreciate the exuberance of a pup (on top of the other issues)?

Do you have a rescue centre nearby where you could work on desensitising Pixie with bigger dogs?

Do you have good backup? There are often people prepared to help out if you have a small dog, but two (and one of them pretty big) is another thing. What would you do if you were seriously incapacitated?

I don't want to throw cold water on your ideas and you are already being realistic, but it sounds like a big commitment.

 

[Chesterandfam]

This is a really tough question you are asking. I personally see this going one of two ways: you either end up with twice the work, twice the same problems and you wished you had waited, or Pixie ends up being able to depend on more than just you and your second dog can help with her problems (to some degree! Not a fix ofcourse).

We are doing behavior modification with Chester that is based largely on slow desensitization, and every once in a while we have a "social walk" to work on his social skills. In that time we've learned that Chester does a bit better when there is at least one same size or larger dog nearby that is calm. He literally has used it as a barrier before. In general dogs don't like to be alone, it's just that some cope just fine and others don't. A second dog may help her cope better if she bonds to it.
Thing is that dogs are individuals and this may work, or it might not do a thing for her. And you will also need a stable and calm dog, otherwise they just feed off each others emotions.

Seeing that you would like to get a puppy, there is a huge load of work that comes with that. Same as with some risks that have already been pointed out to you by the behaviorist. For example, if it were me. I would walk the puppy apart from Pixie for at least two years, and avoid as much social learning she can do from Pixie as possible. Except for situations where I know that Pixie copes just fine. Puppies have a lot of growing and developing to do, and having to navigate both the struggles you would have normally plus the extra caution you have to put in place to avoid it learning the "bad" things from Pixie is a huge commitment.

I'm sure you already know that though. So maybe you can try to find out for yourself if
1) you are even up for the challenge. Put together a day to day plan of the way you are going to live possibly for the coming two years. Keep in mind what caution you have to put in place to avoid negative social learning. If that seems like too much work, maybe it's better to realize this dream in the future.
2) getting another (stable) dog is going to enrich Pixies life or if she's going to hate it. Maybe you can do a trial run with a larger breed foster, or maybe a friend or relatives dog.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

It would undoubtedly mean a lot of work and it's great that you are putting so much thought into it.

A few random thoughts - how old is Pixie? Would you be bringing a youngster into a household with an older dog who might not appreciate the exuberance of a pup (on top of the other issues)?

Do you have a rescue centre nearby where you could work on desensitising Pixie with bigger dogs?

Do you have good backup? There are often people prepared to help out if you have a small dog, but two (and one of them pretty big) is another thing. What would you do if you were seriously incapacitated?

I don't want to throw cold water on your ideas and you are already being realistic, but it sounds like a big commitment.

Thanks for the help in brainstorming here! I definitely have not had the thought of who would help if I was incapacitated or passed away. It’s a rough questions to think and answer! My mom is always willing to watch Pixie but of course it’s just one small dog at the moment. My girlfriend helps me occasionally but it’s not someone I would trust with two dogs.
Pixie is 3Y3M old at the moment and the energy issue is one I’ve heard before. My moms dog never took puppy socialization classes so he constantly wants to play with her and she will play but they never know when to stop which concerns me (I have to separate them every minute or so).

I definitely have thought I should go with a different breed or rescue as the size difference is dangerous and again I’ve only interacted with one Doberman. I did meet a breeders cocker spaniel and loved her manners and the size difference was about 20 lbs from Pixie vs about 70 lbs if it was a Doberman.

 

[DogRun]

Another thing to be cautious about: dobermans have been bred to bond deeply with their handlers, but the shadow side of this is that they can often develop some separation issues or anxiety. If Pixie already shows signs of this, it might not be a good match. You could easily end up with two dogs with very different needs (walks, activities) that have trouble being separated from you. Two dogs with separation problems tend to exacerbate this particular challenge in each other. (I really like dobermans' personalities and how trainable their owner-orientation makes them, but this is something to be aware of.)

 

[Curls]

Bringing in a puppy is different from bringing in an adult dog. I would trust my senior dog with a small dog now, but he would have been far too rough with a toy breed when he was an adolescent. Puppies like to play. Puppies also aren't always terribly good about reading "back off" signals from adult dogs. Since Pixie is right there, they will quite naturally gravitate toward her as a potential playmate. A Doberman puppy will probably be larger than she is within a month or two of arriving at your house. She might find it very distressing to deal with a huge playful puppy, even more so than dealing with the arrival of a small breed puppy.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

This is a really tough question you are asking. I personally see this going one of two ways: you either end up with twice the work, twice the same problems and you wished you had waited, or Pixie ends up being able to depend on more than just you and your second dog can help with her problems (to some degree! Not a fix ofcourse).

