[jdj81]

. There was a thread concerning Jindos in the breed section and I owning a purebred which I raise in the city inside an apartment started a topic then was redirected here by someone who seemed to be knowledgeable. The point of the topic was that Jindos are virtually untrainable off leash and unconfined. The broad reason being that they have their own sense of what is right and what is wrong. Training is useless because food never works for him. I'd like to hear what you might have to suggest in this case.

 

[pawzaddict]

. There was a thread concerning Jindos in the breed section and I owning a purebred which I raise in the city inside an apartment started a topic then was redirected here by someone who seemed to be knowledgeable. The point of the topic was that Jindos are virtually untrainable off leash and unconfined. The broad reason being that they have their own sense of what is right and what is wrong. Training is useless because food never works for him. I'd like to hear what you might have to suggest in this case.

I don't know what a Jindo is but I don't believe the saying "Some breeds are just untrainable" I think any dog of any breed can be trained, it may just take a different approach. Does your dog have a favorite toy? A dog with its own sense of right and wrong is just a dominant dog who needs a strong pack leader IMO. Use what the dog likes as a reward and just start slow....does the dog sit or lay down? What did you use to get this behavior out of him? If the dog is not going to learn then he is not meant to be offleash.

 

[Criosphynx]

. There was a thread concerning Jindos in the breed section and I owning a purebred which I raise in the city inside an apartment started a topic then was redirected here by someone who seemed to be knowledgeable. The point of the topic was that Jindos are virtually untrainable off leash and unconfined. The broad reason being that they have their own sense of what is right and what is wrong. Training is useless because food never works for him. I'd like to hear what you might have to suggest in this case.

absolutely no animal is untrainanble.

I can guarantee you that training cats and birds and reptiles is harder than training any dog. And training those animals is done quite routinely. Just the level of skill goes up in the trainer.

There are a couple of methods.

First, like pawz mentioned is findout what your dog really wants. If your dog wont work for food a toy is a good option. Knowing Jindos you dog probably has little interest in either under normal circumstances.

As far as him not being food driven...all animals that eat are food driven.

Stop giving him free meals. Let him get a little hungry...use liver or steak as the treats. Start hand feeding the dog his meals. Even.Single.Bite. This teaches the dog that food comes from you and only you, it is no longer a free ride. This raises your value in his eyes, because now he needs you to survive. That gets a dogs attention.

Since you haven't established food as a reinforcer (let us know when you do) I'll tell you about a wonderful trick called the premack principle...

" Premack's Principle (Premack, 1959, 1963) states that more probable behaviors will reinforce less probable behaviors. Premack's Principle was derived from a study of Cebus monkeys, but has explanatory and predictive power when applied to humans. This is evidenced by the fact that therapists use the principle in behavior modification. In pedestrian terms Premack's Principle suggests that if a student wants to perform a given activity, the student will perform a less desirable activity to get at the more desirable activity. In behaviorist terms, activities become reinforcers.

Basically..you want the dog to come to you (less desireable to the dog) and he wants to keep exploring (more desireable to the dog) so when he does what you want, immediately release him back to what he was doing.

Start small, start in a neutral enviroment (like a large room inside)...have the dog on a 15 foot leash and let him wander....after a while call him too you (ONLY ONCE) and then wait.....he will eventually come to investigate you. When he does, say "yes" or "good" (give him a treat if he'lll take it) and then encourage him to go back to what he was doing. This increases the chance of it happening again each time you do this.

If he ignores you (give him a few moments at first) quitely reel him in with the leash and wait for him to look at you, when he does, say yes (treat if you can) and then release him again.

The end result will be a dog that finds you releasing them to go play more reinforcing than if they just went and played on their own. I use this for all the tough behaviors. Or dogs who I can't figure out motivation on.

Eventually the dog will stay pretty close to you on his own, OR he will come back to you frequently to "check in"
heres and example, of what it will look like eventually
YouTube - the recall game

Notice that the girl is not calling the dog (anymore) and is instead releasing him with "go ahead" and the dog comes back after a few steps all on his own. This is the idea...not to force the dog, but for the dog to think the whole thing is his idea.

Now keep in mind...there is no quick fix with this. You will have to practice inside several sessions and then in your yard (or similar place) and then eventually to a place with distractions. All on leash at first.

Once that the behavior is 100% perfect on leash you start the whole heirarchy over again without the leash, but back inside the house, then outside when distractions.

Dogs don't generalize you have to practice som'thing in 20 places (more or less) for them to really "understand" the command...its just how they are wired. Also, everytime you raise criteria, lower your standards...that first time you practice outside, you will have to be more patient, even though the dog mastered it inside. Perhaps give the dog less leash slack so he has less options for mistake.

Also management is important while you teach this. YOu can't have your dog off leash outside any more until this is taught. You will confuse the dog. Every time he practices the behavior you don't want, it is reinforced. You need to stop him from behaving how you don't like until you can install a new behavior.

I can't say how long this will take to work (depends on you! lol) but it most certainlyWILL work without food. But food will make it work faster, so I suggest you experiment and find som'thing your hungry dog will like.

if you need me to clarify anything let me know.



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[pawzaddict]

Basically..you want the dog to come to you (less desireable to the dog) and he wants to keep exploring (more desireable to the dog) so when he does what you want, immediately release him back to what he was doing.

Start small, start in a neutral enviroment (like a large room inside)...have the dog on a 15 foot leash and let him wander....after a while call him too you (ONLY ONCE) and then wait.....he will eventually come to investigate you. When he does, say "yes" or "good" (give him a treat if he'lll take it) and then encourage him to go back to what he was doing. This increases the chance of it happening again each time you do this.

If he ignores you (give him a few moments at first) quitely reel him in with the leash and wait for him to look at you, when he does, say yes (treat if you can) and then release him again.

I didn't even think of this but this was how we were taught to recall our dog. We had a huge problem with Harvick coming to us at the dog park because when we did call him and he came, it was time to go and that is what he associated "Harvick come" with (that is our command). So we would use the command and once he finally came over we told him yes and then after he sat for a couple seconds he was released, we use "go play" to release him for this scenerio. Harvick is very stubborn and has a high threshold but he eventually got this down and is our best trained dog lol

 

[fawkese1]

impossible...

. There was a thread concerning Jindos in the breed section and I owning a purebred which I raise in the city inside an apartment started a topic then was redirected here by someone who seemed to be knowledgeable. The point of the topic was that Jindos are virtually untrainable off leash and unconfined. The broad reason being that they have their own sense of what is right and what is wrong. Training is useless because food never works for him. I'd like to hear what you might have to suggest in this case.

your dog may not be food motivated and food may not be an ideal reinforcer for you, but there is no such thing as an animal that is untrainable, especially not a mammal, and even more so a mammal that lives in groups....as far as knowing "right and wrong" those are human ideas, not dog ones....it sounds like your dog is really independent and you need to redefine your relationship with him, it is important that your dog look to you for leadership, for obvious reasons...
if you need advice about your methods, you came to the right place! criosphynx has a great understanding of training methods and behaviors and how to break them down and get them to work, you should look into anything she recommends and you will see results...



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[yogi]

I can attest after 50 years of raising dogs that when it comes to recall there are some breeds simply more difficult than others. As one who breeds Miniature Pinschers (the real ones, not the mini or min pins) the true terriers. When it comes to recall, they are extremely difficult off lead. Considering they were bred as feral dogs to hunt vermin with no human interaction, this trait is extremely strong even today in this breed. It could be an issue of long tether than call and if no response pulling the dog back. Doing this repeatedly allowing a longer lead over time til the dog starts to understand.