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i'm talking about the "nono" "back up" or a loud "eehh" when the dog does something wrong, trainers like kikopup will tell you to go back a step if the dog does something wrong and repeat until you get results, other trainers like omar van muller (not as popular around here it seems, but he's very good here's his youtube channel) actually promote correcting wrong reactions on the spot with a negative cue.

how does the dogforum community feel about this? what are your experiences?
 

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i'm talking about the "nono" "back up" or a loud "eehh" when the dog does something wrong, trainers like kikopup will tell you to go back a step if the dog does something wrong and repeat until you get results, other trainers like omar van muller (not as popular around here it seems, but he's very good here's his youtube channel) actually promote correcting wrong reactions on the spot with a negative cue.

how does the dogforum community feel about this? what are your experiences?
I think as long as you aren't being aggressive or intimidating with it it's fine. My hardest issue with training Bandit is his lack of attention span so when I see him drift his attention elsewhere a gentle but somewhat loud "eh-eh-eh" is what I use to call him back to attention. He has also learned that when he does something I do not like I will say "no Sir!" and he will stop what he is doing and come sit by me. I never say it aggressively and he has never shown any negative emotions towards this so IMO it's fine.

I feel like "nono" and "back up" are perfectly okay and a loud "eehh" is possibly okay as long as the dog isn't showing any signs of being intimidated or scared. I think it's probably helpful to have a sort of "reset" for training so the dog isn't getting frustrated with the same new command.

I'm nowhere even close to a professional dog trainer, but that's just my opinion on it.

@Lucillle I don't think Garmie is anywhere close to breaking any rules, but that's really an issue for the mods.
 
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I have no problem communicating with a dog verbally to let them know what is right or wrong...not from a place of fear and intimidation but rather to get their attention and change their mental state. Pax responds amazingly to a stern "stop" when I need him to freeze or "Ah-Ah" for him to think twice about what he is doing or about to do. Both those "commands" he looks back to be for what is next...so I guess it is just another form of a "stop and look at me command".

Same as a stern "PAX...COME".
 

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It depends on the dog. I didn't teach my Malinois a negative marker until she was 18 months old. Before that, everything was done via management and re-direction.

At a certain point in training, the negative marker helped to make things clearer for her. I constantly watch her drive when we are training. I use a negative marker to communicate, not to reprimand, so the negative marker just makes her work harder to get to her reward.

For me though, if I have to use a negative marker more than a couple of times in a training session, it is a sign that I am going too fast and need to slow down.
 

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i'm talking about the "nono" "back up" or a loud "eehh" when the dog does something wrong, trainers like kikopup will tell you to go back a step if the dog does something wrong and repeat until you get results, other trainers like omar van muller (not as popular around here it seems, but he's very good here's his youtube channel) actually promote correcting wrong reactions on the spot with a negative cue.

how does the dogforum community feel about this? what are your experiences?
Ime, when using marker training no reward markers and verbal corrections are unnecessary/redundant and for some dogs can actually be quite aversive. A lack of a click and reward is more than enough to cause a clicker savvy dog to change their behavior when a mistake is made during a training session.
 

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At the end of the day, its always going to depend on the dog. I am all for communicating verbally with a dog, including communicating when they're doing the wrong thing, but there's also a lot to be said about knowing the dog you're working with and having a clear idea of what you're trying to achieve. If its more important to you to have the dog do exactly what you ask when you ask it, and you don't mind losing a little motivation, then I guess there's no downside. If motivation is most important to you, then its more dependent on the dog, IMO. I would always rather have my dog exuberantly do the wrong behavior vs do the right behavior but not have fun doing it, personally.

I do have a formal "no-reward marker" (NRM) for my dog- "Nope"- which means stop doing what you're and try something else, because what you're doing isn't going to be rewarded. I use this very sparingly, because the times when I would use it are when I'm shaping a behavior or working on distinguishing different commands and breaking her of the habit of trying to predict patterns in our training (for example, if I go from a sit to a down too often she'll just lie down when I cue a sit), and in both these situations she loses confidence and motivation very quickly if she is not getting frequent rewards or I raise criteria too quickly. I have a more informal "eh-eh-eh" and "tss" sound that both mean "think twice about what you're doing" and usually result in her looking to me for further direction, and she has a strong understanding of what the word "No" means.
 

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I have a NRM as well, but only used for non-clicking behavior (i.e. doing weaves and entering at the wrong pole). I ONLY use my NRM when the behavior is very well known and the dog maintains enthusiasm to continue trying.

If we're shaping new behaviors, I just adhere to shaping "rules" and say nothing. I don't help my dog. If we have a full minute long session where he gets frustrated and does nothing, then the next session I will lower criteria.

So far, no problems here with losing drive or enthusiasm.
 
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