We are doing behavior modification with Chester that is based largely on slow desensitization, and every once in a while we have a "social walk" to work on his social skills. In that time we've learned that Chester does a bit better when there is at least one same size or larger dog nearby that is calm. He literally has used it as a barrier before. In general dogs don't like to be alone, it's just that some cope just fine and others don't. A second dog may help her cope better if she bonds to it.
Thing is that dogs are individuals and this may work, or it might not do a thing for her. And you will also need a stable and calm dog, otherwise they just feed off each others emotions.

Seeing that you would like to get a puppy, there is a huge load of work that comes with that. Same as with some risks that have already been pointed out to you by the behaviorist. For example, if it were me. I would walk the puppy apart from Pixie for at least two years, and avoid as much social learning she can do from Pixie as possible. Except for situations where I know that Pixie copes just fine. Puppies have a lot of growing and developing to do, and having to navigate both the struggles you would have normally plus the extra caution you have to put in place to avoid it learning the "bad" things from Pixie is a huge commitment.

I'm sure you already know that though. So maybe you can try to find out for yourself if
1) you are even up for the challenge. Put together a day to day plan of the way you are going to live possibly for the coming two years. Keep in mind what caution you have to put in place to avoid negative social learning. If that seems like too much work, maybe it's better to realize this dream in the future.
2) getting another (stable) dog is going to enrich Pixies life or if she's going to hate it. Maybe you can do a trial run with a larger breed foster, or maybe a friend or relatives dog.

thanks for the indight here! I also see it being either very bad or difficult to manage or could be somewhat helpful. If I’m logical and honest it’s a lot more difficult no matter how I look at it (financially, time commitment, etc.). I think I have this dream of these two dogs, which many of us have before actually getting them. I do have to say I may be mentioning getting a puppy a lot as it was a dog I thought I could shape but also as mentioned is a dof that Pixie would easily teach improper behaviors over time.
I really wish I could find owners/breeders using positive reinforcement and letting me explore these options but that’s also asking a lot of people so I know fostering is the better option.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Another thing to be cautious about: dobermans have been bred to bond deeply with their handlers, but the shadow side of this is that they can often develop some separation issues or anxiety. If Pixie already shows signs of this, it might not be a good match. You could easily end up with two dogs with very different needs (walks, activities) that have trouble being separated from you. Two dogs with separation problems tend to exacerbate this particular challenge in each other. (I really like dobermans' personalities and how trainable their owner-orientation makes them, but this is something to be aware of.)

thanks for pointing this out, I always forget that the same Velcro dog characteristic I’m looking for (which Pixie has) also makes them likely to have separation anxiety or hyper attachment. It’s definitely not a situation that would be easier in life for me but again I’m still interested in exploring how I could make it happen, if at all.

 

[Schnauzaluv]

Not much help or insight, but as for taking the two for hikes/walks, you might want to try a carrying bag like this

Or a tote carrier.

When my pup Lily was too little to go for walks, I used the 1st one to bring her along with my boy (who was already 2YO) and it worked really well. Totally comfortable for a pup under 10lbs

 

[Chesterandfam]

thanks for the indight here! I also see it being either very bad or difficult to manage or could be somewhat helpful. If I’m logical and honest it’s a lot more difficult no matter how I look at it (financially, time commitment, etc.). I think I have this dream of these two dogs, which many of us have before actually getting them. I do have to say I may be mentioning getting a puppy a lot as it was a dog I thought I could shape but also as mentioned is a dof that Pixie would easily teach improper behaviors over time.
I really wish I could find owners/breeders using positive reinforcement and letting me explore these options but that’s also asking a lot of people so I know fostering is the better option.

Agreed that it's always more work to get a new puppy (or dog for that matter).

I totally get wanted to introduce a puppy to the household as a second dog for the ability to shape them, instead of adding an older one. I'm debating the same thing, but am running more into the financial aspect. Chester already costs nearly the same as housing 2 or 3 healthy great danes and I'm not ready to push my luck with adding a second potential for being a medical disaster. I know that the chances decrease drastically when buying from a good and responsible breeder, but it's never a 100% guarantee.

As far as the owners and breeders go, I hope that is going to be a matter of time, but I also realize that may be wishful thinking. And ofcourse it doesn't really help your case at this moment in time either. I hope you can come to a good decision in all of this! Best of luck!

 

[Curls]

Since you are considering a purebred, something you might look into is getting a retired adult dog from a reputable breeder or show kennel. (And I do stress reputable- a retired puppy mill breeding dog is likely to be a red hot mess.) Show breeders end up needing to rehome adult dogs for a variety of reasons: a dog they sold gets returned when its owner has a crisis, one of their breeding dogs is done with the two litters they wanted from her, etc.

A dog which has been successful in the show ring should have a reasonable temperament, proper socialization, and a solid training foundation. A dog that can't behave sensibly around strange people & dogs simply doesn't show well.

As far as finding one of these retirees - Every breed under the AKC or UKC umbrella has a national breed club. There are regional or local clubs under the national. Most of these clubs have a contact person who can tell you when the local shows are scheduled (wait until after people are done with their class before walking up to say hi) or who can direct you to a good breeder.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Not much help or insight, but as for taking the two for hikes/walks, you might want to try a carrying bag like this
View attachment 257073 View attachment 257074
Or a tote carrier.

When my pup Lily was too little to go for walks, I used the 1st one to bring her along with my boy (who was already 2YO) and it worked really well. Totally comfortable for a pup under 10lbs

Thank you for this suggestion. Pixie can keep up for a lot longer than I have ever expected but that can’t be good on her little legs long term. I was looking for something similar last year and never made up my mind.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Bringing in a puppy is different from bringing in an adult dog. I would trust my senior dog with a small dog now, but he would have been far too rough with a toy breed when he was an adolescent. Puppies like to play. Puppies also aren't always terribly good about reading "back off" signals from adult dogs. Since Pixie is right there, they will quite naturally gravitate toward her as a potential playmate. A Doberman puppy will probably be larger than she is within a month or two of arriving at your house. She might find it very distressing to deal with a huge playful puppy, even more so than dealing with the arrival of a small breed puppy.

thanks for the insight! That is something that frequently crossws my mind. just within 2-4 weeks there would probably be a noticeable size difference. plus the energy levels would be very different which I've been told is usually a bad fit.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Since you are considering a purebred, something you might look into is getting a retired adult dog from a reputable breeder or show kennel. (And I do stress reputable- a retired puppy mill breeding dog is likely to be a red hot mess.) Show breeders end up needing to rehome adult dogs for a variety of reasons: a dog they sold gets returned when its owner has a crisis, one of their breeding dogs is done with the two litters they wanted from her, etc.

A dog which has been successful in the show ring should have a reasonable temperament, proper socialization, and a solid training foundation. A dog that can't behave sensibly around strange people & dogs simply doesn't show well.

As far as finding one of these retirees - Every breed under the AKC or UKC umbrella has a national breed club. There are regional or local clubs under the national. Most of these clubs have a contact person who can tell you when the local shows are scheduled (wait until after people are done with their class before walking up to say hi) or who can direct you to a good breeder.

I’ve read about retired show dogs being a great option (if the temperament is right). While I think I know what a reputable breeder is: does proper health testing such as OFA and other metrics plus follows appropriate socialization,I have never fully understood temperament so will need to read more on that. Will add visiting dog shows to my plans!

 

[JoanneF]

Re temperament - a lot of temperament is inherited. So you'd be looking for a dog whose parents are steady and calm, and where the bitch hasn't had a stressful pregnancy.

That's pretty much simplifying it, but that's the basics of it.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Re temperament - a lot of temperament is inherited. So you'd be looking for a dog whose parents are steady and calm, and where the bitch hasn't had a stressful pregnancy.

That's pretty much simplifying it, but that's the basics of it.

Ok, thank you for that brief definition! This is precisely why I am trying to draft up a plan of everything I need to look for or avoid. It has been a lot of learning over the past two/three years and I still feel fairly naive about these topics.

 

[JoanneF]

The important thing is that you are doing that research though.

 

[nosferatuzoddpup]

Agreed that it's always more work to get a new puppy (or dog for that matter).

I totally get wanted to introduce a puppy to the household as a second dog for the ability to shape them, instead of adding an older one. I'm debating the same thing, but am running more into the financial aspect. Chester already costs nearly the same as housing 2 or 3 healthy great danes and I'm not ready to push my luck with adding a second potential for being a medical disaster. I know that the chances decrease drastically when buying from a good and responsible breeder, but it's never a 100% guarantee.

As far as the owners and breeders go, I hope that is going to be a matter of time, but I also realize that may be wishful thinking. And ofcourse it doesn't really help your case at this moment in time either. I hope you can come to a good decision in all of this! Best of luck!

Thank you for the well wishes and I hope the same for you. The biggest issue is that nothing is really certain in with dogs. It's not always bad, i.e. I considered myself a big dog person, actually still do to some degree, but Pixie changed my mind as I did not expect little dogs to have so much give. I will keep planning and trying but am always trying to remind myself I may not be able to do this now or possible until Pixie is no longer with me.